Unlock survey results

#1

GentlemanJon

0 Frags – +

There is a tldr at the end of the 2nd post in this thread

Edit: Really short follow up survey with some whitelists the survey suggests here https://docs.google.com/forms/d/10FrzunEPluz9T6rA60hvNlQcsVefTcGIAypR56DAZJc/viewform

The survey into banned unlocks got just short of 200 responses. Given the length of the survey this is good, and given the size of the competitive community this is highly representative, it’s as if a political poll in the US were filled in by 10s of millions of people.

There will be an element of selection bias in terms of those who filled it out probably strongly adhering to a specific agenda, but this is extremely hard to quantify. Any interpretation should probably be slightly softened to account for this, but still there are some very clear indicators.

We will also learn why Sun-on-a-stick might be the most important unlock in competitive TF2.

The Classics

Let’s start on a positive note. Some unlocks received overwhelming positive support, clearly improve the game and get a lot of use. They are:

Gunboats
Kritzkrieg
Boston Basher
Ubersaw
Pain-Train
Iron Bomber

Iron Bomber might be a bit of a surprise inclusion but it’s viewed very favourably and is generally welcomed. The Overdose was also given a lot of agreeable coverage, but it’s hardly ever used due to the dominance of the Crossbow.

Other unlocks that were strongly judged to have an overall positive impact on the game but weren’t quite in the same class are:

Crusaders Crossbow
Cloak and Dagger
L’Etranger
Concheror
Ambassador
Black Box

The Crossbow is the most controversial of these having a lot of fans but some hardcore opponents as well (it had the highest deviation of scoring amongst any generally positively perceived unlock). However although it’s detractors may be highly vocal on the forums, it receives clear support here. I’ll go into the Crossbow voting breakdown later.

Ban this filth!

Just as some unlocks seem to receive universal support, some are the target of opprobrium. The following unlocks were on average rated as “disagree” or worse to the question “this unlock should be allowed in 6v6”. On a scale from 1 to 5 I’ve picked out those that scored less than 2.5 on average and are therefore below the range of “unsure” and would be rounded down.

Pomson 6000
Natascha
Beggars Bazooka
Jarate
Air Strike
Diamondback
Baby Face’s Blaster
Frontier Justice
Brass Beast
Tide Turner
Chargin Targe
Splendid Screen
Loch-n-load
Wrap Assassin
Back Scatter
Machina
Gunslinger
Phlogistinator
Ullapool Caber

Your pet hate may or may not be on the list, but it seems like a lot of these are predictable - demoknight, unlocks giving crits, unlocks affecting movement and weird random shit.

However some of them are rarely played. Adjusting for the amount that players report facing them we can create a misery caused index of which the top 10 are:

Jarate
Natascha
Machina
Loch-n-load
--------------------
Pomson 6000
Gunslinger
Chargin Targe
Air Strike
Diamondback
Brass Beast

If Pomson is the mechanic everyone hates, Jarate is the unlock that causes the most grief closely followed by Natascha. Getting rid of the unlocks in this list (although only the top 4 have above average utilisation, above the dotted line) would probably produce the biggest quality of life improvement for the most players if you were only to make minimal changes.

A lot of players may think Gunslinger is somewhat benign but it’s no surprise to discover that scouts in particular hate this unlock and the mini sentries that go with it.

http://i.imgur.com/uR1JIkB.png

I should make it clear though that respondents that identified themselves as scout almost universally dislike all unlocks more than anyone else, often even their own.

Honourably bad mentions go to the Vaccinator and Cow Mangler. Their usage rates would actually give them quite high entries on the Misery Index if their overall inclusion scores hadn't just scraped them into average unlock rating territory. I'm still not sure if this is the right way to go about it, but these are the kinds of edge cases that make a statistics based approach potentially unreliable

Bones of Contention

Averages will only get you so far of course. Some unlocks are the source of divided opinion and that in itself can be an acceptable reason to consider an unlock ban to protect the innocent from the tyranny of the majority.

Rocket Jumper
Sticky Jumper
Sun-on-a-stick
Cow Mangler 5000
Market Gardener
Dead Ringer
Huntsman
Holiday Punch
Classic
Backburner
Crusaders Crossbow
Fan O’War
Killing Gloves of Boxing
Direct Hit
Your Eternal Reward
Sandvich
Righteous Bison
Ali Baba’s Wee Booties
Force-A-Nature
Bushwaka
Mantreads

Just like the disliked list above, many of these items rarely see any play. Sun-on-a-stick, Holiday Punch and Your Eternal Reward for example. Who so controversial then?

If we look at usage rates combined with variance of opinion we can finally see why the not particularly controversial Crossbow is the subject of such debate

Crusaders Crossbow
Cow Mangler 5000
Market Gardener
Direct Hit
Sandvich
Bushwaka
Huntsman
Ali Babas Wee Booties
Dead Ringer
Force-A-Nature

Of these only the Crossbow, Market Gardener and Wee Booties are above average in terms of being allowed, with the Crossbow clearly above that. Let’s take a look at the Crossbow in more detail to see why it’s so controversial.

http://i.imgur.com/1J85JM0.png

One reason is that although it is generally positively viewed by everyone else, it is massively popular amongst medics, but the population that identified themselves as medics is too small to create a large scale imbalance themselves.

The other group that drove up the controversy score on this one were scouts, in particular NA scouts. Even so despite opinions being very split, the overall trend was to a positive perception even among this group.

Looking at the Cow Mangler (which is much more typical of all unlocks in this list) it’s a little different

http://i.imgur.com/59hfyHH.png

It’s much less popular, and for some reason Demo players are bumping this thing up as a group. But as with the Crossbow although you can see some groups have differing opinions either way, the items themselves simply seem to be controversial in their nature.

There is a fundamental split in opinion on the allowing of some unlocks that we will explore next.

There is a tldr at the end of the 2nd post in this thread

Edit: [i]Really short[/i] follow up survey with some whitelists the survey suggests here https://docs.google.com/forms/d/10FrzunEPluz9T6rA60hvNlQcsVefTcGIAypR56DAZJc/viewform

The survey into banned unlocks got just short of 200 responses. Given the length of the survey this is good, and given the size of the competitive community this is highly representative, it’s as if a political poll in the US were filled in by 10s of millions of people.

There will be an element of selection bias in terms of those who filled it out probably strongly adhering to a specific agenda, but this is extremely hard to quantify. Any interpretation should probably be slightly softened to account for this, but still there are some very clear indicators.

We will also learn why Sun-on-a-stick might be the most important unlock in competitive TF2.

[b]The Classics[/b]

Let’s start on a positive note. Some unlocks received overwhelming positive support, clearly improve the game and get a lot of use. They are:

Gunboats
Kritzkrieg
Boston Basher
Ubersaw
Pain-Train
Iron Bomber

Iron Bomber might be a bit of a surprise inclusion but it’s viewed very favourably and is generally welcomed. The Overdose was also given a lot of agreeable coverage, but it’s hardly ever used due to the dominance of the Crossbow.

Other unlocks that were strongly judged to have an overall positive impact on the game but weren’t quite in the same class are:

Crusaders Crossbow
Cloak and Dagger
L’Etranger
Concheror
Ambassador
Black Box

The Crossbow is the most controversial of these having a lot of fans but some hardcore opponents as well (it had the highest deviation of scoring amongst any generally positively perceived unlock). However although it’s detractors may be highly vocal on the forums, it receives clear support here. I’ll go into the Crossbow voting breakdown later.

[b]Ban this filth![/b]

Just as some unlocks seem to receive universal support, some are the target of opprobrium. The following unlocks were on average rated as “disagree” or worse to the question “this unlock should be allowed in 6v6”. On a scale from 1 to 5 I’ve picked out those that scored less than 2.5 on average and are therefore below the range of “unsure” and would be rounded down.

Pomson 6000
Natascha
Beggars Bazooka
Jarate
Air Strike
Diamondback
Baby Face’s Blaster
Frontier Justice
Brass Beast
Tide Turner
Chargin Targe
Splendid Screen
Loch-n-load
Wrap Assassin
Back Scatter
Machina
Gunslinger
Phlogistinator
Ullapool Caber

Your pet hate may or may not be on the list, but it seems like a lot of these are predictable - demoknight, unlocks giving crits, unlocks affecting movement and weird random shit.

However some of them are rarely played. Adjusting for the amount that players report facing them we can create a misery caused index of which the top 10 are:

Jarate
Natascha
Machina
Loch-n-load
--------------------
Pomson 6000
Gunslinger
Chargin Targe
Air Strike
Diamondback
Brass Beast

If Pomson is the mechanic everyone hates, Jarate is the unlock that causes the most grief closely followed by Natascha. Getting rid of the unlocks in this list (although only the top 4 have above average utilisation, above the dotted line) would probably produce the biggest quality of life improvement for the most players if you were only to make minimal changes.

A lot of players may think Gunslinger is somewhat benign but it’s no surprise to discover that scouts in particular hate this unlock and the mini sentries that go with it.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/uR1JIkB.png[/img]

I should make it clear though that respondents that identified themselves as scout almost universally dislike all unlocks more than anyone else, often even their own.

Honourably bad mentions go to the Vaccinator and Cow Mangler. Their usage rates would actually give them quite high entries on the Misery Index if their overall inclusion scores hadn't just scraped them into average unlock rating territory. I'm still not sure if this is the right way to go about it, but these are the kinds of edge cases that make a statistics based approach potentially unreliable

[b]Bones of Contention[/b]

Averages will only get you so far of course. Some unlocks are the source of divided opinion and that in itself can be an acceptable reason to consider an unlock ban to protect the innocent from the tyranny of the majority.

Rocket Jumper
Sticky Jumper
Sun-on-a-stick
Cow Mangler 5000
Market Gardener
Dead Ringer
Huntsman
Holiday Punch
Classic
Backburner
Crusaders Crossbow
Fan O’War
Killing Gloves of Boxing
Direct Hit
Your Eternal Reward
Sandvich
Righteous Bison
Ali Baba’s Wee Booties
Force-A-Nature
Bushwaka
Mantreads

Just like the disliked list above, many of these items rarely see any play. Sun-on-a-stick, Holiday Punch and Your Eternal Reward for example. Who so controversial then?

If we look at usage rates combined with variance of opinion we can finally see why the not particularly controversial Crossbow is the subject of such debate

Crusaders Crossbow
Cow Mangler 5000
Market Gardener
Direct Hit
Sandvich
Bushwaka
Huntsman
Ali Babas Wee Booties
Dead Ringer
Force-A-Nature

Of these only the Crossbow, Market Gardener and Wee Booties are above average in terms of being allowed, with the Crossbow clearly above that. Let’s take a look at the Crossbow in more detail to see why it’s so controversial.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/1J85JM0.png[/img]

One reason is that although it is generally positively viewed by everyone else, it is massively popular amongst medics, but the population that identified themselves as medics is too small to create a large scale imbalance themselves.

The other group that drove up the controversy score on this one were scouts, in particular NA scouts. Even so despite opinions being very split, the overall trend was to a positive perception even among this group.

Looking at the Cow Mangler (which is much more typical of all unlocks in this list) it’s a little different

[img]http://i.imgur.com/59hfyHH.png[/img]

It’s much less popular, and for some reason Demo players are bumping this thing up as a group. But as with the Crossbow although you can see some groups have differing opinions either way, the items themselves simply seem to be controversial in their nature.

There is a fundamental split in opinion on the allowing of some unlocks that we will explore next.

#2

GentlemanJon

27 Frags – +

WTF why?

There are some unlocks that are never used and add nothing to the game - the voting proves it. So do we ban or allow? No harm no foul right? By combining utilisation rate and low scores we can come up with a WTF score for each unlock. There are a shit load of candidates here so I’ll just give you the top 10:

Sun-on-a-stick
Panic Attack
Sharpened Volcano Fragment
Candy Cane
Neon Annihilator
Manmelter
Third Degree
Mantreads
Baby Faces Blaster
Holiday Punch

Of these only the Baby Face’s Blaster has an actual mechanic anyone cares about, as it appeared on the Ban This Filth list. Even though it’s considered bannable, nobody uses it. The Sun-on-a-stick was listed as one of the most controversial unlocks - why would an item with no appreciable effect on the game that nobody uses arouse such polarised voting patterns?

http://i.imgur.com/ywsPLVi.png

The answer of course is that it lies at the heart of the great philosophical debate in unlocks and 6v6 - why allow pointless shit when it can only be used to fuck up pugs, troll your team and generally make everybody’s day worse? The answer is that those players are just going to offclass to spy or pyro and generally Sideshow things up anyway, right?

It’s a difficult point to talk around, and I think this is partly caused by selection bias. I would hypothesise that people who feel strongly about this particular argument have over represented themselves in this survey. The controversy about things like Cow Mangler and the Crossbow are real and different because those unlocks get a lot of use.

The controversy over the Sun-on-a-stick is a philosophical debate between a point of view that promises unspecified benefits if we allow it and better quality play right now if we don’t, frequently by people who claim to have insight into the pubber’s mindset or Valve’s mindset and claim it for both sides of the debate.

These sides aren’t organised and they will often sway based on playing experience, but there is a weird tension amongst respondents on these unlocks that see almost no play and have minimal effect on the game.

My only comment is that whitelist decisions made along these lines by the 6v6 community have very little importance to Valve. That’s not the same as saying they don’t care, but where a competitive scene’s opinions meets with the game design that created a fun item that is very low powered, that isn’t a place where productive data emerges.

Other bits

Generally speaking there was little difference between EU and NA on whether most unlocks should be allowed, but there were some exceptions. The main sources of intercontinental beef were:

Battalion’s Backup: EU thinks it’s sort of good, NA thinks it’s very average
Iron Bomber: EU thinks it’s good, NA thinks it’s on the verge of greatness
Quickiebomb Launcher: EU think it’s sort of good, NA thinks it’s very average

So if anyone wants a knock down drag out fight to settle this great divide of the western hemisphere, the battle lines have been drawn.

Also respondents that identified as Medics were almost always the most permissive group on allowing unlocks.

Conclusions

>>>>>>>> tldr right here folks <<<<<<<<<

There are a few different options as a result of this dataset:

Continue with the global whitelist as it is
Modify it to get rid of the worst offenders, but keep a generally permissive attitude - no harm no foul http://whitelist.tf/7181
Keep a permissive attitude, get rid of the worst offenders but also ban controversial unlocks that are used frequently - equal rights http://whitelist.tf/7182
Hack it right back to keep only the cream of the crop unlocks, no controversial items - unlock purification http://whitelist.tf/7185
Ban everything, unlocks never happened, give me my grenades, stickies and rockets back

And I’ve made a follow up survey. It’s really short!

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/10FrzunEPluz9T6rA60hvNlQcsVefTcGIAypR56DAZJc/viewform

Edit: "Should this be allowed" scores can be viewed here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RVB75GeIWg9VjLiSR8V-mts0C3pQPaUD9NCIxBwdAJA

[b]WTF why?[/b]

There are some unlocks that are never used and add nothing to the game - the voting proves it. So do we ban or allow? No harm no foul right? By combining utilisation rate and low scores we can come up with a WTF score for each unlock. There are a shit load of candidates here so I’ll just give you the top 10:

Sun-on-a-stick
Panic Attack
Sharpened Volcano Fragment
Candy Cane
Neon Annihilator
Manmelter
Third Degree
Mantreads
Baby Faces Blaster
Holiday Punch

Of these only the Baby Face’s Blaster has an actual mechanic anyone cares about, as it appeared on the Ban This Filth list. Even though it’s considered bannable, nobody uses it. The Sun-on-a-stick was listed as one of the most controversial unlocks - why would an item with no appreciable effect on the game that nobody uses arouse such polarised voting patterns?

[img]http://i.imgur.com/ywsPLVi.png[/img]

The answer of course is that it lies at the heart of the great philosophical debate in unlocks and 6v6 - why allow pointless shit when it can only be used to fuck up pugs, troll your team and generally make everybody’s day worse? The answer is that those players are just going to offclass to spy or pyro and generally Sideshow things up anyway, right?

It’s a difficult point to talk around, and I think this is partly caused by selection bias. I would hypothesise that people who feel strongly about this particular argument have over represented themselves in this survey. The controversy about things like Cow Mangler and the Crossbow are real and different because those unlocks get a lot of use.

The controversy over the Sun-on-a-stick is a philosophical debate between a point of view that promises unspecified benefits if we allow it and better quality play right now if we don’t, frequently by people who claim to have insight into the pubber’s mindset or Valve’s mindset and claim it for both sides of the debate.

These sides aren’t organised and they will often sway based on playing experience, but there is a weird tension amongst respondents on these unlocks that see almost no play and have minimal effect on the game.

My only comment is that whitelist decisions made along these lines by the 6v6 community have very little importance to Valve. That’s not the same as saying they don’t care, but where a competitive scene’s opinions meets with the game design that created a fun item that is very low powered, that isn’t a place where productive data emerges.

[b]Other bits[/b]

Generally speaking there was little difference between EU and NA on whether most unlocks should be allowed, but there were some exceptions. The main sources of intercontinental beef were:

Battalion’s Backup: EU thinks it’s sort of good, NA thinks it’s very average
Iron Bomber: EU thinks it’s good, NA thinks it’s on the verge of greatness
Quickiebomb Launcher: EU think it’s sort of good, NA thinks it’s very average

So if anyone wants a knock down drag out fight to settle this great divide of the western hemisphere, the battle lines have been drawn.

Also respondents that identified as Medics were almost always the most permissive group on allowing unlocks.

[b]Conclusions[/b]

[b]>>>>>>>> tldr right here folks <<<<<<<<<[/b]

There are a few different options as a result of this dataset:

[list]
[*] Continue with the global whitelist as it is
[*] Modify it to get rid of the worst offenders, but keep a generally permissive attitude - no harm no foul http://whitelist.tf/7181
[*] Keep a permissive attitude, get rid of the worst offenders but also ban controversial unlocks that are used frequently - equal rights http://whitelist.tf/7182
[*] Hack it right back to keep only the cream of the crop unlocks, no controversial items - unlock purification http://whitelist.tf/7185
[*] Ban everything, unlocks never happened, give me my grenades, stickies and rockets back
[/list]

And I’ve made a follow up survey. It’s really short!

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/10FrzunEPluz9T6rA60hvNlQcsVefTcGIAypR56DAZJc/viewform

Edit: "Should this be allowed" scores can be viewed here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RVB75GeIWg9VjLiSR8V-mts0C3pQPaUD9NCIxBwdAJA

#3

Phantom

0 Frags – +

Great job collecting and summarizing the data. I'm interested how the vocal opinion seems to be that crossbow sucks yet the survey shows otherwise

#4

snazzy

CappingTV

12 Frags – +

the way that it shows how different classes think about xbow genuinely interests me more than i can explain

#5

Hal

20 Frags – +

No Escape Plan for the "shorter whitelist with only the best unlocks on it, no controversial unlocks?"

I went with that whitelist, on the assumption that you meant to allow the Escape Plan instead of the Equalizer.

No Escape Plan for the "shorter whitelist with only the best unlocks on it, no controversial unlocks?"

I went with that whitelist, on the assumption that you meant to allow the Escape Plan instead of the Equalizer.

#6

viper

2 Frags – +

interesting compilation of data jon, hopefully the league admins will take this data into account when/if the whitelist is revised for esea s25/etf2l s27

#7

GentlemanJon

5 Frags – +

HalNo Escape Plan for the "shorter whitelist with only the best unlocks on it, no controversial unlocks?"

I went with that whitelist, on the assumption that you meant to allow the Escape Plan instead of the Equalizer.

Yeah if I've obviously fucked things up but it looks like the direction you like then please use your discretion :) Nothing here is binding.

Edit: Looking at it again it's possible I missed the Escape Plan off the original survey. This is obviously universally used and not controversial so I'll generate a new whitelist and stick it on and edit stuff accordingly.

[quote=Hal]No Escape Plan for the "shorter whitelist with only the best unlocks on it, no controversial unlocks?"

I went with that whitelist, on the assumption that you meant to allow the Escape Plan instead of the Equalizer.[/quote]
Yeah if I've obviously fucked things up but it looks like the direction you like then please use your discretion :) Nothing here is binding.

Edit: Looking at it again it's possible I missed the Escape Plan off the original survey. This is obviously universally used and not controversial so I'll generate a new whitelist and stick it on and edit stuff accordingly.

#8

adysky

47 Frags – +

why is vaccinator not mentioned anywhere in this article, thats the weapon that needs to be banned first

#9

Zesty

19 Frags – +

How has the vacc not been mentioned at all here when its one of the most contentious unlocks at the moment- was it not on the original survey or do most people really not care?
wow ninja'd by ady

#10

GentlemanJon

2 Frags – +

adyskywhy is vaccinator not mentioned anywhere in this article, thats the weapon that needs to be banned first

The Vacc is just above the (admittedly somewhat arbitrary) threshold for being banned. Basically it's unpopular but it's score would round up to average so it's just scraped into the "meh" group. There is scope for a couple more middle ground whitelists that would do away with a load of other unpopular items but I didn't want to just keep making loads of them.

The ones I've put up for voting are pretty clearly differentiated so maybe there's scope for a 2nd round where some finer judgements can be made.

Edit: if the Misery Index wasn't restricted to items below the score threshold for hitting the average score sanctuary area both the Cow Mangler and the Vaccinator would be on it. I'll add that to the description... not sure if they should be off the worst offenders whitelist though as they do have some support and their scores are within a standard error of being fine.

[quote=adysky]why is vaccinator not mentioned anywhere in this article, thats the weapon that needs to be banned first[/quote]
The Vacc is just above the (admittedly somewhat arbitrary) threshold for being banned. Basically it's unpopular but it's score would round up to average so it's just scraped into the "meh" group. There is scope for a couple more middle ground whitelists that would do away with a load of other unpopular items but I didn't want to just keep making loads of them.

The ones I've put up for voting are pretty clearly differentiated so maybe there's scope for a 2nd round where some finer judgements can be made.

Edit: if the Misery Index wasn't restricted to items below the score threshold for hitting the average score sanctuary area both the Cow Mangler and the Vaccinator would be on it. I'll add that to the description... not sure if they should be off the worst offenders whitelist though as they do have some support and their scores are within a standard error of being fine.

#11

crackbabydumpster

-35 Frags – +

i like how euros havent figured out that if the other team goes vacc on last holds you get infinite full uber charge pushes against a team with no buffs

#12

Permzilla

58 Frags – +

saami like how euros havent figured out that if the other team goes vacc on last holds you get infinite full uber charge pushes against a team with no buffs

I'll take things people who havent played against vaccinator say for 500 Alex

[quote=saam]i like how euros havent figured out that if the other team goes vacc on last holds you get infinite full uber charge pushes against a team with no buffs[/quote]

I'll take things people who havent played against vaccinator say for 500 Alex

#13

Beater

Chief Video Editor

2 Frags – +

saami like how euros havent figured out that if the other team goes vacc on last holds you get infinite full uber charge pushes against a team with no buffs

Yeah, unless your medic dies and they pick up your medi-gun. The vaccinator gives you a chance to hold when you otherwise would have had a very poor chance.

[quote=saam]i like how euros havent figured out that if the other team goes vacc on last holds you get infinite full uber charge pushes against a team with no buffs[/quote]

Yeah, unless your medic dies and they pick up your medi-gun. The vaccinator gives you a chance to hold when you otherwise would have had a very poor chance.

#14

tsar

-5 Frags – +

i was about to vote tonight. rip

that being said, i think that we should look at the results from people who have played with the crossbow. we really need to do more testing to see how the game is played without the xbow. it seems that the people who have played without the xbow seem to really like playing without it.

i think we should try to play without it more to properly create opinions

i was about to vote tonight. rip

that being said, i think that we should look at the results from people who have played with the crossbow. we really need to do more testing to see how the game is played without the xbow. it seems that the people who have played without the xbow seem to really like playing without it.

i think we should try to play without it more to properly create opinions

#15

smitty_

-3 Frags – +

edit* read da rulez oops

Also look at all those demos who want the cow mangler in because their tiny brain soldiers mindlessly spam rockets, screw up your traps so you have to reset them and steal all the ammo packs.

edit* read da rulez oops

Also look at all those demos who want the cow mangler in because their tiny brain soldiers mindlessly spam rockets, screw up your traps so you have to reset them and steal all the ammo packs.

#16

nope

9 Frags – +

smitty_Also look at all those demos who want the cow mangler in because their tiny brain soldiers mindlessly spam rockets, screw up your traps so you have to reset them and steal all the ammo packs.

Yeah I was just about to post this, that's why demos like the cow mangler.

I absolutely viscerally hate the concept of the weapon itself but I'm perfectly happy when my pocket runs it because it means I pretty much never run out of ammo.

[quote=smitty_]Also look at all those demos who want the cow mangler in because their tiny brain soldiers mindlessly spam rockets, screw up your traps so you have to reset them and steal all the ammo packs.[/quote]
Yeah I was just about to post this, that's why demos like the cow mangler.

I absolutely viscerally hate the concept of the weapon itself but I'm perfectly happy when my pocket runs it because it means I pretty much never run out of ammo.

#17

WML

-9 Frags – +

-Phantom-Great job collecting and summarizing the data. I'm interested how the vocal opinion seems to be that crossbow sucks yet the survey shows otherwise

The survey was made before the Crossbow talk really started so a majority of people who went through the survey didnt have that mentality beforehand.

Edit: Downfragging a true statement kk

[quote=-Phantom-]Great job collecting and summarizing the data. I'm interested how the vocal opinion seems to be that crossbow sucks yet the survey shows otherwise[/quote]

The survey was made before the Crossbow talk really started so a majority of people who went through the survey didnt have that mentality beforehand.

Edit: Downfragging a true statement kk

#18

Vipa

3 Frags – +

maybe its because I started playing after the crossbow was introduced but I honestly can't imagine playing medic without it. It already takes a special kind of person to play medic all the time and stay sane (not me) and I'm pretty sure if it got banned that would be even more true

#19

Raelyn

2 Frags – +

I enjoy what Medic's all about, but I gotta have something mechanically fun as well. I enjoy playing Medic in 6s mainly because of the Crossbow. If it's banned, I doubt I'll want to play it as much.

#20

glass

4 Frags – +

million dollar question: how much of this did sideshow read

#21

frenzy_

1 Frags – +

hey valve look at this shit, we are trying to help you guys out

#22

Walrex

16 Frags – +

i still can't comprehend how jarate isn't banned right now

#23

bearodactyl

-8 Frags – +

Keep a permissive attitude, get rid of the worst offenders but also ban controversial unlocks that are used frequently - equal rights http://whitelist.tf/7182

- alright dude you're on meth if you think the direct hit should be banned its literally only good if you have perfect aim and even then its not really more broken than a sniper hitting every huntsman headshot or spy hitting every amby headshot or some other highly aim based weapon
- same with the market gardener it's got a huge skill ceiling and technically is a direct upgrade from stock but compared to the escape plan it's much more of a gimmick high risk low percentage of reward (for some reason euros tend to run it a lot more than in na, i wonder why... do they like gimmicks?)
- air strike and beggars are good memes like 1% of the time definitely don't need to be banned
- honestly have no idea why you banned the fan and back scatter they're not nearly as good as scatter aside from a few niche scenarios
- phlogistinator is a dumb meme but you don't have airblast so imo its not really overpowered as the main use of pyro class is hitting m2 (or getting ubered with it if you're sideshow and are fucking around)
- booties are def not overpowered or worth banning (imo loch n load is the same but its debatable)
- unless you're a pub fascist and hate fun (tsc) the shields shouldn't be banned either
- the caber got nerfed and cant 1 shot a medic anymore so idk about banning it (in either this or the slightly less strict whitelist)
- both the tomislav and natascha are kinda dumb for their own reasons but idk if they're really meta breaking and worth banning
- sandvich is kinda dumb imo but it didnt completely disrupt the meta or anything
- banning the crossbow is debatable but definitely controversial lol
- huntsman is not good enough to be banned
- not sure why you banned dead ringer its not really even good

none of these options allows for the banning of stupid shit like cow mangler, jarate, machina (mini sentries are debatable), while still allowing non-controvertial things like dh
i propose we have an actual discussion between invite captains and people from various regions instead of letting supreme ruler GentlemanJon give us a list of 5 predetermined options and say its my way or the highway

[quote]Keep a permissive attitude, get rid of the worst offenders but also ban controversial unlocks that are used frequently - equal rights http://whitelist.tf/7182[/quote]
- alright dude you're on meth if you think the direct hit should be banned its literally only good if you have perfect aim and even then its not really more broken than a sniper hitting every huntsman headshot or spy hitting every amby headshot or some other highly aim based weapon
- same with the market gardener it's got a huge skill ceiling and technically is a direct upgrade from stock but compared to the escape plan it's much more of a gimmick high risk low percentage of reward (for some reason euros tend to run it a lot more than in na, i wonder why... do they like gimmicks?)
- air strike and beggars are good memes like 1% of the time definitely don't need to be banned
- honestly have no idea why you banned the fan and back scatter they're not nearly as good as scatter aside from a few niche scenarios
- phlogistinator is a dumb meme but you don't have airblast so imo its not really overpowered as the main use of pyro class is hitting m2 (or getting ubered with it if you're sideshow and are fucking around)
- booties are def not overpowered or worth banning (imo loch n load is the same but its debatable)
- unless you're a pub fascist and hate fun (tsc) the shields shouldn't be banned either
- the caber got nerfed and cant 1 shot a medic anymore so idk about banning it (in either this or the slightly less strict whitelist)
- both the tomislav and natascha are kinda dumb for their own reasons but idk if they're really meta breaking and worth banning
- sandvich is kinda dumb imo but it didnt completely disrupt the meta or anything
- banning the crossbow is debatable but definitely controversial lol
- huntsman is not good enough to be banned
- not sure why you banned dead ringer its not really even good

none of these options allows for the banning of stupid shit like cow mangler, jarate, machina (mini sentries are debatable), while still allowing non-controvertial things like dh
i propose we have an actual discussion between invite captains and people from various regions instead of letting supreme ruler GentlemanJon give us a list of 5 predetermined options and say its my way or the highway

#24

alle

38 Frags – +

ban everything

#25

crackbabydumpster

19 Frags – +

y don't we let invite and prem players decide the whitelist instead of whoever the fuck has enough time to fill out a 600 question survey

#26

Freud

7 Frags – +

Pretty sure we tried that and ended up with this

Pretty sure we tried that and ended up with [url=http://whitelist.tf/competitive_6v6]this[/url]

#27

Moist_Penguin

11 Frags – +

bearodactyli propose we have an actual discussion between invite captains and people from various regions instead of letting supreme ruler GentlemanJon give us a list of 5 predetermined options and say its my way or the highway

Where does Jon say these are the only options, he merely suggests these as that is what he has interpreted from his data. There is still any combination of weapon bans for a league to decide on. The whole point of this survey was to find out what the community thinks and try and make some interpretations from it. This survey is just a tool to help leagues make decisions not the be all and end all.

At least in etf2l we are talking to the prem players about whitelists and map pools which is one of the things we have to help inform us about our decisions just like this survey is.

[quote=bearodactyl]
i propose we have an actual discussion between invite captains and people from various regions instead of letting supreme ruler GentlemanJon give us a list of 5 predetermined options and say its my way or the highway[/quote]

Where does Jon say these are the only options, he merely suggests these as that is what he has interpreted from his data. There is still any combination of weapon bans for a league to decide on. The whole point of this survey was to find out what the community thinks and try and make some interpretations from it. This survey is just a tool to help leagues make decisions not the be all and end all.

At least in etf2l we are talking to the prem players about whitelists and map pools which is one of the things we have to help inform us about our decisions just like this survey is.

#28

corsa

27 Frags – +

FreudPretty sure we tried that and ended up with this

it is quite clear that slin's original suggestion followed up with b4nny's delusionally optimistic attitude of tf2 was the only reason that whitelist became a thing. that would not happen again if legitimate invite/prem players came to a conclusion in this offseason. in fact, i would gaurantee that 90% of the unlocks would be banned if everybody but b4nny showed up.

[quote=Freud]Pretty sure we tried that and ended up with [url=http://whitelist.tf/competitive_6v6]this[/url][/quote]

it is quite clear that slin's original suggestion followed up with b4nny's delusionally optimistic attitude of tf2 was the only reason that whitelist became a thing. that would not happen again if legitimate invite/prem players came to a conclusion in this offseason. in fact, i would gaurantee that 90% of the unlocks would be banned if everybody but b4nny showed up.

#29

jrod

-24 Frags – +

y is corsa so mad at everything and everyone

#30

crackbabydumpster

32 Frags – +

Because he's played two full seasons of high level competitive TF2 with the jarate allowed.