If valve didn't solidify their final competitive format then why did they rush the Meet your Match update ?
Now even if they decide to pick another format they cant remove 6v6 from the game can they ?

I disagree with the premise of your question. They've been developing TF2's matchmaking since the fall of 2014 and it took them basically two years to release it, and it's still not done. They could have released it later, but they needed community input in order to a) determine which format was the most fun and b) figure out how to create a stable matchmaking system. With b) they obviously needed people to play on the system in order to figure out where the problems were, and they fixed those problems including matching you with servers in bad locations and abandoning. As far as a) goes, they couldn't decide which format was best, so they released a format that was simply 6v6 with no bans and no class limits. That format is almost certainly not the final esports format, so in the meantime they'll continue to collect user data and plan their next move. Once their move is planned, they'll make the necessary adjustments to matchmaking.

6v6 is by no means locked into the game at this time.

Sorry for being clueless but what does a "grassroot esport" mean? I want to answer the questions

xD

Grassroots movements are bottom-up, rather than top-down. A grassroots comp TF2 scene is one driven by the community as opposed to driven by the developers.

In my article I write about how comp TF2 has existed for 9 years as a grassroots esport but I think that the future of our game relies on the developers.

essentially it means continuing to promote the competitive form game without the support of the developers

ok but why would anyone want that, dota and cs were tiny and then valve supports them and now they're huge

Some people are under the impression that Valve is more interested in supporting the casual scene than they are supporting the pro/comp scene. They think that Valve balances weapons around casual gameplay and large, 12v12 servers. This actually was true for the first 8 years of the game but recently they've begun undoing 8 years of bad balancing and are now taking a closer look at the competitive game.

If Valve is trying their hardest to build a casual pub game, then yes we should continue growing our scene as a grassroots scene since we won't be getting developer support. However, if we are getting developer support, we should take it.

ok, so you suggest that we should test different things to give the TF2 team some more tangible evidence on what works and doesn't.

are you saying that if we go and test all this stuff now (despite having done it before etc) they'll take it into consideration and adjust the game based on our findings?

if yes, what inspires that sort of confidence in you?

it would be stupid to bait everyone into playing a ton of random formats only for it to have been all for naught ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

edit: you kinda ninja'd me as i was typing this slin, but still would be nice to have an answer.

for #2 I think a class limit of 2 works for most classes but not demo, medic and maybe heavy. Does it seem like valve can acknowledge this and make those classes have limits of 1 or will all classes have the same limits

I've had something to say on the TF2 team at valve and what they're doing, but it's past midnight so I'm struggling to string 2 sentences together right now. The TL;DR of it is that those 7 steps you listed is going to take valve at least another 2 years to get to step #5, where we have something worth playing, and 5 years to get to #7 where we have something that's actually reaching it's full potential.

I think we should also discuss the fact that so many gamers out there know tf2 as pubs and have no clue 6v6 is even a thing. It's hard to grow support when no one knows we exist.

When I say that we should no longer be a grassroots esport, that means giving up some control. As a grassroots esport, we call the shots, we design the game, and we figure things out for ourselves. Transitioning to a developer-designed esport means giving up that control and allowing them the creative freedom and time to create a proper game. In order for this to happen we would need to put our faith in the hands of the developers.

1) When I say "we test" I don't mean the we as competitive players. When I say that we need to test the game, I mean the greater TF2 scene needs to test the game. After all, "we" as competitive players are just a small subsection of the larger TF2 community that the developers have to worry about satisfying.
2) The developers want to see a competitive format that does well for new players as well as seasoned pros. They want an esport that is easy to pick up and play but also fun to watch at the highest levels of the game. That is how you create a good esport.
3) Our current competitive game is not exactly #2. I think our game is really hard for newbies to get into, but really fun at the highest levels. That's partially the developer's fault -- it's hard for new people to get involved in our game because of the barriers to entry. The developers need to lower those barriers and they have definitely done that by creating a matchmaking system. The system will continue to be iterated upon as long as people show interest in it.
4) With all of that said, it's on us as TF2 players to use that system and provide feedback AND SHOW INTEREST in this system to Valve. Valve won't spend time, money, and resources on something that nobody is interested in. We need to invest time in the matchmaking system in the same way that we have been calling for the community to invest time in FaceIT.
5) I don't think the community will be able to find the perfect format for Valve. I think Valve wants to figure it out for themselves, and that will frustrate comp TF2 players who don't want to wait.

This is the perfect example of #5. Some people don't have the time to wait while their esports career fades away, and that's completely understandable. I mention in the article that this is why some people have moved to Overwatch and other games. Valve is a company that is interested in the long term. They have 20 years to wait and make the perfect product. Individual players don't have that kind of time.

Many people have been predicting that Team Fortress will need a re-launch in order to re-gain interest in the franchise just like how Starcraft, Diablo, Dota, and Counterstrike did. The smart thing for the developers to do is iterate and design the perfect game before launching Team Fotress 3 (or whatever the sequel will be).

So what is growing a scene at the grassroots to you?

Look at comp.tf, look at the league histories, you will see that in 5 years signups have halved and player levels have more than halved throughout ETF2L/ESEA, can't speak for UGC but only because their website gives me eye cancer with their horrible grey outlook. The number of people playing competitively is dropping.

Stream viewers increased with the growth of Twitch, but on average I don't think I have seen TF2 numbers increase significantly apart from a once a year LAN (where it actually reduced this year). An average competitive cast gets no more than the days I casted with TF2TV with The Pledge on Own3d.TV or w/e it was called. On average in 5 years we've got like 100 more viewers per stream, excellent growth.

The scene can't grow from grassroots, I think people in this community who have tried and I have been one of them in the past have done all they can, and done excellent work but ultimately it's a losing battle. I doubt any game* put as much into a community as we have, personally I am happy with TF2 like this, I have met some of my best friends in this game, I met people I love and loved in this game and I am so happy to play this game but TF2 as an eSport is a pipe dream. My personal opinion is you are deluding yourself to think we can even exceed previous levels we built up as a "Grassroots" game a few years ago.

I commend you for trying, but it's a waste of time talking about it - Too many people disagree, too many players play this game for different reasons for anything to ever be agreed upon, Valve can pump money in and they could add Matchmaking to mirror 6v6 format as it stands but people will not play it for the same reason they don't play Leagues / PUGS / ESL / TF2Center (okay for TF2C it's because the admins are cunts) - Just isn't enough interest to bring in sizable numbers.

They can change MM to 9v9 - It would be just as bad if not worse, they can change it to something totally new and different, the most perfect balanced, fun, interesting, varied, exciting Comp MM that could ever exist....and it would still fail because people aren't interested in TF2 on the scale of other games as a competitive game. There is a reason Football is the world's most popular sport and Bowls is played by old people in retirement - One is better than the other.

I think step 1 is to figure out how many players need to be in the server. 12 seems like a decent number, but there's still some doubt (i.e. Sigafoo is hosting a 14 player per server tournament). Once the server size is determined, you can balance the classes so that you don't need class limits of 2 for some classes and class limits of 1 for others.

Remember that arbitrary class limits and weapon banlists are something that we came up with because we have no direct control over the game. The developers can always solve this with proper class balancing.

You didn't read my article. I'm not advocating for grassroots growth in my article, I'm advocating for us to help the developers to develop the competitive game since I don't think grassroots growth will work in TF2. We've tried for 9 years and it hasn't worked well.

The only reason I say that we should take a grassroots approach in post #9 is simple - if the developers won't support the comp scene, then we are the only ones who will. We'd have no choice but to go grassroots in the same way the smash community has been forced to run a grassroots esports scene for SSBM. I think that this is a terrible situation for us, but luckily we're not in that position since the developers have already shown that they are more than willing to develop the competitive game. Have no fear!

Could we balance the game to the point that the concept of generalists and specialists is mostly gone? Like maybe demo and scout just become average classes instead of god tier, and then we can see if 1 class limits for some classes are still needed

I have read it, it's the same article that has been written for 9 years and the same discussion.

Look at the numbers, we've had Valve support for Matchmaking for a while and we're still not growing - Could it be related to the fact we have a multitude of different formats and the most popular one is so boring and stale to play the only reason we still play it as a team is because one of our guys wants to play a season where we don't have a roamer and use a multitude of off-classes instead?

Unless you can persuade Mr Gaben to put up a $10,000,000 in prize money we're staying the same mate. I will bet you money in 5 years time the league size is no larger than it was in 2011.

Why though? The concept of generalists and specialists is a really good thing.

The developers aren't aiming for growth right now. They seem to be more focused on making matchmaking stable and finding the right competitive format.

Think of it like this. The developers putting money into an esport can be considered like a marketing budget for the game. If you put money into a tournament, people will learn about the tournament and become interested in the game. There's no point for Valve or any other sponsor, for that matter, to put money into TF2 because even if people were to become interested in TF2 they'd end up joining into a half-baked matchmaking system. Matchmaking needs to be fixed before they can focus on putting money into the scene and growing their game.

I'm advocating for patience and open-mindedness while the developers figure things out. That's the only choice we have anyways, since, as you mentioned, grassroots won't work.

I didn't mean to say that I think removing the concept is a good thing, I just don't know how we can get the same limits for every class if we don't balance the classes closer together so scout soldier demo and med aren't always good. Whatever change we come up with is probably going to be as close as we can get to 6s while making valve happy if class balance remains the same

it is, but the issue (from a popularity standpoint at least) is that a lot of players develop a strong affinity for a particular class. it doesnt matter to most competitive players, but it does create a lot of animosity in the community as anyone can see.

i think that it would be good if valve were to do more stuff like the gunslinger, in that a specialist class can become more generalist, but in return loses some of the strength as a specialist. (not that gunslinger was designed particularly well itself but the concept is obvious there).

Additionally, making some of the mechanically simpler classes have more challenging aim/movement abilities would make them more fun to the existing 6s community and people could be comfortable if they were best-in-slot for a particular role.

yup. played tf2 for 4 years prior to finding comp. 900 hours of casual, picked up an extra 1.5k in the year since. only found out because im a loser who browses /r/tf2.

I know I literally just said I've only been around for a year, but from what I hear people have already played (or experimented with) formats like what Valve has on the table right now. It's a nice concept, and I personally would be willing to play on a team in a league with Valve rules if there was a guarantee of some meaningful iteration, but a) there is no such guarantee and b) I imagine most people would rather quit and move to other games than wait for Valve to figure out what the fuck it's doing. I don't see why Valve can't stop ignoring what already exists and take clues about what to do from there. For every time you answer questions like

there are ten people who aren't reading or won't care. You can't type this problem away at this point unless you're a Valve employee typing up the patch notes we all want to see.

This statement is dripping with irony. They totally want the help of us clueless peons, I'm sure. There's a difference between "we want to re-test these restrictions" and "fuck you guys, our game balance is fine." I'm sure you can guess which statement I feel Valve is coming from. Somehow I don't think they're getting any good data from their matchmaking system at the moment, and I don't see what you think they want us to do to help them get that data. The solutions you have offered center around playing weird formats with the 11 friends we all have on hand who are willing to do so, with no explanation as to why the fuck would Valve care what those results of those games are. I guess you expect everyone to believe Valve reads the forums regularly? Sure, I remember that one time Jill posted. And then ignored what the thread was about with the next update.

On restrictions you go on to say "it’s interesting to at least think about it to yourself and brainstorm as a community," but I don't see what this community hasn't already thought through a thousand times.

We don't need Valve to confirm monetary support for comp. We need an indication that Valve has noticed the comp scene that does exist. As it is, it's as though they've noticed there are a few semi-famous players that they have talk to here and there since those people take it upon themselves to come and visit, but have no idea why those people are well known and still think comp TF2 is some brand new thing. It's great talking about getting the community together to help Valve make this a thing, but pretty much every single person with the experience and connections to make that happen gave up years ago. They're never coming back, you will never be able to say anything to bring them back, and the people who remain are here to play a game they already think is fun, not to fuck around with with Valve halfheartedly hoping the stupid bullshit they're putting up with will actually make some kind of difference.

I don't think that's the end-all-be-all of the situation. Seems like every time I talk to a player who doesn't want to play comp, it's either because they're not interested in comp play (in which case they're not playing ANY games competitively) or because 6s isn't "real" TF2. Player interest isn't a concrete thing. REAL Valve support would change that second group in an instant, but as of now that group doesn't care because what Valve has supported is garbage for both newbies and veterans. I don't think most people even want Valve to straight up mirror the format that currently exists, but I do think they want Valve to take it as the basis for developing the game further.

This is essentially what I was trying to put into words. This is an 11 page compilation of 9 years of discussion. The method by which Valve is forcing the community to test its formats is ridiculous. The current matchmaking system is a cesspool of variables and it's logically impossible to make sense of which variables belong in the game. There aren't even class limits. Valve has taken the game all the way back to kindergarten, where we have to actually argue for class limits in a game with 9 different specialized classes and hundreds of weapons. All these variables affect each other; the balance of three scouts per team is exacerbated by allowing all three of them to triple jump, too.

It's all well and good to "take your time" and "figure it out," but creating this system and making no notable changes to it in half a year means that it's destined for failure. Keep in mind, the only change from MM beta to release is they removed the word, "beta." The mindset of testing individual variables (impossible) can only be applied to a BETA format. If the client were open beta, and class limits, weapon stats, and map pools were all changed appropriately throughout the beta's existence, with regular input from the community, it wouldn't be a big deal. But you can't apply all of these changes to an officially released system without the community in uproar. It's entirely backwards to treat the currently released MM client as a beta that the community and developers can use as their own sandbox, when IT USED TO BE IN BETA AND NONE OF THIS HAPPENED.

I'd argue that most of the frustration from the community comes from how poorly the matchmaking system was developed, maintained, and updated. It was the final nail in the coffin for many TF2 loyalists. After years of begging and blind faith, they finally added a system that regressed the competitive format a solid 6 years and have made no steps toward rebuilding. If you think of competitive TF2 as a piece of architecture, class limits are LITERALLY THE FOUNDATION of the building. Nothing makes sense without that backbone. All items, maps, stat changes, EVERYTHING, are at the mercy of how many of each class is allowed on each team.

Do you think Valve will agree to this transition from a grassroots esport to a developer fueled one?

They've already created matchmaking -- what other indication do you need? They're creating the very thing that we want, but people aren't patient enough to wait for them to continue iterating on the game. People seem to want instant changes NOW but these things take time.

What can we do to help? Play the matchmaking game and give open feedback on the forums. Discuss things as a community. Raise awareness about issues and advocate for change. This is how you make changes in a world where you are not the developers of the game.

Definitely. They've seen what we've done as a grassroots scene and we can all agree that we haven't been able to push competitive TF2 far on our own. They're willing to help us out, they care about the competitive scene, and they're actively taking steps to develop the game as an esport (starting with creating matchmaking). They're not about to give up on the work that they've put in for the last two years.

The question is -- are people in this community willing to wait for those changes? Many people don't like playing matchmaking in its current state, and if people don't like playing matchmaking then Valve has less reason to continue developing it. I'd urge the community to play matchmaking and then voice their opinions on it openly so that everyone can hear and we can discuss it as a community.

I addressed this above. They act like they came up with the idea of competitive TF2 and are developing it like so. They've started acknowledging that TF2 could be a comp game; not that it already is one.

I thought I covered that too. There's no indication that Valve reads anything that isn't /r/tf2 outside of this hilariously bittersweet post where he only posted to let us know Valve is ignoring what we want and patching our fix.

Most of the players I talk to like to have more restrictive whitelists and class limits. The only reason people wanted certain weapons like the liberty launcher to be unbanned is that those weapons arent very good and so it wouldn't effect the game in any way.

There is this sense that valve wont do anything within a decade that will make tf2 great, and if it does it most certainly be the way of unbanning op weapons and having no class restrictions. I, and most of the people I talk to, want to keep the game the way it is, or at this point the way it was, because we know that valves involvement will either fail or turn the game into something we don't want to play.

I'm sure there are a ton of people that like the direction valve's going. To me it just seems like most fps games are going the way of having lots of characters/weapons and no limits on them. It's not wrong it's just different, but expect to see a lot more people leaving once esea is no longer their safe haven.

Maybe I'm wrong idk. I haven't really talked to higher level players/been relevant in a long time, but that's just the overall feeling I have seen. The direction of the game should be in the hands of the high level players.

E: cw & hildreth speak volumes

i remember kaidus talking on his stream about how he thought it was "cringey" or whatever that some people in tf2 were desperate for this game to become a big esport and he wanted the community to be more like the smash community or something and accept that we're small game (?)