I would say that for a healthier discussion, people should not rise to others' personal attacks.

However, Mr. Slin will post long, thought-out paragraphs politely and respectfully explaining his position, and he gets -40 frags and people respond "lol ur a faggot"

This does not refute anything he has to say, but rather immediately results to shitflinging.

The past has been rough, yes. But you now have an opportunity to capitalize on the potential of this game. B4nny isn't going to throw that away, he's going to work for it because he loves the game and wants it to succeed and grow. He's willing to put up with some unlocks if it means making the game become bigger and better.

Didn't even seriously read what I wrote or give it a chance. The game is spiraling down into the shitter, and all you guys can do is dismiss any discussion about how to make it stop. You think downvoting me makes my post any less true?

This game will die. It's completely irrelevant as is. Its comp format is broken and shitty. And all you guys do is complain.

Same conversation, same snarky, self-gratifying response.

Serious question: what's the big "fix" that will "fix" TF2? long, whiny rant incoming

Not trying to blame you guys, but this comp community hates the offclasses and would prefer they stay the same. Most of the comp members hate 90% of the unlocks and would prefer that they just stay banned (and rightfully so, but still). You hate any other mode than 5cp and viaduct.

It's this weird circular logic, and it goes like this:

tf2 is full of unfun broken shit. We aren't going to try to fix the broken shit because that would mean using broken shit (pyro), which we don't want to do because it isn't fun, so we won't fix it, and it'll stay the same.

I've had so many arguments with people over the years on forums, ingame, and in person about how to fix the game. I get this same argument time and time again, about how they want everything to stay the same yet want valve to """fix""" everything.

No one gives a shit about 6s because 6s is nothing like actual TF2. Team fortress is very similar to overwatch, in some ways.

A heavy tries to push last on dustbowl. He has 450 health with a medic. He can't push around the corner because a sniper has a fully charged headshot waiting for him. A scout would try to harass the sniper, but there is a sentry nest stopping him. So, a spy can either back-stab the oblivious snipers, or try to back stab the engineers and sap while the heavy medic combo ubers through. A demo man got through the corner spam and is now on a catwalk, spamming the point from the right. However, a pyro came through sewer and is lighting the whole blu team on fire, making them retreat. This is TF2. Not whatever the fuck 6s is, dustbowl. 2fort. tc_hydro. goldrush. This is what people fell in love with, the teamplay and classes countering each other.

A scout can't out-DM an awake heavy with a pocket medic. A spy, or a sniper can take them out better. A scout can get past a sniper easily and harass him. A pyro has a big flamethrower that can easily hit a scout, and because scout has little health, pyro counters scout. But the heavies, the demos, and the soldiers can kill pyro with ease. The game has many counters in it that require you to cooperate with your team, much like overwatch.

So it's no surprise that the average tf2 player isn't interested in a scout/soldier Quake DM shitfest with a demo and an uber mixed in. Everything that makes TF2 unique to quake has been systematically removed in 6s, besides the uber I think.

So you ask "why is badwater and turbine in the matchmaking map pool?" Well, it's because those maps are familiar to the average player. I know sunshine and reckoner sure as fuck aren't. B4nny is the most popular comp tf2 player, and the average tf2 player doesn't know who the fuck b4nny even is.

They know who king raja and STAR_ are. They know about Muselk. These are players who make content about the base game, not 6s.

I know it sounds like I'm defending valve, but I'm really not. I'll be right there with you and be another complaining voice. But if you ACTUALLY WANT THIS GAME TO SUCCEED AND GROW, you'll have to cede a couple of things:

1. The average TF2 player will never give a shit about comp unless off classes are regularly used. This is just how it is.

2. If you want to """fix""" the game, you'll have to be willing to try things out. This means not immediately dismissing theorycrafting about airblasting, ubers, or any of the offclasses/unlocks in general. Whenever someone asks, "How can we make engi/heavy/pyro/spy work better in 6s?" you should actually answer the question instead of memeing and say "remove them"

3. TF2 was always built as a pub game, and unless it undergoes massive reworks, it will always be a garbage competitive game. If you like the gameplay of 6s, go play some quake clone. I promise you, it'll be way better than what 6s offers. Reflex, UT4, quakelive, Seriously, there's even a new game coming called Diabotical, made by a old quake pro who knows what the fuck esports are. Maybe even Quake champions will be good. Point is, You can't eat your cake and have it too.

dude give valve some slack they only make hundreds of millions of dollars off this game every year

many of my friends, and myself, are still having issues

I'm also going to come out and say that they should be able to remove these bugs once and for all. Gun mettle was summer 2015, why do we still have this issue every time there's new contracts?

Why are you expecting Valve to fix terrible, game breaking bugs with relative speed?

It's not like they fix bugs for the online store within a day or anything

It's just ironic how much bitching there is about how granary is unplayable, but if it's replaced by turbine, suddenly valve has gone too far

You guys don't even play matchmaking what the fuck are you actually complaining about

they're testing out shit, whatever

Pubbing on dustbowl or koth_harvest. I know everyone hates the offclasses to death, but they're what made this game really magical.

Backstabbing a heavy medic combo.
headshotting a fully buffed heavy.
having your sentry gun mow down 10 people trying to get out of spawn.
backburning 4 people who you flanked.
pushing last with 3 ubers against 4 sentries
spawn camping as demo on 2fort.

etc

Dare I dream for 4 cores being used?

Ya perhaps I spoke too rashly. I see your point

I heard that Unreal Tournament 4 is a joint project between the pros and the devs, both can make versions for others to try out. Hopefully it works out for them, and I would like to see that for TF2.

Just to address this, we don't need valve. Look at Smash bros: Melee. Literally 0 developer for the past 15 years, no online, limited character roster with intense mechanical skill and a competitive scene with an already insanely good playerbase. They manage to keep their old, graphically outdated fighting game healthy and alive. What's keeping TF2 from growing is how we turn away new players.

Let's say some kid likes TF2 after he found it online, and he gets better, starts watching some frag movies, and starts investigating comp TF2. The kid gets greeted with teams that are way more skilled than their division, but are sandbagging and BM'ing just to fuck around. And then these careless, higher skilled players say that the game will be dead anyway so they might as well fuck around against noobs. Does that seem welcome? Inviting? Inclusive? This game could grow and be massive as a grassroots esports game, we're the third most played game on steam.

So this kid's first impression of the pro scene is one where the good players dont care, and are too afraid to play against better teams, so they troll and BM against noobs. And then they say it doesn't matter because the game will die.

Look, TF2 is my favorite game. I love bombing the medic. I love surviving bombings as medic. I love air rockets, meatshots, rocket jumping, pipes, pushing and capping last, defending last against a push, all of it. But sometimes this community is fucking trash, and that makes it difficult to feel invested. There are lots of other alternatives with much better financial viability and way superior communities, but I stick with TF2 because I prefer TF2. I really wish organizations would crack down on shitty behavior, we have some great community members who do a lot, but their efforts are wasted on sandbaggers hellbent on ruining everyone else's competitive experience

I give valve a lot of shit, and that's evident from what I posted above. However, there are some issues with this community that I dislike. People tend to BM and constantly spout doom and gloom, which makes the competitive experience awful for newcomers. It makes it seem like the comp scene treats this game as a joke.

Even at invite level, people just fuck around and don't take the game seriously: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSkK2flXH68

If we're going to grill valve for fucking up, then let's be fair and call out bad behavior where it exists. Teams don't want to move up and play against better teams, because they'd rather crush and BM against noobs. Players who mge a lot get made fun of for actually putting for the effort and time and to get better DM (they get called lobby lords, sweaty, etc.). TF2 center and mixchamp are a cess pool of people grunting and whining about their team.

We make fun of pubbers and highlander, yet we don't take the game seriously ourselves. If we really care about competitive TF2 being a thing, then we should act better as a community. Don't BM against worse teams, don't taunt them, don't troll if you start losing, just say 'gg' and have some objective post game discussion with the other team.

In general, I'm scared for what the pyro update will bring. If this is really valve turning a new leaf, then why aren't they openly discussing pyro with us?

Pyro back in 2007 was an ambush class. A pyro couldn't get close unless he snuck up on people and ambushed them. The flamethrower hits multiple targets, and has a wide spread preventing evasion of damage. Even if pyro dies, he gets rewarded with an additional 60 damage on any target he hits. This is pyro in a pub scenario.

Now we're in 2016. We have a big pyro update coming, but we have no idea what valve will do. I doubt they really understand the issue(s) with pyro and comp tf2. Stuff like:

-Should pyro just be a class to defend against full uber ads on last?
-Should pyro have ammo for 10 airblasts?
-Should pyro be able to airblast in quick succession?
-Should the airblast prevent air strafing?
-Should the flamethrower do more damage? less damage? how does falloff factor in?
-Should the flamethrower be skinnier? Fatter? Longer? Shorter?
-Should afterburn be reworked? How does the afterburn mechanic fit into TF2 in general?

I'm just afraid the pyro update will come out, and nothing will have changed, and the class will still be a giant piece of shit.

Okay, let me pose the R8 situation to you again.
Counter strike is an economy game. Items have prices and certain tactical advantages. Players use money they get from winning and getting kills to purchase items, which then can be used to get more kills/wins.
The best item in counter strike is a $5000 sniper rifle that kills with one shot. It is a strong asset, but if you are not careful, it might fall into the enemy's hands.
Now, when valve adds an $800 pistol, that is better in every conceivable way, don't you think that might pose some issues? Have you really deceived yourself into believing that Valve doesn't push updates because the updates aren't good?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd_QeY9uATA

Educate yourself. Here we have valve quite literally admitting that they avoid developing new content in general because it might not be liked, and we have them admitting that they add fugly shit cosmetics because people will buy them anyway. I'll post another video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIikwDbZTCI

Valve talks in depth about their visual design for teamfortress 2, focusing on visual clarity, muted colors, and a reference color palette consisting of blues, reds, browns, and greys. You'll notice that valve throws these concepts out the door when it comes to making a lot of money. People will buy a lime green banana hat, even if it looks bad.

Same thing with the revolver. It temporarily gets people back into CS and gets a lot of attention. The first week is full of people buying keys and selling $300 skins on the community market, only for valve to nerf the gun into uselessness a little later. They haven't added any content worthwhile, but had a week where people would go crazy and buy a lot of virtual goods. When it comes to making money, the actual quality of the product does not matter to valve, nor any established game developer. Making a lot of cash is the only end goal, TF2 and CSGO might suffer and become terrible games, but the profit margins are enormous.

It's time we stop giving them the benefit of the doubt for creating great games almost a decade ago.