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How to Get to In-Game Comp Lobbies
271
#271
2 Frags +

I don't know about you guys but pick/bans in TF2 has got to be one of the silliest ideas they could come up with. How is this possibly going to work when they don't even bother to balance weapons?

I don't know about you guys but pick/bans in TF2 has got to be one of the silliest ideas they could come up with. How is this possibly going to work when they don't even bother to balance weapons?
272
#272
5 Frags +

.

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273
#273
3 Frags +

Dear Sal

I'm sure that this has probably been thought of before but I would like to direct this to you sal so you can hopefully pass this idea on the to the folk at Valve. I have long thought the way to create the best exposure to the competitive side of TF2 is to add one button on the front page of TF2 that links you to the streams done by TFTV or VTV. Wouldnt it be great if all prem ETF2L and top UGC matches were advertised on the front page? Think of the thouands of people that would watch then? If not league matches at the very least this should be done for the epic event that will be I49.

Dear Sal

I'm sure that this has probably been thought of before but I would like to direct this to you sal so you can hopefully pass this idea on the to the folk at Valve. I have long thought the way to create the best exposure to the competitive side of TF2 is to add one button on the front page of TF2 that links you to the streams done by TFTV or VTV. Wouldnt it be great if all prem ETF2L and top UGC matches were advertised on the front page? Think of the thouands of people that would watch then? If not league matches at the very least this should be done for the epic event that will be I49.
274
#274
7 Frags +

I remember for one day STAR_ actually changed his server to tournament mode and it was the most fun I ever had pubbing. People were communicating and working together, especially in stopwatch games. If this even remotely captures that feeling again it would be awesome.

I remember for one day STAR_ actually changed his server to tournament mode and it was the most fun I ever had pubbing. People were communicating and working together, especially in stopwatch games. If this even remotely captures that feeling again it would be awesome.
275
#275
3 Frags +

#273 They don't even link to streams in DOTA, apparently. They don't want to take the risk that someone is displaying something graphic or otherwise NSFW.

#273 They don't even link to streams in DOTA, apparently. They don't want to take the risk that someone is displaying something graphic or otherwise NSFW.
276
#276
-1 Frags +

I made this group steamcommunity.com/groups/PickPugs/. I'd like to get enough people to run a few HL PUGs by banning a few weapons from each team. I don't have a server or mumble yet, I'll get that sorted out if there is enough interest.

I made this group steamcommunity.com/groups/PickPugs/. I'd like to get enough people to run a few HL PUGs by banning a few weapons from each team. I don't have a server or mumble yet, I'll get that sorted out if there is enough interest.
277
#277
2 Frags +

#bringback8v8in2013

#bringback8v8in2013
278
#278
1 Frags +

This is wonderful :o

Hopefully Competitive TF2 will finally get some publicity!

This is wonderful :o

Hopefully Competitive TF2 will finally get some publicity!
279
#279
1 Frags +
jaybenaduchiI don't know about you guys but pick/bans in TF2 has got to be one of the silliest ideas they could come up with. How is this possibly going to work when they don't even bother to balance weapons?

the pick/ban thingy is meant to give them more accurate information about the weapons, and then from there balance them out. If this goes on for long enough then it might actually be better than anything we can brainstorm together.

and who knows what this will evolve into. I personally am stoked to see what they can do.

[quote=jaybenaduchi]I don't know about you guys but pick/bans in TF2 has got to be one of the silliest ideas they could come up with. How is this possibly going to work when they don't even bother to balance weapons?[/quote]

the pick/ban thingy is meant to give them more accurate information about the weapons, and then from there balance them out. If this goes on for long enough then it might actually be better than anything we can brainstorm together.

and who knows what this will evolve into. I personally am stoked to see what they can do.
280
#280
6 Frags +

Upon seeing this I immediately started putting down my thoughts so sorry for rambling a bit. These are my initial thoughts:

How does researching which items are most banned tell you what's genuinely overpowered or not fun? Going by bans instead of objective ingame effectiveness is going by the "flavor of the month" and will lead to testers demanding like 10+ bans every match because they're not using to playing with/against dumb weapons. Justified or not this isn't what Valve wants.

It also completely ignores the opposite extreme - items that will stay forever unused because of how weak and hard to use they are. You won't automatically get more variety by limiting the number of bans because if there's only a handful bans they will be the same bans every match. And sometimes it won't increase variety at all because of how similar the existing items are.

I hope Valve is secretly collecting the data logs of all these tests and goes by general effectiveness instead. Because items will need to be rebalanced if you want more variety. Bans and picks can't achieve that.

That said it has to stay more casual than comp is at the moment if you want any significant amount of players to get into it. You'll also probably have to offer rewards for using the new ingame lobby system (read: hats). Losing a match because a teammate had to leave shouldn't be an issue, more of a minor inconvenience.

You may be able to force more variety by applying a pick/ban system to a varied metagame, sure. But I don't believe TF2 comp's current metagame is varied. Bans right now would only restrict players further instead of encouraging them to do cool new things. There have to be multiple viable options for each slot before it makes sense to do this. Yes I do believe players have to be forced to accept and utilize new strategies too. However the majority of currently existing items has been around for long enough, tried for long enough for us to be confident in saying there is no hidden potential there.

If you want things to be less stagnant, why not reward players for using less orthodox items? Have a list of mini-achievements, CoD-style, so that players have an incentive to try other weapons. It doesn't have to be more complicated than "get x points with this item equipped/by using this item". Then a checkbox is marked and when you reach a milestone you get a hat. (Making players use the new items and learn what to do with them was what the class unlock achievements were for back when Valve added them together with the items, too.)

More casual players would have a relatively easy early goal to strive towards while getting used to the more competitive environment. And instead of getting moments of "but I really only like this weapon, why is it banned *disconnects*" you'll get "well I could use the stock RL here but I still have to get 50 Black Box points".

More variety by incentive rather than force is a good thing at the start. And then when players are at a higher level you can apply your pick/ban system. I'm not sure it makes sense at the lowest levels though. If you imagine 18 casual players getting into a HL lobby (that's the goal of this after all), would they really know what to ban? It would lead to unnecessary strife more than anything.

Upon seeing this I immediately started putting down my thoughts so sorry for rambling a bit. These are my initial thoughts:

How does researching which items are most banned tell you what's genuinely overpowered or not fun? Going by bans instead of objective ingame effectiveness is going by the "flavor of the month" and will lead to testers demanding like 10+ bans every match because they're not using to playing with/against [i]dumb[/i] weapons. Justified or not this isn't what Valve wants.

It also completely ignores the opposite extreme - items that will stay forever unused because of how weak and hard to use they are. You won't automatically get more variety by limiting the number of bans because if there's only a handful bans they will be the same bans every match. And sometimes it won't increase variety at all because of how similar the existing items are.

I hope Valve is secretly collecting the data logs of all these tests and goes by general effectiveness instead. Because items will need to be rebalanced if you want more variety. Bans and picks can't achieve that.

That said it has to stay more casual than comp is at the moment if you want any significant amount of players to get into it. You'll also probably have to offer rewards for using the new ingame lobby system (read: hats). Losing a match because a teammate had to leave shouldn't be an issue, more of a minor inconvenience.

You may be able to force more variety by applying a pick/ban system to a varied metagame, sure. But I don't believe TF2 comp's current metagame is varied. Bans right now would only restrict players further instead of encouraging them to do cool new things. There have to be multiple viable options for each slot before it makes sense to do this. Yes I do believe players have to be forced to accept and utilize new strategies too. However the majority of currently existing items has been around for long enough, tried for long enough for us to be confident in saying there is no hidden potential there.

If you want things to be less stagnant, why not reward players for using less orthodox items? Have a list of mini-achievements, CoD-style, so that players have an incentive to try other weapons. It doesn't have to be more complicated than "get x points with this item equipped/by using this item". Then a checkbox is marked and when you reach a milestone you get a hat. (Making players use the new items and learn what to do with them was what the class unlock achievements were for back when Valve added them together with the items, too.)

More casual players would have a relatively easy early goal to strive towards while getting used to the more competitive environment. And instead of getting moments of "but I really only like this weapon, why is it banned *disconnects*" you'll get "well I could use the stock RL here but I still have to get 50 Black Box points".

More variety by incentive rather than force is a good thing at the start. And then when players are at a higher level you can apply your pick/ban system. I'm not sure it makes sense at the lowest levels though. If you imagine 18 casual players getting into a HL lobby (that's the goal of this after all), would they really know what to ban? It would lead to unnecessary strife more than anything.
281
#281
Tt eSPORTS
2 Frags +
Salamancer#273 They don't even link to streams in DOTA, apparently. They don't want to take the risk that someone is displaying something graphic or otherwise NSFW.

Odd. They link tournament streams in CS:GO all the time :(

[quote=Salamancer]#273 They don't even link to streams in DOTA, apparently. They don't want to take the risk that someone is displaying something graphic or otherwise NSFW.[/quote]
Odd. They link tournament streams in CS:GO all the time :(
282
#282
4 Frags +
TrotimYou'll also probably have to offer rewards for using the new ingame lobby system (read: hats).

Or more weapons. Basically get a free random drop when you finish a game.

[quote=Trotim]You'll also probably have to offer rewards for using the new ingame lobby system (read: hats).[/quote]
Or more weapons. Basically get a free random drop when you finish a game.
283
#283
-2 Frags +
RadmanTrotimYou'll also probably have to offer rewards for using the new ingame lobby system (read: hats).Or more weapons. Basically get a free random drop when you finish a game.

Maybe with a chance to drop an Unusual every X amount of games (with a very low chance, of course). This might attract the wrong crowd (people who don't care about competitive but want to get unusuals for free, basically), so it's probably a flawed idea.

[quote=Radman][quote=Trotim]You'll also probably have to offer rewards for using the new ingame lobby system (read: hats).[/quote]
Or more weapons. Basically get a free random drop when you finish a game.[/quote]


Maybe with a chance to drop an Unusual every X amount of games (with a very low chance, of course). This might attract the wrong crowd (people who don't care about competitive but want to get unusuals for free, basically), so it's probably a flawed idea.
284
#284
11 Frags +
kirbyRadmanTrotimYou'll also probably have to offer rewards for using the new ingame lobby system (read: hats).Or more weapons. Basically get a free random drop when you finish a game.
Maybe with a chance to drop an Unusual every X amount of games (with a very low chance, of course). This might attract the wrong crowd (people who don't care about competitive but want to get unusuals for free, basically), so it's probably a flawed idea.

they'll never give away unusuals that arent unboxed

[quote=kirby][quote=Radman][quote=Trotim]You'll also probably have to offer rewards for using the new ingame lobby system (read: hats).[/quote]
Or more weapons. Basically get a free random drop when you finish a game.[/quote]


Maybe with a chance to drop an Unusual every X amount of games (with a very low chance, of course). This might attract the wrong crowd (people who don't care about competitive but want to get unusuals for free, basically), so it's probably a flawed idea.[/quote]

they'll never give away unusuals that arent unboxed
285
#285
0 Frags +
seanbud2-3 years ago this would be cool but there are just too many weapons at this point. You'd have to have a system simple enough that the draft wouldnt take 20 minutes but if you did something like only banning 1 weapon per class then you could argue that there are so many viable alternatives that the bans wouldn't have any real effect EXCEPT in cases like the Medigun, and at that point you're gonna start the debate about what should be excluded from the bans list and we'll basically end up asking for a UGC whitelist or something, and they'll say no because that complicates things even more.

I think this is actually really important to be aware of. Keeping in mind that the main purpose/excuse-for-existence of this is to collect data about weapons being unbalanced so that people don't want to play with them in a competitive gamemode, how can we simplify the system without inherently imbalancing it? People posted things about that already, like the idea that you have a set of "guaranteed" unlocks like the kritz and others, but it would be such an exclusive list that -- although it would mitigate trolling and I think it's good regardless of what I'm about to say -- it wouldn't help with the density of bans in the first place because they're the unlocks that nobody would want to ban in the first place. Another idea is to have a dota style pick/ban system (which we already know helps them out a LOT) and they can adjust the length if pregame takes too long or the list is too stale (implying that the weapons showing up are all broken).

Not_a_ZombieWhile we're at it, can you discuss removing random critical hits from the default game? It would help bridge the gap between competitive and pubs and remove a lot of frustration when playing pubs.

IIRC, valve actually removed cap crits from their own CTF servers. A step in the right direction. It's not going to get removed from pubs, because they have a lot of testing data showing that it helps worse players compete against better players to a point where . Also, there are tons of minor statistical edge cases that actually alter gameplay with the two nospread settings, so unless they're fixed that's out of the window for defaults (note that I'm not saying they would be bad in these lobby matches, just as absolute default game settings).

enigmathere is a very fundamental problem with highlander that I don't think the valve team has acknowledged:

it requires 18 players.

it's going to be a logistical nightmare to organize that many people in an automated matchmaking setting on top of the strict highlander constraints (1 of each class).

There's a bunch of ways it can be softened up, like joining onto the queue with several classes and several gamemodes or making it so you join into proper lobbies instead of sitting in MM queue. That itself only solves some of the problems and only so much, but if d/cs are a problem you could sign up as a backup/sub as well and automatically join games or lobbies where people playing your selected classes and gamemode left.

[quote=seanbud]2-3 years ago this would be cool but there are just too many weapons at this point. You'd have to have a system simple enough that the draft wouldnt take 20 minutes but if you did something like only banning 1 weapon per class then you could argue that there are so many viable alternatives that the bans wouldn't have any real effect EXCEPT in cases like the Medigun, and at that point you're gonna start the debate about what should be excluded from the bans list and we'll basically end up asking for a UGC whitelist or something, and they'll say no because that complicates things even more.[/quote]

I think this is actually really important to be aware of. Keeping in mind that the main purpose/excuse-for-existence of this is to collect data about weapons being unbalanced so that people don't want to play with them in a competitive gamemode, how can we simplify the system without inherently imbalancing it? People posted things about that already, like the idea that you have a set of "guaranteed" unlocks like the kritz and others, but it would be such an exclusive list that -- although it would mitigate trolling and I think it's good regardless of what I'm about to say -- it wouldn't help with the density of bans in the first place because they're the unlocks that nobody would want to ban in the first place. Another idea is to have a dota style pick/ban system (which we already know helps them out a LOT) and they can adjust the length if pregame takes too long or the list is too stale (implying that the weapons showing up are all broken).

[quote=Not_a_Zombie]While we're at it, can you discuss removing random critical hits from the default game? It would help bridge the gap between competitive and pubs and remove a lot of frustration when playing pubs.[/quote]

IIRC, valve actually removed cap crits from their own CTF servers. A step in the right direction. It's not going to get removed from pubs, because they have a lot of testing data showing that it helps worse players compete against better players to a point where . Also, there are tons of minor statistical edge cases that actually alter gameplay with the two nospread settings, so unless they're fixed that's out of the window for defaults (note that I'm not saying they would be bad in these lobby matches, just as absolute default game settings).

[quote=enigma]there is a very fundamental problem with highlander that I don't think the valve team has acknowledged:

[b]it requires 18 players[/b].

it's going to be a logistical nightmare to organize that many people in an automated matchmaking setting on top of the strict highlander constraints (1 of each class).[/quote]

There's a bunch of ways it can be softened up, like joining onto the queue with several classes and several gamemodes or making it so you join into proper lobbies instead of sitting in MM queue. That itself only solves some of the problems and only so much, but if d/cs are a problem you could sign up as a backup/sub as well and automatically join games or lobbies where people playing your selected classes and gamemode left.
286
#286
0 Frags +

I agree with Robin on this one.

Competitive TF2 was a Frankenstein'd, community decided format and play style, which is not what developers such as Valve would like to back. It creates too much disconnect and confusion between the dev and the competitive scene. Look at every other competitive game in existence that is popular right now. The public game IS the pro game. League of Legends, Dota, Counter Strike, Starcraft, hell even Call of Duty. Team Fortress 2's competitive scene even in highlander is such a stretch from what the actual "pubby" experiences. Even adding a ban system to the weapons just creates more confusion, and fixes nothing. It's nice that Sal and Robin did some digging on this topic, but TF2 cannot be fully supported by Valve the way Dota or even any other game comp game is right now. The game was never meant to be competitive, and to change it now is too late sadly.

I agree with Robin on this one.

Competitive TF2 was a Frankenstein'd, community decided format and play style, which is not what developers such as Valve would like to back. It creates too much disconnect and confusion between the dev and the competitive scene. Look at every other competitive game in existence that is popular right now. The public game IS the pro game. League of Legends, Dota, Counter Strike, Starcraft, hell even Call of Duty. Team Fortress 2's competitive scene even in highlander is such a stretch from what the actual "pubby" experiences. Even adding a ban system to the weapons just creates more confusion, and fixes nothing. It's nice that Sal and Robin did some digging on this topic, but TF2 cannot be fully supported by Valve the way Dota or even any other game comp game is right now. The game was never meant to be competitive, and to change it now is too late sadly.
287
#287
3 Frags +

#286
Actually, the "problem" with 6s isn't that it's totally different from what TF2 was supposed to be. The problem is that it's been completely divergent from the original game's progress since early on. It took the generalist/specialist meta and ran, hard. At the same time pub play got its own quirks going on and is honestly a more convoluted mixture of general and special abilities. As well, some of the very best competitive games of all time weren't meant to be competitive, just balanced. Look at Quake 3. It was just an online arena shooter, and the community took it and ran (CPMA) with some changes that highlight the core design philosophy of the game. Bunnyhopping and rocketjumping and item control were at least marginally accounted for when the game was designed for? Let's add circular strafe jumping, change how slopes work so that players can do more while flying through the air, and fine tune the timings! The restriction is similar to what 6s did, and also similar to what patches did. It's just a matter of what else you know about, that's all.

#286
Actually, the "problem" with 6s isn't that it's totally different from what TF2 was supposed to be. The problem is that it's been completely divergent from the original game's progress since early on. It took the generalist/specialist meta and ran, hard. At the same time pub play got its own quirks going on and is honestly a more convoluted mixture of general and special abilities. As well, some of the very best competitive games of all time weren't meant to be competitive, just balanced. Look at Quake 3. It was just an online arena shooter, and the community took it and ran (CPMA) with some changes that highlight the core design philosophy of the game. Bunnyhopping and rocketjumping and item control were at least marginally accounted for when the game was designed for? Let's add circular strafe jumping, change how slopes work so that players can do more while flying through the air, and fine tune the timings! The restriction is similar to what 6s did, and also similar to what patches did. It's just a matter of what else you know about, that's all.
288
#288
5 Frags +

I'm excited about this. Robin is completely right about the current state of competitive TF2. It is the same stuff over and over again. Only the existing competitive players really enjoy consistently watching 6vs6 matches because we notice the tiny little differences in play and we appreciate those things.

People are assuming full unlocks would be bad for competitive TF2, but team's who want to put the effort in can come up with a vast range of effective strategies that currently aren't possible. The problem that most people have, is they can't be bothered to learn anything new, or more importantly, can't be bothered to learn how to play against anything new. Sure, things _would_ be shit at first, but after a few months when the new strategies start to become common and refined, you will probably find a couple of unlocks getting banned that you wouldn't even think are that powerful at the moment.

People might not enjoy playing it as much at first, but I can tell you that spectating will become 100x better from day 1. Us commentators will have so much more to talk about and we get to see a tonne of new stuff. Valve get promotion on items that players can buy (they make money) and we get a larger viewing crowd as the game becomes less alienated from the public community (they might be remotely interested in watching, while currently they are not). Competitive TF2 becomes fresh, exciting, and more popular.

It's literally win-win apart from a handful of 'pro' players who would outright refuse to learn and would quit the game. With the recent high levels of production from all of the casting organisations, a game (product) change like this could be the boost we need to bring this game into the spotlight if people actually took the time to think about the bigger picture and are willing to adapt (which is a skill btw...).

The TF2 community seriously needs to get on board with this as there is a clear cut direction the game needs to take and with the developers already on board, it's either TF2 sinks, or TF2 gets a motherfucking speedboat.

I'm excited about this. Robin is completely right about the current state of competitive TF2. It is the same stuff over and over again. Only the existing competitive players really enjoy consistently watching 6vs6 matches because we notice the tiny little differences in play and we appreciate those things.

People are assuming full unlocks would be bad for competitive TF2, but team's who want to put the effort in can come up with a vast range of effective strategies that currently aren't possible. The problem that most people have, is they can't be bothered to learn anything new, or more importantly, can't be bothered to learn how to play against anything new. Sure, things _would_ be shit at first, but after a few months when the new strategies start to become common and refined, you will probably find a couple of unlocks getting banned that you wouldn't even think are that powerful at the moment.

People might not enjoy playing it as much at first, but I can tell you that spectating will become 100x better from day 1. Us commentators will have so much more to talk about and we get to see a tonne of new stuff. Valve get promotion on items that players can buy (they make money) and we get a larger viewing crowd as the game becomes less alienated from the public community (they might be remotely interested in watching, while currently they are not). Competitive TF2 becomes fresh, exciting, and more popular.

It's literally win-win apart from a handful of 'pro' players who would outright refuse to learn and would quit the game. With the recent high levels of production from all of the casting organisations, a game (product) change like this could be the boost we need to bring this game into the spotlight if people actually took the time to think about the bigger picture and are willing to adapt (which is a skill btw...).

The TF2 community seriously needs to get on board with this as there is a clear cut direction the game needs to take and with the developers already on board, it's either TF2 sinks, or TF2 gets a motherfucking speedboat.
289
#289
11 Frags +

Valve needs to add more weapons like the Rescue Ranger. High skill floor, high skill ceiling. Granted, it was added for MvM almost exclusively but holy shit is it a good unlock.

Valve needs to add more weapons like the Rescue Ranger. High skill floor, high skill ceiling. Granted, it was added for MvM almost exclusively but holy shit is it a good unlock.
290
#290
13 Frags +

This thread

They should support 6s instead. The guy who created the game has no idea what hes talking about. The game mode we play is better. I'm gonna look a gift horse in the mouth because its not exactly what I wanted.

I can't wait for us to blow it and then have a huge thread about "Why doesn't valve support comp tf2???!11?!"

edit: Valve may be giving us HL lobbies. You're not going to talk them into making 6s lobbies right now. We've gotten nothing for years and now we have the possibility to have something huge. Lets please try to not fuck this up.

edit2: seriously, thanks Sal and eXtine for getting us this far.

This thread

[quote]They should support 6s instead. The guy who created the game has no idea what hes talking about. The game mode we play is better. I'm gonna look a gift horse in the mouth because its not exactly what I wanted.[/quote]

I can't wait for us to blow it and then have a huge thread about "Why doesn't valve support comp tf2???!11?!"

edit: Valve may be giving us HL lobbies. You're not going to talk them into making 6s lobbies right now. We've gotten nothing for years and now we have the possibility to have something huge. Lets please try to not fuck this up.

edit2: seriously, thanks Sal and eXtine for getting us this far.
291
#291
0 Frags +

Would a viable option be having 2 bans per class where each team gets to ban 1 wep/class? Or would it be better to have a total number of weapon bans (9 per team) usable on all classes?

Would a viable option be having 2 bans per class where each team gets to ban 1 wep/class? Or would it be better to have a total number of weapon bans (9 per team) usable on all classes?
292
#292
0 Frags +
ArxI'm excited about this. Robin is completely right about the current state of competitive TF2. It is the same stuff over and over again. Only the existing competitive players really enjoy consistently watching 6vs6 matches because we notice the tiny little differences in play and we appreciate those things.

Why does everybody keep acting like this is a problem? This is inherent to almost all competition. Ever watched a soccer game? How often do you see new never before seen plays? Hardly ever. It's all about execution. Same with all sports. Football probably has the most "new" plays, due to the nature of running a specific play every down, but even then they are few and far between, much like tf2. How much of CS:GO is crazy new strats instead of just fine tuning execution?

[quote=Arx]I'm excited about this. Robin is completely right about the current state of competitive TF2. It is the same stuff over and over again. Only the existing competitive players really enjoy consistently watching 6vs6 matches because we notice the tiny little differences in play and we appreciate those things.
[/quote]

Why does everybody keep acting like this is a problem? This is inherent to almost all competition. Ever watched a soccer game? How often do you see new never before seen plays? Hardly ever. It's all about execution. Same with all sports. Football probably has the most "new" plays, due to the nature of running a specific play every down, but even then they are few and far between, much like tf2. How much of CS:GO is crazy new strats instead of just fine tuning execution?
293
#293
3 Frags +

Should also be noted that the current competitive community is not largely who this is aimed at. Valve are going to want to aim this at the TF2 player base as a whole and other gamers who might get into TF2. I'd guesstimate that the current comp community makes up less than 1% of Valves target audience for this initiative.

Should also be noted that the current competitive community is not largely who this is aimed at. Valve are going to want to aim this at the TF2 player base as a whole and other gamers who might get into TF2. I'd guesstimate that the current comp community makes up less than 1% of Valves target audience for this initiative.
294
#294
4 Frags +
RuskeydooShould also be noted that the current competitive community is not largely who this is aimed at. Valve are going to want to aim this at the TF2 player base as a whole and other gamers who might get into TF2. I'd guesstimate that the current comp community makes up less than 1% of Valves target audience for this initiative.

we are the 1%

[quote=Ruskeydoo]Should also be noted that the current competitive community is not largely who this is aimed at. Valve are going to want to aim this at the TF2 player base as a whole and other gamers who might get into TF2. I'd guesstimate that the current comp community makes up less than 1% of Valves target audience for this initiative.[/quote]
we are the 1%
295
#295
1 Frags +
frknWhy does everybody keep acting like this is a problem? This is inherent to almost all competition. Ever watched a soccer game? How often do you see new never before seen plays? Hardly ever. It's all about execution. Same with all sports. Football probably has the most "new" plays, due to the nature of running a specific play every down, but even then they are few and far between, much like tf2. How much of CS:GO is crazy new strats instead of just fine tuning execution?

Actually with soccer you do get radical changes to tactics and plays over time : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Football-Tactics/dp/1409102041

Keeping with the soccer analogy 6's is like the 5-a-side to soccers main game. The problem as Valve sees it (as far as I can see) is that that the 'main' game is treated as a kick around in the park with jumpers as goal posts and the 5-a-side game is the super serious thing. They want to turn that kick around in the park into the competitive game. Which will still have knock on benefits for 6's... everyone is a winner.

I don't disagree with your original point, but I think this is how Valve see it.

[quote=frkn]Why does everybody keep acting like this is a problem? This is inherent to almost all competition. Ever watched a soccer game? How often do you see new never before seen plays? Hardly ever. It's all about execution. Same with all sports. Football probably has the most "new" plays, due to the nature of running a specific play every down, but even then they are few and far between, much like tf2. How much of CS:GO is crazy new strats instead of just fine tuning execution?[/quote]

Actually with soccer you do get radical changes to tactics and plays over time : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Football-Tactics/dp/1409102041

Keeping with the soccer analogy 6's is like the 5-a-side to soccers main game. The problem as Valve sees it (as far as I can see) is that that the 'main' game is treated as a kick around in the park with jumpers as goal posts and the 5-a-side game is the super serious thing. They want to turn that kick around in the park into the competitive game. Which will still have knock on benefits for 6's... everyone is a winner.

I don't disagree with your original point, but I think this is how Valve see it.
296
#296
-1 Frags +
Lucky_PierrefrknWhy does everybody keep acting like this is a problem? This is inherent to almost all competition. Ever watched a soccer game? How often do you see new never before seen plays? Hardly ever. It's all about execution. Same with all sports. Football probably has the most "new" plays, due to the nature of running a specific play every down, but even then they are few and far between, much like tf2. How much of CS:GO is crazy new strats instead of just fine tuning execution?
Actually with soccer you do get radical changes to tactics and plays over time : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Football-Tactics/dp/1409102041

Keeping with the soccer analogy 6's is like the 5-a-side to soccers main game. The problem as Valve sees it (as far as I can see) is that that the 'main' game is treated as a kick around in the park with jumpers as goal posts and the 5-a-side game is the super serious thing. They want to turn that kick around in the park into the competitive game. Which will still have knock on benefits for 6's... everyone is a winner.

I don't disagree with your original point, but I think this is how Valve see it.

Yeah, sports evolve over time...as has 6v6 tf2. I think what they mean is that it lack varietys on a game to game basis, which is also true of sports.

[quote=Lucky_Pierre][quote=frkn]Why does everybody keep acting like this is a problem? This is inherent to almost all competition. Ever watched a soccer game? How often do you see new never before seen plays? Hardly ever. It's all about execution. Same with all sports. Football probably has the most "new" plays, due to the nature of running a specific play every down, but even then they are few and far between, much like tf2. How much of CS:GO is crazy new strats instead of just fine tuning execution?[/quote]

Actually with soccer you do get radical changes to tactics and plays over time : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Football-Tactics/dp/1409102041

Keeping with the soccer analogy 6's is like the 5-a-side to soccers main game. The problem as Valve sees it (as far as I can see) is that that the 'main' game is treated as a kick around in the park with jumpers as goal posts and the 5-a-side game is the super serious thing. They want to turn that kick around in the park into the competitive game. Which will still have knock on benefits for 6's... everyone is a winner.

I don't disagree with your original point, but I think this is how Valve see it.[/quote]
Yeah, sports evolve over time...as has 6v6 tf2. I think what they mean is that it lack varietys on a game to game basis, which is also true of sports.
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#297
0 Frags +

> They want to turn that kick around in the park into the competitive game.

I'm not so sure about this. They do want to bring the two together somewhat in some way, but with Robin's complaints about the lack of meta changes, I think it's more of trying to marry different concepts between them. Bringing the balance of comp together with the dynamics of pubs. HL is the perfect middle ground to try things out on. Actually, I think the 8v8 this game was originally playtested with (?) to begin with would be best, but nobody likes playing it anymore (:[) because 6s and 9s perfect the different aspects of it (meta and quirk respectively). So HL is way more popular than any other competitive form and it's useful for collecting data on the majority of weapons that only the specialist classes can use in the first place and don't even have a reasonable usage in 6v6 5cp meta.

> They want to turn that kick around in the park into the competitive game.

I'm not so sure about this. They do want to bring the two together somewhat in some way, but with Robin's complaints about the lack of meta changes, I think it's more of trying to marry different concepts between them. Bringing the balance of comp together with the dynamics of pubs. HL is the perfect middle ground to try things out on. Actually, I think the 8v8 this game was originally playtested with (?) to begin with would be best, but nobody likes playing it anymore (:[) because 6s and 9s perfect the different aspects of it (meta and quirk respectively). So HL is way more popular than any other competitive form and it's [b]useful[/b] for collecting data on the majority of weapons that only the specialist classes can use in the first place and don't even have a reasonable usage in 6v6 5cp meta.
298
#298
2 Frags +
frknArxI'm excited about this. Robin is completely right about the current state of competitive TF2. It is the same stuff over and over again. Only the existing competitive players really enjoy consistently watching 6vs6 matches because we notice the tiny little differences in play and we appreciate those things.
Why does everybody keep acting like this is a problem? This is inherent to almost all competition. Ever watched a soccer game? How often do you see new never before seen plays? Hardly ever. It's all about execution. Same with all sports. Football probably has the most "new" plays, due to the nature of running a specific play every down, but even then they are few and far between, much like tf2. How much of CS:GO is crazy new strats instead of just fine tuning execution?

I dont really care for football, but I have watched every superbowl in the last 5 years. There is something to be said about the role spectacle and prevalence in the popularity of a sport.

With that being said, look at how much more popular football is than baseball. Football actually has different plays that can make a game interesting for the casual observer.

Look at the popularity of different esports. Going from most popular to least popular also lets you sort by the amount of variety and strategic depth of these games: Mobas>SC2>CS>>Vanilla tf2.

If you dont think the problem is variety, then what do you think is the issue here? What is making dota so big and so much fun to watch at a high level that tf2 lacks?

[quote=frkn][quote=Arx]I'm excited about this. Robin is completely right about the current state of competitive TF2. It is the same stuff over and over again. Only the existing competitive players really enjoy consistently watching 6vs6 matches because we notice the tiny little differences in play and we appreciate those things.
[/quote]

Why does everybody keep acting like this is a problem? This is inherent to almost all competition. Ever watched a soccer game? How often do you see new never before seen plays? Hardly ever. It's all about execution. Same with all sports. Football probably has the most "new" plays, due to the nature of running a specific play every down, but even then they are few and far between, much like tf2. How much of CS:GO is crazy new strats instead of just fine tuning execution?[/quote]
I dont really care for football, but I have watched every superbowl in the last 5 years. There is something to be said about the role spectacle and prevalence in the popularity of a sport.

With that being said, look at how much more popular football is than baseball. Football actually has different plays that can make a game interesting for the casual observer.

Look at the popularity of different esports. Going from most popular to least popular also lets you sort by the amount of variety and strategic depth of these games: Mobas>SC2>CS>>Vanilla tf2.

If you dont think the problem is variety, then what do you think is the issue here? What is making dota so big and so much fun to watch at a high level that tf2 lacks?
299
#299
4 Frags +

A pretty cool way to keep track of some stats would be in the form of another badge - a 'Competitive' badge that would track games won through this matchmaking system and rank up accordingly, similar to how the Dueling badges work.

If there's one thing that people love in TF2 it's getting shinier items, and if you can only get a Gold Competitive Badge through a system like this I suspect you'd encourage people to keep playing.

A pretty cool way to keep track of some stats would be in the form of another badge - a 'Competitive' badge that would track games won through this matchmaking system and rank up accordingly, similar to how the Dueling badges work.

If there's one thing that people love in TF2 it's getting shinier items, and if you can only get a [i]Gold Competitive Badge[/i] through a system like this I suspect you'd encourage people to keep playing.
300
#300
2 Frags +
Radman
With that being said, look at how much more popular football is than baseball. Football actually has different plays that can make a game interesting for the casual observer.

Look at the popularity of different esports. Going from most popular to least popular also lets you sort by the amount of variety and strategic depth of these games: Mobas>SC2>CS>>TF2.

If you dont think the problem is variety, then what do you think is the issue here? What is making dota so big and so much fun to watch at a high level that tf2 lacks?

IMO, football is so vastly more popular than baseball due to it's faster pace, not the variety it offers. Very few plays are anything other than basic runs or basic passing plays. There's few creative plays, getting the first down is usually just a matter of execution.

To me, kritz vs uber is equivalent to the variety of run/pass

And the answer to your question? I believe it is primarily due to the competetive formats of tf2 being completely different than pubs. And 6v6 in particular has a pretty high skill floor - throwing pubbers into a 6v6 game with no prior knowledge would be laughable.

Edit: Football isn't very fast paced including down time, but the plays themselves are extremely fast and exciting. And the down time between allows for suspense, analysis, predictions, etc. Too many of baseballs pitches end in a strike, foul, ball, or easy pop fly out.

[quote=Radman]

With that being said, look at how much more popular football is than baseball. Football actually has different plays that can make a game interesting for the casual observer.

Look at the popularity of different esports. Going from most popular to least popular also lets you sort by the amount of variety and strategic depth of these games: Mobas>SC2>CS>>TF2.

If you dont think the problem is variety, then what do you think is the issue here? What is making dota so big and so much fun to watch at a high level that tf2 lacks?[/quote]

IMO, football is so vastly more popular than baseball due to it's faster pace, not the variety it offers. Very few plays are anything other than basic runs or basic passing plays. There's few creative plays, getting the first down is usually just a matter of execution.

To me, kritz vs uber is equivalent to the variety of run/pass

And the answer to your question? I believe it is primarily due to the competetive formats of tf2 being completely different than pubs. And 6v6 in particular has a pretty high skill floor - throwing pubbers into a 6v6 game with no prior knowledge would be laughable.

Edit: Football isn't very fast paced including down time, but the plays themselves are extremely fast and exciting. And the down time between allows for suspense, analysis, predictions, etc. Too many of baseballs pitches end in a strike, foul, ball, or easy pop fly out.
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