#1
Frags 70

For the past few months I've been working on a betting website (with a little help of my friends) , which is now ready to for the official announcement to the wider audience.

Saloon.tf will initially host bets for all ETF2L premiership and CEVO professional Team Fortress 2 matches with UGC and ESEA hopefully coming soon after the launch. In this brief introduction I want to give you a general idea of how is this thing going to works and share some sneak peeks with you (thanks to huhy).





We're going to use parimutuel betting known mainly from horse races, which means that instead of calculating fixed odds beforehand, the payoff odds will be calculated by sharing the lost items among the winners.

The main reason for doing this is that I can't go bankrupt unable to cover payoffs if I set wrong odds or underestimate amount of players involved. The other thing is that I will avoid accusations of doing Black Sox coming from the upset users as I don't have particular interest in any of the sides winning and you can trust me to do my best to fight 322.

Odds can minimally change during the time, and you could not always be happy with the outcome, which is why I've decided to let users switch their picks (as long as the status isn’t locked), so they can react for changing payout values.
Items' values are updated using backpack.tf’s API every half an hour and just before distributing them. You will be able to place all genuie, vintage and unique keys, cosmetic items, paint cans and metals in your bet as long as they fit in the price range between earbuds and refined metal.

Huge part of betting is watching the games and we want to help you enjoy that displaying casts from BlackOutGaming.TV and TeamFortress.TV with the third organisation coming soon after.

For the purpose of enchancing your experience I've created live logs, a little sidebar displaying most important data from the match sever on the most matches played in CEVO and ETF2L thanks to Lange (CEVO) and Jon (BO.tv)

The bots are using trade offers to trade with the users and between themselves. After you click bet one of them will ask Steam for your inventory and display it (filtering out the items you can’t bet) so that you can choose the items you wish to place in a bet from there. Then the tradeoffer is sent to you and you have 120 seconds to accept it (Steam limitations), after this time bot stops checking it's status and the offer is cancelled, so that you can't accidentaly accept it.

The bots are written from scratch using Python specifically to do for the tasks they perform, although the library I've written for them is pretty universal and everyone can use it.

Shoutouts without any particular order:
Gentleman Jon for helping me figure out most complicated mathematical stuff
Jon and BO.tv for agreeing to add server info (for log forwarding) and to show the bets summary on their streams in the future
Lange and CEVO for being kind enough to redirect server logs for me
JackyLegs for motivating me to keep up the work
Ma3la and others for popularizing the topic
huhy for helping me out with the media stuff
juicebox for his commits to the code
Kaneco for designing the logo

Support us:
We need a lot of bots to go big and the costs are quite high, so if you wish to support us send me a tradeoffer with any number of backpack expanders or other items you want and in the I'll make sure you get some unique perks not available in other ways and will be one of the first to try it out :)
We will also need to get better server or rent another one in Canada, so PayPal donations are well appreciated ([email protected]) too.

Trade Offer
[img]http://saloon.tf/images/logo.png[/img]
For the past few months I've been working on a betting website ([b]with a little help of my friends[/b]) , which is now ready to for the official announcement to the wider audience.

[b]Saloon.tf[/b] will initially host bets for all [b][url=http://etf2l.org]ETF2L premiership[/url][/b] and [b][url=http://cevo.com]CEVO professional[/url][/b] Team Fortress 2 matches with UGC and ESEA hopefully coming soon after the launch. In this brief introduction I want to give you a general idea of how is this thing going to works and share some sneak peeks with you (thanks to [b][url=http://www.twitch.tv/huhytf2]huhy[/url][/b]).

[url=http://i.imgur.com/pKaEnQd.png][img]http://i.imgur.com/pKaEnQd.png[/img][/url]
[url=http://i.imgur.com/XAzTznp.png][img]http://i.imgur.com/XAzTznp.png[/img][/url]
[url=http://i.imgur.com/vQUk5G2.png][img]http://i.imgur.com/vQUk5G2.png[/img][/url]

We're going to use [b]parimutuel[/b] betting known mainly from horse races, which means that instead of calculating fixed odds beforehand, the payoff odds will be calculated by sharing the lost items among the winners.

The main reason for doing this is that I can't go bankrupt unable to cover payoffs if I set wrong odds or underestimate amount of players involved. The other thing is that I will avoid accusations of doing [b][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sox_Scandal]Black Sox[/url][/b] coming from the upset users as I don't have particular interest in any of the sides winning and you can trust me to do my best to fight [b][url=http://dota2.gamepedia.com/RoX.KIS]322[/url][/b].

Odds can minimally change during the time, and you could not always be happy with the outcome, which is why I've decided to let users switch their picks (as long as the status isn’t locked), so they can react for changing payout values.
Items' values are updated using [b][url=http://backpack.tf]backpack.tf’s API[/url][/b] every half an hour and just before distributing them. You will be able to place all genuie, vintage and unique keys, cosmetic items, paint cans and metals in your bet as long as they fit in the price range between earbuds and refined metal.


Huge part of betting is watching the games and we want to help you enjoy that displaying casts from [b][url=http://www.twitch.tv/blackoutgamingtv]BlackOutGaming.TV[/url][/b] and [b][url=http://www.twitch.tv/teamfortresstv]TeamFortress.TV[/url][/b] with the third organisation coming soon after.

For the purpose of enchancing your experience I've created live logs, a little sidebar displaying most important data from the match sever on the most matches played in CEVO and ETF2L thanks to [b][url=http://steamcommunity.com/id/langeh]Lange (CEVO)[/url][/b] and [b][url=https://steamcommunity.com/id/jon1155/]Jon (BO.tv)[/url][/b]


The bots are using [b][url=https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=2178-QGJV-0708]trade offers[/url][/b] to trade with the users and between themselves. After you click bet one of them will ask Steam for your inventory and display it (filtering out the items you can’t bet) so that you can choose the items you wish to place in a bet from there. Then the tradeoffer is sent to you and you have 120 seconds to accept it (Steam limitations), after this time bot stops checking it's status and the offer is cancelled, so that you can't accidentaly accept it.

The bots are written from scratch using Python specifically to do for the tasks they perform, although the library I've written for them is pretty universal and [b][url=https://github.com/Kuba77/Saloon.tf/blob/master/Daemon/SteamWeb.py]everyone can use it[/url][/b].

[b]Shoutouts without any particular order[/b]:
[b][url=http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198045803959/]Gentleman Jon[/url][/b] for helping me figure out most complicated mathematical stuff
[b][url=http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198041997510/]Jon[/url][/b] and BO.tv for agreeing to add server info (for log forwarding) and to show the bets summary on their streams in the future
[b][url=http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197974943998/]Lange[/url][/b] and CEVO for being kind enough to redirect server logs for me
[b][url=http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197998944560/]JackyLegs[/url][/b] for motivating me to keep up the work
[b][url=http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198045803959/]Ma3la[/url][/b] and others for popularizing the topic
[b][url=http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198000082028/]huhy[/url][/b] for helping me out with the media stuff
[b][url=http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198044783146/]juicebox[/url][/b] for his commits to the code
[b][url=http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197991320838/]Kaneco[/url][/b] for designing the logo

[b]Support us[/b]:
We need a lot of bots to go big and the costs are quite high, so if you wish to support us send me a tradeoffer with any number of backpack expanders or other items you want and in the I'll make sure you get some unique perks not available in other ways and will be one of the first to try it out :)
We will also need to get better server or rent another one in Canada, so PayPal donations are well appreciated ([email protected]) too.

[url=http://steamcommunity.com/tradeoffer/new/?partner=64910312&token=V2WE8Tkh]Trade Offer[/url]
#2 4 5 3 Frags
Looks interesting, been betting at csgolounge.com and lost $50, maybe I can recover it if you get this site running :)
Looks interesting, been betting at csgolounge.com and lost $50, maybe I can recover it if you get this site running :)
#3 1 2 0 Frags
Always wanted to create a website like this for tf, wish you luck!
Always wanted to create a website like this for tf, wish you luck!
#4 3 4 2 Frags
Hm, I've been working on something similar on and off, but yours looks far better!
The way I thought about handling the bets is splitting the losers pot among winners, and whatever is leftover would be the "jackpot" - as in, one randomly chosen person from the winners would get this. This way, people could bet against the favorites to attempt to get a split from the winners pot, or bet for the top team to get a chance at winning the jackpot. Of course, this is untested and just an idea I had, it might just be as flawed as the regular pot splitting idea.
I also left keys out of the betting system because of their changing price - I limited it to metals. How are you handling this - do you just update the value of keys every so often?
Hm, [url=http://greencouchgames.net/tf2bets/]I've been working on something similar on and off[/url], but yours looks far better!
The way I thought about handling the bets is splitting the losers pot among winners, and whatever is leftover would be the "jackpot" - as in, one randomly chosen person from the winners would get this. This way, people could bet against the favorites to attempt to get a split from the winners pot, or bet for the top team to get a chance at winning the jackpot. Of course, this is untested and just an idea I had, it might just be as flawed as the regular pot splitting idea.
I also left keys out of the betting system because of their changing price - I limited it to metals. How are you handling this - do you just update the value of keys every so often?
#5 2 3 1 Frags
I want to change keys to metal on deposit using scrap.tf's bots. I already made an attempt to contact geel, not sure how it will turn out.
I want to change keys to metal on deposit using scrap.tf's bots. I already made an attempt to contact geel, not sure how it will turn out.
#6 2 3 1 Frags
CHERRY going HAM

Looks like you've done an amazing job so far, please keep it up!
CHERRY going HAM

Looks like you've done an amazing job so far, please keep it up!
#7 3 4 2 Frags
Deposit items in 30 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8zyU4k3Fs4
Deposit items in 30 seconds:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8zyU4k3Fs4[/youtube]
#8 5 6 4 Frags
Now I have a site where I can lose all my keys betting on Tankman, Yes!
Now I have a site where I can lose all my keys betting on Tankman, Yes!
#9 –3 –2 –4 Frags
Does the site look like this for anyone else or is it just my end.
Does the site look like this for anyone else or is it just my end.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/aUjFICA.png[/img]
#10 4 5 3 Frags
Does the site look like this for anyone else or is it just my end.

it isn't finished
[quote=Lord_Potato]Does the site look like this for anyone else or is it just my end.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/aUjFICA.png[/img][/quote]
it isn't finished
#11 5 6 4 Frags
oh ok, i'm an idiot
oh ok, i'm an idiot
#12 3 4 2 Frags
The Saltybet way of handling payouts may be a good idea for this, where the winners earn a percentage of the losers pool based on what percentage of the winners pool they staked. So if your bet is 10% of the winners pool, you get 10% of the losers pool + your bet back. Provides an incentive to bet underdog (dreams!), which helps keep the odds in check somewhat.
The Saltybet way of handling payouts may be a good idea for this, where the winners earn a percentage of the losers pool based on what percentage of the winners pool they staked. So if your bet is 10% of the winners pool, you get 10% of the losers pool + your bet back. Provides an incentive to bet underdog (dreams!), which helps keep the odds in check somewhat.
#13 1 2 0 Frags
The main page crashes The Saltybet way of handling payouts may be a good idea for this, where the winners earn a percentage of the losers pool based on what percentage of the winners pool they staked. So if your bet is 10% of the winners pool, you get 10% of the losers pool + your bet back. Provides an incentive to bet underdog (dreams!), which helps keep the odds in check somewhat.
I will propably do something like that.

Anyway the website is supposed to crash on index, but there's not much to do on other pages anyway.
The main page crashes [quote=LtSteve]The Saltybet way of handling payouts may be a good idea for this, where the winners earn a percentage of the losers pool based on what percentage of the winners pool they staked. So if your bet is 10% of the winners pool, you get 10% of the losers pool + your bet back. Provides an incentive to bet underdog (dreams!), which helps keep the odds in check somewhat.[/quote]
I will propably do something like that.

Anyway the website is supposed to crash on index, but there's not much to do on other pages anyway.
#14 3 4 2 Frags
I was actually thinking about something like this, but it's more like a bank. You can put refined metal in "the bank" and it gains interest. In return, the bank owners can loan that money for profit, just like a normal bank. Does anything like this exist?
I was actually thinking about something like this, but it's more like a bank. You can put refined metal in "the bank" and it gains interest. In return, the bank owners can loan that money for profit, just like a normal bank. Does anything like this exist?
#15 5 6 4 Frags
I was actually thinking about something like this, but it's more like a bank. You can put refined metal in "the bank" and it gains interest. In return, the bank owners can loan that money for profit, just like a normal bank. Does anything like this exist?
Nah, and there won't be anything like this. Imagine how hard it will be to get the metal back from people.
[quote=chive]I was actually thinking about something like this, but it's more like a bank. You can put refined metal in "the bank" and it gains interest. In return, the bank owners can loan that money for profit, just like a normal bank. Does anything like this exist?[/quote]
Nah, and there won't be anything like this. Imagine how hard it will be to get the metal back from people.
#16 3 4 2 Frags
A possibility that you might look into for betting is spread betting, where people bet on the margin of victory instead of the victor itself. It would help encourage betting in games with a clear favorite to win.

On the side you could also have over-under bets on match stats like damage totals, frags, Uber drops, etc.
A possibility that you might look into for betting is spread betting, where people bet on the margin of victory instead of the victor itself. It would help encourage betting in games with a clear favorite to win.

On the side you could also have over-under bets on match stats like damage totals, frags, Uber drops, etc.
#17 1 2 0 Frags
Looks good!
Any chance there's any ESEA or UGC NA?
Looks good!
Any chance there's any ESEA or UGC NA?
#18 2 3 1 Frags
Yeah, there will be NA
Yeah, there will be NA
#19 10 11 9 Frags
Just do the betting percentages and everything like it's done on csgo lounge. Also thank you so much for making this, csgo lounge insanely raised the numbers of viewers for the csgo match streams and hopefully this can do the same for tf2. This could be really really successful and boost the stream views by a ton but for it to work people need to step up and cast multiple matches a night not just one a week, the people betting want something to watch that isnt just an stv.
Just do the betting percentages and everything like it's done on csgo lounge. Also thank you so much for making this, csgo lounge insanely raised the numbers of viewers for the csgo match streams and hopefully this can do the same for tf2. This could be really really successful and boost the stream views by a ton but for it to work people need to step up and cast multiple matches a night not just one a week, the people betting want something to watch that isnt just an stv.
#20 2 3 1 Frags
I also hope that it'll show pubs competitive side of a game.
I will give you an update tommorow since I already turned off my computer.
Anyway I need to contact Scrap.TF so if any of you knows them please ask them if they could contact me. Unfortunately none of them is accepting my friend requests :/
My steam profile: http://steamcommunity.com/id/123Coke
I also hope that it'll show pubs competitive side of a game.
I will give you an update tommorow since I already turned off my computer.
Anyway I need to contact [b]Scrap.TF[/b] so if any of you knows them please ask them if they could contact me. Unfortunately none of them is accepting my friend requests :/
My steam profile: http://steamcommunity.com/id/123Coke
#21 4 5 3 Frags
The issue with changing keys straight to metal is that people will be reluctant to deposit keys at all as they are pretty much on a constant rise. I would exchange them on bet rather than on deposit, so that people know that by having keys deposited they aren't losing value.

Other ideas:
Rosters come up if you click on a team maybe? Could help people see who they are betting on
Have a friends bar on the side where you can see how much your steam friends have lost/won recently, sort of like the duels thing you see on map change
Also maybe a scoreboard of biggest winners each week? Could encourage betters.
Allow comments on matches so people can shit talk about how they are gonna win big on this one
The issue with changing keys straight to metal is that people will be reluctant to deposit keys at all as they are pretty much on a constant rise. I would exchange them on bet rather than on deposit, so that people know that by having keys deposited they aren't losing value.

Other ideas:
Rosters come up if you click on a team maybe? Could help people see who they are betting on
Have a friends bar on the side where you can see how much your steam friends have lost/won recently, sort of like the duels thing you see on map change
Also maybe a scoreboard of biggest winners each week? Could encourage betters.
Allow comments on matches so people can shit talk about how they are gonna win big on this one
#22 1 2 0 Frags
The issue with changing keys straight to metal is that people will be reluctant to deposit keys at all as they are pretty much on a constant rise. I would exchange them on bet rather than on deposit, so that people know that by having keys deposited they aren't losing value.
It would be really awkward in my honest opinion, keys should either be bet(?) or they shouldn't be part of virtual inventory at all, and making a trade with keys buying bots when someone bets keys would also overcomplicate the process

Other ideas:
Rosters come up if you click on a team maybe?
Could help people see who they are betting on

That's not a bad idea.
Have a friends bar on the side where you can see how much your steam friends have lost/won recently, sort of like the duels thing you see on map change
This one could discourage betting if they see that they friends lost, I like this one much better:
Also maybe a scoreboard of biggest winners each week? Could encourage betters.
Allow comments on matches so people can shit talk about how they are gonna win big on this one


How withdrawals work
Withdrawing item was very hard to design as Valve wants us to specify exact item that we want to trade rather than just any refined metal. This is real problem when two users want the same item and bot has to decline one trade so I had to implement some sort of queue like you can see on scrap.tf and other automated trading websites.
Bot could send offers himself, taking care of choosing correct items, but then users will need to give me their secret token and it makes the site overcomplicated, since I want signing up as easy as signing in.
So I decided to make withdrawal work the same way as deposit, you click on withdrawal button, establish connection with bot and when you reach first place in line you get Trade just like in the previous case. The only difference is that you need to select bots inventory and items that you want to get from him instead of giving him items from yours. If you select more than 2 items of the same kind (except refs), like 3 scraps or 4 recs your trade will be declined automatically, otherwise if you fit in 120 seconds timeframe your trade will get accepted.
[quote=haz]The issue with changing keys straight to metal is that people will be reluctant to deposit keys at all as they are pretty much on a constant rise. I would exchange them on bet rather than on deposit, so that people know that by having keys deposited they aren't losing value.[/quote]
It would be really awkward in my honest opinion, keys should either be bet(?) or they shouldn't be part of virtual inventory at all, and making a trade with keys buying bots when someone bets keys would also overcomplicate the process

[quote=haz]Other ideas:
Rosters come up if you click on a team maybe?
Could help people see who they are betting on[/quote]
That's not a bad idea.
[quote=haz]Have a friends bar on the side where you can see how much your steam friends have lost/won recently, sort of like the duels thing you see on map change[/quote]
This one could discourage betting if they see that they friends lost, I like this one much better:
[quote=haz]Also maybe a scoreboard of biggest winners each week? Could encourage betters.
Allow comments on matches so people can shit talk about how they are gonna win big on this one[/quote]

[b]How withdrawals work[/b]
Withdrawing item was very hard to design as Valve wants us to specify [b]exact[/b] item that we want to trade rather than just any refined metal. This is real problem when two users want the same item and bot has to decline one trade so I had to implement some sort of queue like you can see on scrap.tf and other automated trading websites.
Bot could send offers himself, taking care of choosing correct items, but then users will need to give me their secret token and it makes the site overcomplicated, since I want signing up as easy as signing in.
So I decided to make withdrawal work the same way as deposit, you click on withdrawal button, establish connection with bot and when you reach first place in line you get [b]Trade[/b] just like in the previous case. The only difference is that you need to select bots inventory and items that you want to get from him instead of giving him items from yours. If you select more than 2 items of the same kind (except refs), like 3 scraps or 4 recs your trade will be declined automatically, otherwise if you fit in 120 seconds timeframe your trade will get accepted.
#23 3 4 2 Frags
Finally betting site!
Finally betting site!
#24 4 5 3 Frags
There's easter and I am preparing a party for my 18th birthday so there hasn't been much progress, but before that I was working on the backend:
There's easter and I am preparing a party for my 18th birthday so there hasn't been much progress, but before that I was working on the backend:
[url=http://i.imgur.com/U2DozQT.png][img]http://i.imgur.com/U2DozQT.png[/img][/url]
#25 3 4 2 Frags
Bought VPS in Seattle propably in the same datacenter as Steam since I have 0.6-0.8 ms latency to steamcommunity.com servers :)
Bought VPS in Seattle propably in the same datacenter as Steam since I have 0.6-0.8 ms latency to steamcommunity.com servers :)
#26 1 2 0 Frags
Just wanted to add that even though the server is in Seattle I set up a CDN for it.
If I'll be happy with CloudFlare and my project will get enough interest I'll propably buy PRO package, if not I will just buy VPSes in Amsterdam, Moscow and Singapore to deliver content like images or scripts.
Just wanted to add that even though the server is in Seattle I set up a CDN for it.
If I'll be happy with CloudFlare and my project will get enough interest I'll propably buy PRO package, if not I will just buy VPSes in Amsterdam, Moscow and Singapore to deliver content like images or scripts.
#27 15 16 14 Frags
bump. wondering how this is going and stuff
bump. wondering how this is going and stuff
#28 0 1 –1 Frags
when this happens im gonna get so much rares items
when this happens im gonna get so much [s]rares[/s] items
#29 2 3 1 Frags
Looks rad, here's to hoping it all gets working properly!
Looks rad, here's to hoping it all gets working properly!
#30 1 2 0 Frags
This looks cool
This looks cool
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