I have a lot more general thoughts on this conversation as it's progressed that I'll share at a later date, but I can't let this stand as it is right now: Yes, they literally do. That is the premise of skill-divisions. That good teams move up in order to provide less skilled teams with a meaningfully competitive environment for them to compete, develop, and have fun in. The opposite case (that lower level teams are somehow acting selfishly entitled to "an easier path without the challenge") is not equivalent because we all signed up for a league with skill-based divisions. It's not unreasonable as a lower-level team to expect that that is the outcome. Which I would frankly have a hard time believing that you disagree with, so it's obvious that we're not talking about absolute moral truth here, we're having a nuanced discussion about the degree to which a team is being selfish at the expense of the rest of the league's experience, and when it becomes worthwhile for the league to intervene.

If you believe that a sandbagging team should never have to move up, or even offclass, as long as they never win the division, then I can get where you're coming from. I disagree, but I can see the argument. We're letting a few players stagnate for the good of the rest of the league. I would personally worry about the competitive integrity of any playoffs matches that those teams make it to, but as long as the rest of the game is in a good state and the top level of the scene isn't getting choked out of existence by thinning competition at higher divisions, I don't really have a problem with letting teams sandbag within reason. If that were the case though, I would probably support efforts to reduce sandbagging, and lament any growing pains that happen as a result of these new policies as unfortunate but fixable.

Except that, obviously, that is what's happening, that is what RGL's doing, and that's what we're talking about. I think that the game is struggling for a lot more reasons that just sandbagging, obviously, but I just find this question of 'moralizing' outcomes to be a little silly when all that's happening is people expecting the outcomes they were promised. Maybe they get a little overzealous, which is something to talk about, but this should be a conversation about nuanced solutions, rather than categorical dismissals based on faulty logic. Food for thought.

And on this point more quickly:

This is a fantastic point if we're talking about teams that are trying to grow and improve, but we're not, we're talking about sandbagging teams that are playing artificially below their skill level. They are explicitly, definitionally, avoiding being overloaded and forced to adapt to new challenges by playing in a div below what they're capable of. The point of saying that they can just scrim, is that if they want to play artificially below a level they're capable of competing at, for whatever reason, they can do that in scrims just fine, and actually even still provide the overload that forces less skilled players to adapt & improve. Perhaps to a lesser degree than in an official match, but any less skilled team with a serious improvement mindset is going to be able to get a lot, sometimes just as much if not more, out of merely scrimming better teams (speaking from personal experience).

--

And finally to be clear: I am explicitly NOT talking about the millie team/situation here. They are literally not sandbagging, by definition. They are NOT trying to play at a level artificially below what they're capable of. They ARE trying to play at a level appropriate for them and being caught in an unfortunate loophole in the rules that should be fixed. Absolutely no shade to millie & tree, you guys are both excellent members of the community, losing your participation would be a loss to us all, and I hope this decision is changed so that you can play. BUT I don't think that centering this discussion about sandbagging on a team that is obviously not sandbagging is fruitful at this point. I honestly think that a big part of why this discussion has been so frustrating is because the 'pro-sandbagging' side keeps pointing to a team that is obviously not even sandbagging as a confounding point that is unaddressed by arguments meant to address actual sandbagging. Which is by design because, again, millie & tree are not sandbagging.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk. These will not be my final words on this matter.

Slug you seething chud!! ! You forgot what your point was and told a story about your team moving up and how much fun you had in a thread defending never making people move up!!! Do you not see how preposterous that is!!! You guys are making me feel like an insane person!!! I literally agree with you guys but you guys can not make this argument make any fucking sense!!! I feel like I'm being radicalized!!! And Rumpus you're being really disingenuous!!! If a top advanced team is scrimming mostly advanced teams they're throwing!!! You know that!!! I literally do not care if you would rather win a low div than get shit on by banny, if that's where you belong it's where you belong!!! Offclass like an adult or don't play the season!!! No one is making you pay RGL!!!

#FREEMILLIE
#FREETREEE

If the scrim results are crazy I could maybe see restrictions on returning oldheads in low divs but it doesn't sound like that's the case anyway.

Guys!! If All You Wanna Do Is Beat Up On Main Teams For Three Months You Don't Need To Be In The Div!! You Can Actually Do That For Free!!!! Scrims Are FREE!!!!! You Can Play Them Five Nights A Week And Never Lose If That's What You Wanna Do!!! Why Do You Need To Pay The League To Schedule You Two Scrims A Week If All You Want To Do Is 'Chill'!!

If anything I am on RGL's side with this one. We're running a competition here, right? We're competing? If that's the case then why are we catering to people who have no interest in doing that? Even in other hobbie-level sports its not like the teams of guys that wanna get wasted and fuck around never have to play the teams of guys that wanna win. That's part of the deal here, man. I don't care if you (rhetorical) have a "low tolerance for losing", nobody is forcing you to pay the league fees and play the season. Like I said before, Scrims Are FREEEEEEE!!!! And if you just desperately need to give your money to RGL, how about we run an open 'for fun' div where we don't keep score. And if that's not acceptable, think about why, because, again, why are you (rhetorical) entitled to win a competition against other people without having to try?

-

Honestly, I think this whole thing is a nothingburger reddit struggle session about something good happening, that maybe three people are going to throw tantrums over because they can't handle being told they're too big to play in the kiddie pool. Literally who cares. Is this how'd I'd personally handle these restrictions? Probably not. Do I think that this is actually pretty reasonable though? Probably yeah. Sorry bro, third place doesn't mean you're 'perfectly suited' to play the division, it means you're probably a top three player on your class in the div, which means you'd almost certainly fit in just fine the next div up. I'm sorry your friend is annoyed about something the league did, but acting like this decision is somehow 'killing the game' is just gross. Get a grip.

If anything is killing the game, it's this bizarre malaise that's settled over the scene like a fog that makes anything short of the admins letting players do whatever they want the end of competitive integrity. After thinking about it for a while, I actually think that the league taking this more seriously is actually a sign of moves in the right direction. Like I keep saying, we're COMPETING here, right? So why the hell should the whole scene cater to a bunch of jaded oldheads who lost the fire years ago and entitled kids who just want a trophy. One of those should probably be considered more cringe than the other, but neither of them should be the driving force behind league decisions. Because neither of those groups of people is going to bring anything good to the scene at this point, and honestly, I think catering to them is a lot closer to the thing 'killing the game' than class restrictions in main. Just some food for thought.

I was busy during the stream last night, were there any major takeaways?

esea solved sandbagging div-below-invite teams. if everybody wants to be a crybaby about moving up, fine then, no invite and all the invite teams get dropped into your div anyway. i dont think there was a single season of esea that didn't run invite, but that was the conversation every single offseason. ya some of those last-minute-team-9s died, but invite ran, and a lot of those players ended up playing on 'real' invite teams not that long after anyway.

sandbagging is NOT A REAL PROBLEM SHUT UPPPPPPPPPP

(not u specifically @pajaro, just in general)

im a loser who cant help himself from arguing on the internet. I just love it sososo much.

corporate non-answer. if there were a vision and good, motivated leadership, turnover and lack of interest would not be a problem. meaning either leadership is bad, there's no vision, or both (my money is on both).

so just do it lol. If You Build It, They Will Come type shit man. if u guys have useful discussions then people will engage. if it's a bunch of horseshit then nobody is going to bother.

not gonna sugarcoat it either man, u guys have a HUUUUGE bad will debt that u need to pay ur way out of. engaging meaningfully and honestly with the community is a good start, but it's just straight up not going to be enough for most people. that doesn't mean don't do it, that means keep doing it over and over and over until it sticks. even, and especially, if it sucks.

bragging that ur boss is hands off and lets u run ur div however u want isn't exactly confidence inspiring when the whole problem is admins just doing whatever they want lmfao. u should not have 'minimal contact' with the person signing off on every decision u make unless ur really good at making those decisions. if ur just an awesome admin then bully for u i guess, but if they're being hands off with the bad admins too then like, that's the literal problem dude.

????? are u stupid? that means she signed off on them. she's responsible for the decisions. she's the head admin. if they're the wrong decision, she's the one responsible because she's the one in charge and she's the one putting her name on it. if she disagrees, she should nut up and make the right decision. if she agrees, then it's her decision, and holding her responsible is actually correct. insane deflection and cope. just a wild guess, but maybe the fact that she's unwilling to take responsibility behind the scenes is part of why people don't want to work with her.

this right here, this is the type of shit that people remember forever, man. this is the type of shit that digs ur bad will hole deeper. this is the actual problem.

by all means improve ur onboarding process but that is NOT going to fix a single problem, fyi. because the problem isn't actually about onboarding or documentation or sandbagging or w/ever. straight up man, the problem is nobody likes any of u people. in no small part I bet because u do shit like this where u corporate word-salad ur way around these kinds of conversations instead of shooting straight.

I'm not saying u need to be as disrespectful and retarded as me (because nobody likes me either so that'd be really retarded), but like dude; we're 20 years in here and we have fuck all to show for it, and u guys are all STILL playing politics like ur gonna go on to bigger and brighter things, and ur worried that one not-very-professional-sounding forum post is going to sink ur gubernatorial campaign in 30 years. like, SHUT UP ALREADY!!!!!!!! fucking do something good for the scene or stop getting in between people and their hobby. this game is going nowhere, so just get out of the way and let people play. ffs.

and since i guess the main thing u guys are worried about here is 'sandbagging' here's my personal thoughts on the matter:

--

tl/dr is basically get ur head out of ur asses, all of you. I love this game A LOT and I really really wanna see it grow just as much as anyone, but we need to be real here. we aren’t running a front-line hospital in ww3, we’re facilitating a hobby. we can either be the obnoxious rules-lawyers who make up busywork for ourselves that makes people give up on the hobby, or we can be reasonable, responsible adults and operate like we all trust eachother to have some fun and not take the bullshit parts of all of this too seriously.

--

And I don’t mean to seem super pessimistic about all of this. I would love nothing more than for TF2 to be the biggest esport in the world, but if the plan for getting there is ‘make sure that the number of team signups is bigger than last season’ we are going to get nowhere fast. do SOMETHING. reach out to potential sponsors like you’re eddie fucking jordan. try and find b and c-tier tourneys for other games that we can piggyback for more LANs AND show off the game to other potential gamers. get the community involved, and support the people who step up and actually do shit. clean up the fucking pedos and rapists that still won’t fuck off. like, do anything man, I’m begging. Or shut up and get out of the way if none of that sounds appealing to you.

thanks for reading. this will not be my final words on the matter.

the game is 20 years old and dying, and this scene has been stagnant for what feels like 10 years of that time. this thread feels like a critique of the band playing on the Titanic while the ship goes down. actually what are we doing here? ofc this shit is going to turn into petty reddit mod type dudes (gender neutral) turning whatever corner of the league they get their grubby mitts on into their personal fiefdom, that's just what happens when nothing matters anymore and everyone who cares about anything or knows how to do anything moved on 10 years ago when OW came out and offered them a paycheck to do what they're passionate about. it's honestly insane to me that the scene is around at all at this point. there are like 5 or 6 guys (gender neutral) who give enough of a shit and do enough shit to keep the ball rolling and best case they're just taken for granted, and worst case people complain that they don't work enough miracles. like, stfu, honestly. it's delusional. the fact is that there are no selling points for tf2 as an esport, and we are no longer in an era where a 'grassroots community' matters for esports because anybody who is capable of doing any of the actual things that make the scene go round could go make money doing it for a game that will actually, yknow, PAY THEM. and yeah it'd be awesome if we could crowdfund 100 grand a year to pay a couple of people's salaries to really get shit poppin again but if we're dreaming why not just dream about daddy valve coming home from the store and loving us again.

idk. like, it's been the same thread for 10 years man. at this point what is 'admin transparency' supposed to do? like what, do you just need to know absolutely for a fact that the bad decisions that the admins make are because they're being made by petulant morons? ofc they are, those are the only people stupid enough to still want the job. there are still some good people trying to do good and #notalladmins or w/ever. but like, seriously, any good admin in tf2 is doing, at this point, A LOT of charity work, and they don't even get to write it off on their taxes. for the most part tho, anybody with any drive or ambition or passion or determination or literally any positive quality is going to either move on from tf2 as soon as they get the chance or not even bother starting here because tf2 is a dead fucking end.

and it's not all valve's fault either, by the way. the culture around the game blows chunks for literally too many reasons to enumerate rn. but suffice it to say that that's gonna push away pretty much the rest of the people who are capable and give a shit.

anyways shout outs to siyo, antlers, underscore, lacy, bethnicz, all the rest of the fireside dudes (gender neutral), arcadia, comanglia, eXtine, nonoe, everyone from TF.TV and kritzkast, TRI!, whatever literal angel is keeping logs.tf running, arie, lange, ENIGMA! everyone at tempus, steph, all the mge.tf people, everyone else i'm forgetting right now, and everyone who's ever run or worked on a project or done anything for the community because you actually gave a shit. you're all braver, stronger, and more determined than I could ever be. ur all my personal heroes.

Sure, I'll be the guy.

The TF2 competitive community has blackpilled me on large/online communities maybe just about as much as anything ever could. There is something very sick that is very deep in this community, but absolutely not unique to it, and it's made it very hard to want to participate over the years in any community at all.

That said, I think it behooves me not to beat around the bush. I had some very alarming experiences when I started climbing the skill and recognition ladders more quickly. Specifically with coaching / mentoring. Even me, a complete nobody, had a lot of people reaching out for demo reviews and whatnot. But what was alarming was how many of them were quite young, and what was much more alarming was how many of them were way overly personal and even, on occasion, explicitly flirtatious. Obviously I rebuffed all of these advances and, when appropriate, tried to offer some guidance towards not making themselves vulnerable to complete strangers, but what has stuck with me for years now is how often it was happening, and how nobody in the community was talking about it.

Since then, I've spoken privately with other TF2 players about this, with much trepidation, and to my horror, had it confirmed to me that I wasn't crazy. And I've even spoken with people in other communities, both online and IRL, and again to my horror, been made aware that this isn't even a specifically gaming, let alone TF2, problem. Everywhere, apparently, there are kids making themselves vulnerable to complete strangers and no one is talking about it.

Please do not confuse this for victim blaming. I don't blame anyone for developing parasocial relationships in today's world, least of all kids who lack the experience and guidance to know better. The Nurseys and brokings of the world are obviously the ones at fault for taking advantage of that vulnerability, and should be punished fully, both legally and socially.

But what frankly disgusts me about our community is the complete vacuum of conversation about this. These kids need to be told that they are NOT safe around someone just because they're better than them at a videogame, or stream every now and then, or play shows at the local DIY venue, or hang out at the local card shop, or whatever. And people in these positions of even marginal power need to know that their behavior matters. They are in a totally unique social situation where they need to be very careful to yes, be respectful, but also maintain very clear delineations between acceptable and unacceptable behavior.

Frankly, I'm surprised there haven't been a lot more stories like Nursey's. Hopefully that means that most community members are good people behind the scenes and feel the way that I feel about all of this. But it terrifies me to think that that might not be the case, and that it's only the most disgusting, egregious, evil people that are actually getting caught and punished. And the recent ETF2L admin situation doesn't exactly inspire much confidence in the former.

All of which is to say that you're absolutely right, Alias, that we do an honestly embarrassing job of protecting kids in this community. Both in terms of policing inappropriate behavior from potential predators, as well as educating kids on how to stay safe in a community so beset with, frankly, freaks and losers.

As far as what exactly to do? I don't have much of an idea. I agree with Tob that continuing to ridicule the perpetrators is a good start, as far as it keeps the possibility of this stuff happening top of mind for the community at large. I would very much also like to see the conversation expanded to include ways for kids to keep themselves safe online, and draw very clear lines around acceptable behavior in these kinds of situations for anyone in an exploitable position of power. As far as how to accomplish any of that? Again, not much of an idea. As funny as it is to imagine mandatory sexual misconduct training for invite players, I don't think that's feasible or likely to be effective.

I also agree with Tob that tftv isn't the place necessarily to focus on the victims in cases like this. I've also known people who've been victims of grooming and abuse, and having an entire community barrel down on them, even with good intentions, is not as helpful as the community might hope it to be.

I think focusing on prevention & punishment in public forums like this is much more appropriate, and if anyone is going to offer support and/or resources to victims outside of their extant support network, it should be someone within the league organization that is qualified & responsible enough to do so. Having admins, or maybe one or two of the top admins, go through training to be qualified to offer resources and support where appropriate might actually be both feasible and effective, and could even lead to other effective policies being implemented league-wide. Unfortunately, neither of the two most relevant leagues to tftv have a particularly good track record with policies like that in the past, but hey, we can dream, can't we?

TL;DR: Many kids make it a habit to make themselves vulnerable to more powerful people in communities. We should do a much better job educating them on how to stay safe online, as well as educating the community at large how to maintain appropriate relationships from both sides of the power dynamic.

Thank you for starting this conversation. This has been on my mind for a very long time, and I'm just as disappointed in myself for not having it as I am in the rest of the community. Kids, stay safe out there, and everyone else, don't be a fucking nonce.

What a brilliant fucking season this was. Gutted for Max, but he seemed unbothered. Lando might've actually beaten the bottler allegations finally, his growth this season was amazing to watch. Hopefully Oscar can shake it off too going forward. Here's hoping Zak Brown never gets put in front of a microphone or a camera ever again, and Yas Marina sinks into the sea and we never have to watch a race here ever again!

See ya next year(Ferrari's Year)!!!

And just like that, Lando, Max, and Oscar are within 24 points of one another with one sprint and two GPs left.

now that tf2 is legal, will all the pedos finally stop playing it?

BEAST!

PUSSY!

AMX for five straight, I've got a good feeling....

kids cant think for themselves, manipulating them in to having sex with you is bad, don't care what poland thinks abt it or what words u use to describe it