middie say what

When I played it everyone but me was creeped out by and constantly talking about the lighting. I didn't notice it but I'm different like dat

yea

stop the count

580 elo

9v9 clarse limit 1

I acknowledge it is just my personal experience but majority of people I have had direct talks with about it don't like the plugins. I'm not gonna collect a survey to make a forum post on team fortress dot tv :p

Ok I may have exaggerated here, the bottom line is that I do not think the Scout/Soldier matchup before the plugin was imbalanced. Like I said, if you catch a timing or have a good bomb it is entirely possible to be the one killing the Scout rather than the other way around, and this plugin only improves the chance of that happening. If anything I think it is imbalanced now and that is because a poor Soldier can do the laziest "me hulk me smash" bomb and get far more value than they otherwise would without the plugin. That is all I am arguing.

Your point about this not being the intention of the plugin is 100% true but I don't see what that means if it has unintended consequences that are damaging the game. I do not like fighting vs Soldiers who just fly into my face like a moron and have a higher chance of getting some value when before they would die for 150 dmg.

100% this. I know this may seem like me running because I've been pwned but I was always mostly in this camp. The only validity I saw was that it would be interesting to playtest the plugins for an extended period of time. We've now done that and not everyone is sold 100%, to say the least. I would say the best thing to do is keep coming up with and implementing quality of life plugins and stop when the plugins become too different from the core game.

Wasn't the plugin made and then implemented because some people thought that the game without a plugin was boring? With all due respect, I don't think anything more than theory-crafting was put into the concept and implementing of the plugins either, so I don't see why it's not valid to counter in kind :P

That said, avoiding all theory crafting and going off what I experienced this season, I will say I played against Soldiers doing stupid shit ,and if not fully getting away with it, being rewarded more so for a stupid play than they otherwise would be. It still benefits better Soldiers more than the bad ones, as does any 'busted' mechanic but like I said in my original post the damage exchange is quite frankly fucking stupid lol. It already was borderline valid to get a good timing on a bomb and attempt to kill enemy Scouts, especially if your Demo tags them, now it is insanely easy to do even to the best of Scouts and without Demo support. It all comes down to a value judgment - because of 10 years of playing this game and expecting the Soldier class to take high self damage when he is near me, I would think a player who willingly plays into this situation is "not very good", and without plugins I would be right cause he'd die for a bunch of dmg and that's about it. With this plugin, he can get a kill/bunch of dmg and jump out at the same time. Add onto this sil's point about isolating the competitive part of the game from the rest and I really do not see the value that these specific plugins have.

Considering there is a whole season of gameplay and that a lot of people did not like the plugins, I would say it is safe to say there is no point in putting them in again in their current state. Perhaps I'm out of touch though and everyone thinks both plugins were poggers.

u r a pyro main

i invented this

2020 been the year of personal emotional devastation i guess. RIP ALL CAPS ON DA MAN NAME

Only gonna make some points that lolguy hasn't already made since that post covers most things already. Also am Euro so just thinking about product here really, tho I don't see why some things can't apply as game/koth principles anyway.

1) When you're exchanging into enemy team that has point, Scout+Soldier exchange is really nice for covering a lot of ground, getting the force out with consistency and then getting your Soldier behind the enemy team. If they chase your pocket, occupy as much ground as possible and depending on how good damage exchange is for you, you can chase deep to help your pocket. Worst case you have secured the point and lost your pocket. If they ignore your pocket you take a fight but with the benefit of a Soldier behind who can destroy them from height / with a bomb.

2) I would say running Spy is gonna be worse than almost any other class you could run in its place. Another important point is that specifically to break Product forward hold you should never be sniping out - the best case scenario is the Demo at cliff is spotting for info and your Sniper hits his first shot on him and you can bust out cliff. I see a lot of teams attempt to snipe out of main to break this forward and have never seen it work either :-/

Nothing to add for 3 and I know nothing about 4 :-(

that's not a team unless you're making it

edit: or a doctor whos

malcom tucker faint gameing

cp_process_f5 and projectiles through team mates are free so I won't even talk about them.

Winger is probably fine now. I wouldn't mind seeing it go completely, but if we're keeping it we should keep the plugin.

Solemn Vow I'm still undecided on and that might be because my team didn't really use it, nor is it the sort of thing you can easily feel/know when it's been used against you. I probably wouldn't mind leaving it unbanned, especially if we're getting rid of the Med-Scout speed plugin so we can try it out again in the meta that's here to stay.

Med-Scout speed: Please do not use this in a season/cup/whatever again. It ruins the flow of the game on the macro level by slowing your med down meaning heals get everywhere slower. On the micro level, it makes the process of getting through a choke hell for Scouts and Medics (Scouts can't run the Medic through and keep beam on them for when they're in the enemy's face making space, Medic spends more time in the choke eating spam), meaning free frags for Demomen and Soldiers.

It makes mid-fights more influential than they already were, which can be fine but the other part that people didn't see coming was how it turns a lot of mid fights into coin-tosses. In the past, if a team was bad at mid-fights they were on track to lose a game unless their last holds were sick, now you can just have 3 people go fast and unless the enemy team sends at least 1 other player to defend their Demo and they don't get the trade kill you've just won a mid before it begins. Really unfun to play as Demo but also a super effective strategy - why play out the mid-fight with heals if you are going to lose every time, just run at the enemy Demo and hope for the best lolololol. This was already possible before Med-speed but was way more ineffective because heals could get to mid pretty quick and save the Demo or make the trade-frag more likely as the one doing the trading would have heals.

The value of an uber also falls without Scout speed, you have to be way less ambitious with them and coupled with the fact that you're catching more spam due to what I said earlier you have to use earlier. Ubers into enclosed areas however are now almost completely the same, if not better and more dumbed-down because the enemy med has no escape mechanism and you're now just bombing Demo+Soldier into them rather than taking the Scout with you.

Most decisions are super dumbed down now - only push off of huge ads, do not push on small ads or off of spawns because u are now too slow to do too much off of them. From a maincalling perspective it's super annoying just being blue-balled on decision making by how slow your Med is and how bad ubers are now. The game is mostly less dynamic without it (sound super vague but if u know u know) but at least scout clarse is not op now guise!!!

Soldier plugin: Yea the old damage u would take was lame but this plugin in its current state is super lame for the other side of the equation. Being bombed by a guy, him hitting you for 150-250 dmg with 2-3 rockets and also jumping out for 20 dmg while the only major damage you can hit on him is while he is close to you (he's only taking chip dmg on the way in/out) is just insane. The dmg exchange is just ridiculously favourable for the Soldier. Genius brain idea: Plugin that makes it so Soldier always take self damage as if he were jumping (with space bar). https://www.teamfortress.tv/55758/how-to-take-40-less-self-damage-on-soldier for reference. This fixes the scenario where Scout can trade with Soldier in Process lobby while only hitting 1 shot but gets rid of the dumbass gameplay that has been happening this season with Soldiers lololol.

also ban iron bomber ty god bless