you actually made the thread, I thought you were kidding

god dammit

why

why would u make a thread about a map that already has it's own thread

like why didn't u just post there

Did you not just watch the Mixup vs. Exertus game?
Didn't look like that many stalemates to me...

vote it out next season

It's a great map.

Kinda reminds me of Process.

The layout is sloppy, everything else is great. 6/10

Do people actually prefer playing this map over coalplant? I thought coalplant was way more fun to play. I am all for new maps, but I think coalplant was much better than this map.

Fun map, There might be an excess of health kits around though. Especially around 2nd

Right after that game.

Really.

i'd rather play coalplant but whatever

overall the map is just fun to play, it's not in favor of certain classes (at least in my opinion) like many other maps that have been added in seasons past, and I don't know how you could say it produces stalemates at all

garbo map yo

the mid fight is awful

It's a nice looking map however it doesn't play very well. It's very bad for medics/demos good for roamers and scouts. Most points are difficult to push without being punished and last is similar to warmfront. Pushing back into middle with a 20-30% advantage on most maps you'd be able to get some picks with no problem. This map it's so easy to back out and just counter the uber. Also the 2nd area is so large it's so easy to get split up with your team. With a few changes it could be really good but as of right now it's just not up to par. That's the fairest assessment I can give. The swirl staircase on 2nd looks nice but it is really annoying to play around as a medic who can't rocket jump or double jump. The ammo is risky or too far to grab as well. Too many useless obstacles built in which makes it easy to stalemate. I'm a medic so I didn't enjoy it too much. Definitely needs adjustments but it has potential. The health packs shouldn't be in the cafe they should be more easily available like granary if you'd want to speed up the mid fights more otherwise it's more of a passive boring fight all the time. And if you're going to have all these props and arches over head at least make it so we can jump over them and not get clobbered by spam. I think the alley area would be better off as a cliff type similar to coldfront. If you got rid of the second points it'd make for a great koth map imo.

It really made me wish we were playing warmfront instead.

good job complaining about the map instead of giving advices to the developer of the map kid.

Why are people still posting in this thread. If you want to give feedback, go to http://teamfortress.tv/thread/11931/cp-sunshine-5cp .

This thread stinks of hurting butts.

Map grew on me big time, I like it a lot. Biggest issue is pushing out of last/contesting second is so difficult because the enemy team has high ground no matter what entrance you push out of.

Not only that but there are just so many doorways that they can back cap from.

Honestly I think it is a great map overall with a ton of possibilities that break up the monotony of some of the other maps. There a lot of options to push into second because there are a lot of openings. There a ton of ways to push into last with some wide open sniper lanes, mid has a ton of possibilities (a highlight being a not quite Process fast roamer rollout but the same type of height and distance to get into the face of the combo walking i anywhere they go and because it is slower the roamer can adjust to the call of the demo), and is pretty evenly beneficial for all classes (except the medic but who cares about them).

It was easily one of the most fun maps I have played this season, the only real complaint I have against the map is that it is a little hard to push out of last sometimes. But ubers are very kitable on last with ways to milk and bait into off-classes to create a better counter uber and get picks to make pushing out easier.

I do also think that Coalplant deserves another chance, the time to cap mid finally making sense again is a huge buff. Plus it's KOTH, EVERYONE LOVES KOTH. If any map needs to be voted out it should be Badlands (i'm tired of this brown stain), Granary (biased mid demo hate), or Metalworks (Etf2l Turbine is clearly the way).

u wot

I think it's better than Metalworks.

I believe Sunshine's last is much better than most last points.

I can't imagine what you think of Snakewater, Process, Metalworks, and maybe even Granary.

Hard-counter = make your entire team go every entrance/exit when pushing out to second point.

Sunshine is fun. The mids are interesting, the second point isn't painfully impossible to push into / out of, and last is fair. I think the balance of this map is much better than Granary or perhaps Metalworks.

Yeah could've done that I guess, sorry
At least there is some discussion, which is really what's necessary to improve the map.

I don't want this map out of the rotation and I don't think it's a bad map, I also realize stalemates happen and lasts can cause big stalemates.

Overall the map is very process-esque and I like it but given that it has a handful of problems I wouldn't call it great yet. I like mid for the most part, I don't like that players can stand on the roof above cafe, it's a really strong position, it's difficult for scouts to fight soldier that jump there and it shuts down cafe-side mids when combined with a soldier on bell tower. There are other positions that can fight cafe-side with soldier bombs (legoland as Lange named it or bell tower - you can also have the roamer bomb behind the enemy combo & distract very easily given the large amount of space in choke). On Second I like that there are three areas to push through and that a team can hold aggressive (medic standing in between choke + valley or on ramp next to lighthouse, dropping off back towards shutter if they get jumped). Like process this map suffers in that soldier bombs from mid are very inneffective - especially if the team holds behind lighthouse (but on the flipside it's much easier to take ground provided you can shut down soldier bombs and not get spotted early) - resulting in stalemates occansionally, not really an issue to me given that they don't last too long. Last and lobby is where it gets weird. Lobby/Water was incredibly confusing at first, and the main problem with its number of splits into smaller numbers is that instead of having two or three areas to check, you have to check EVERY exit of last. Take Snakewater for example: In order for a team to sucessfully push out and not get backcapped, they must cover lobby (covering 3 entrances of lobby), lowerlobby/under (which covers two entrances into last), and check to make sure that no one is hiding in cheese(which 1 player could do on their way to lower lobby). Whereas on sunshine, the lobby area is split into four areas: water, healthpack lower lobby, shutter lobby, and stairway(above healthpack lobby). None of these areas meet up until second, so instead of short exits out of last into an open area you end of with four long exits into second. Although it is possible to stop a backcap through every one of these exits, it's still a sloppy lobby set-up in my opinion. Especially because it's difficult to hold lobby without getting forced / losing numbers (when you are trying to get a kill or something pushing into last), which shaves a few seconds off a spawn timer or uber advantage while walking into an already big last. On last itself, pipe is an incredibly powerful position, essentially shutting down top-left(if you are holding) and water, and during fights the victor can often be determind by pipe control, very similar to granary. When holding last most teams I have seen have been holding on the platform leading out of the right spawn door, dropping their medic into spawn if they need to(especially possible because of slow cap time). However, if you hold your medic in the cubby outside of left spawn door your medic can give heals to left and right (as well as the soldier on pipe if he drops back a bit), is in a very safe position vs bombs and snipers and spies, and a pyro or heavy can VERY effectively shut down a push even without uber. On top of this a heavy or sentry gun can be hid within secret (it doesn't really need to be there it works on gullywash because of the last's small size, but this last is already massive and easy to hold and a player can hide there and attempt to backcap or do something creative like in gullywash)

It isn't a bad map in the slightest, I apologize if I made it seem that way. It definitely should not be voted out, I had originally wanted to wanted to draw attention to the issues we were having with the map and apologize for the immature original post.

Too late now, trollsters have marked you incoming -frags

(map creator here)
I was avoiding this thread because it didn't start out very friendly and felt like it would only encourage toxic feedback. Your first post wasn't really feedback as much as it was just seemingly making a joke or something? although you made up for it by posting this wonderful enormous paragraph of feedback. I'm gunna be splitting it up and responding to each section individually, asking questions etc. Could have used being posted in the main thread but eh this is ok too.

The roof above café didn't really have many reasons for/against it before I made the ESEA version, I can see now that it's a rather strong holding position and I'll probably remove it, yeah. Mid could use a few fixes, I'd like to figure out specific ideas but hopefully it won't require completely remaking mid (again).

Should soldier bombs be made stronger? I'm not sure, I haven't watched any videos of matches yet. Second is more of a non-issue compared to other things, mainly last lobby, but any specific ideas for fixes are good feedback.

I may or may not remove water entirely, favoring an entrance somewhere near secret I guess, if that's what we call that little area - or might remove the path under the lighthouse, I don't know specifically yet but hopefully make it less complicated.

Should I remove pipe in favor of something else? I hope the last didn't stalemate too much, from what I've heard it was ok but I don't know anything concretely yet. Wah I need to get with the tiiimes

Should secret exist? Is it a little too powerful or is it alright? I'm not sure but maybe changing the entrances into last/fooling with lobby could fix this.

From the first post it sounded like you might have been saying that, but it's okay, at least you got this feedback in. There's some other great feedback in this thread that I wish was posted in the main thread too, but oh well - at least we're getting somewhere. RC1 is by and large absolutely NOT the final version, don't let anyone make you think it'll be - I'll be updating it again. Soon, hopefully.

Thanks,
Jaycie (phi)