So recently me and a friend had a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong debate on what we think is the right answer to this question and we are at an impass and will never agree with each other no matter the result of this discussion (egos too big to admit we are wrong). That being said, I pose this question to all of my fellow 6s enthusiasts.
Generally speaking, in a dm/mge situation where it is a scout vs a soldier where both players are equally matched in skill level, which class should come out on top?
We both have our opinions and reasons to backup our conclusions but, we are hoping to see what the community responds to this question. Please try and keep your responses bias free and solely base it around the context of the question.
So recently me and a friend had a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong debate on what we think is the right answer to this question and we are at an impass and will never agree with each other no matter the result of this discussion (egos too big to admit we are wrong). That being said, I pose this question to all of my fellow 6s enthusiasts.
Generally speaking, in a dm/mge situation where it is a scout vs a soldier where both players are equally matched in skill level, which class should come out on top?
We both have our opinions and reasons to backup our conclusions but, we are hoping to see what the community responds to this question. Please try and keep your responses bias free and solely base it around the context of the question.
Assuming neither gets the jump on the other, it depends like 90% on terrain
Assuming neither gets the jump on the other, it depends like 90% on terrain
If they're truly equally skilled, then the only possible out come is that the soldier dies to the scatter while the scout simultaneously dies to a rocket that had been shot milliseconds earlier.
If they're truly equally skilled, then the only possible out come is that the soldier dies to the scatter while the scout simultaneously dies to a rocket that had been shot milliseconds earlier.
Pocket > Scout > Roamer.
From my experience.
Edit: Assuming the roamer is using Gunboats.
Pocket > Scout > Roamer.
From my experience.
Edit: Assuming the roamer is using Gunboats.
lets use badlands mid as an example
lets use badlands mid as an example
Ramble_OnIf they're truly equally skilled, then the only possible out come is that the soldier dies to the scatter while the scout simultaneously dies to a rocket that had been shot milliseconds earlier.
so you dont believe one class can outclass the other with the traits provided to each class i.e. (splash damage vs movement speed and double jump)?
[quote=Ramble_On]If they're truly equally skilled, then the only possible out come is that the soldier dies to the scatter while the scout simultaneously dies to a rocket that had been shot milliseconds earlier.[/quote]
so you dont believe one class can outclass the other with the traits provided to each class i.e. (splash damage vs movement speed and double jump)?
there's too many variables to answer a question like this
there's too many variables to answer a question like this
if you're both bad soldier will win
if you're both good i think scout would win but you'd have to ask someone good
also depends on how gay the scout is willing to play
if you're both bad soldier will win
if you're both good i think scout would win but you'd have to ask someone good
also depends on how gay the scout is willing to play
boomerthere's too many variables to answer a question like this
the way i see it, and this is just personal opinion. there is alot more of a chance of a scout winning the battle solely for the projectile vs hit scan weapons. projectiles can be easily dodged and avoided as long as you are in view of the person firing it (in most cases) where as even if you are looking directly at a scout its alot harder to be able to dodge his hitscan because the damage is instantaneous. with the added movement speed and double jump a scout playing from mid range distance is more likely to win the fight even if the soldier has the height advantage
[quote=boomer]there's too many variables to answer a question like this[/quote]
the way i see it, and this is just personal opinion. there is alot more of a chance of a scout winning the battle solely for the projectile vs hit scan weapons. projectiles can be easily dodged and avoided as long as you are in view of the person firing it (in most cases) where as even if you are looking directly at a scout its alot harder to be able to dodge his hitscan because the damage is instantaneous. with the added movement speed and double jump a scout playing from mid range distance is more likely to win the fight even if the soldier has the height advantage
what im trying to ask is do you guys think that its completely on the player of the outcome no matter what, or is there a set standard as to how a class should be performing against another
what im trying to ask is do you guys think that its completely on the player of the outcome no matter what, or is there a set standard as to how a class should be performing against another
ScubaSquidlets use badlands mid as an example
Strongly depends on the players but I'd say scout in this instance
[quote=ScubaSquid]lets use badlands mid as an example[/quote]
Strongly depends on the players but I'd say scout in this instance
Scout wins more often if they can play a gay 1v1 where you pistol from across the map all day. If a soldier camps inside an indoor area with flat terrain soldier will basically always win.
Terrain is everything for the matchup. 1v1 scout's mobility usually wins, but if the game were say, team objective based, it would be much more closer and incomparable/situational.
Scout wins more often if they can play a gay 1v1 where you pistol from across the map all day. If a soldier camps inside an indoor area with flat terrain soldier will basically always win.
Terrain is everything for the matchup. 1v1 scout's mobility usually wins, but if the game were say, team objective based, it would be much more closer and incomparable/situational.
soldier > scout of equal skill.
soldier > scout of [u]equal skill[/u].
we are discussing a regular 1v1 situation where both players are playing to kill not to win... if that makes sense?
we are discussing a regular 1v1 situation where both players are playing to kill not to win... if that makes sense?
Ruwinsoldier > scout of equal skill.
could you elaborate?
[quote=Ruwin]soldier > scout of [u]equal skill[/u].[/quote]
could you elaborate?
Scouts are the best and most effective death match class, and soldiers are a counter to the scout.
However...
The only reason why soldier's are a counter to the scout is because of their max HP when combined with a medic.
In an unhealed scout vs soldier fight, a scout should probably win it (not all the time, but let's say in a best of 100, the scout would probably win slightly more fights). Stripping 200 HP off a soldier is quite easy while stripping 125 health off a scout is still pretty much just as difficult as killing an overhealed scout.
When both classes are overhealed, the advantage swings in the soldier's favor as he gains more HP from the overheal. It is extremely difficult for a scout to take down a 300 HP soldier before a soldier can take down a 185 HP scout.
You can kind of apply the same logic to the Heavy. An unhealed Heavy is weak as shit but pump him up to 450 HP and suddenly he's a huge threat on the battlefield.
Scouts are the best and most effective death match class, and soldiers are a counter to the scout.
However...
The only reason why soldier's are a counter to the scout is because of their max HP when combined with a medic.
In an unhealed scout vs soldier fight, a scout should probably win it (not all the time, but let's say in a best of 100, the scout would probably win slightly more fights). Stripping 200 HP off a soldier is quite easy while stripping 125 health off a scout is still pretty much just as difficult as killing an overhealed scout.
When both classes are overhealed, the advantage swings in the soldier's favor as he gains more HP from the overheal. It is extremely difficult for a scout to take down a 300 HP soldier before a soldier can take down a 185 HP scout.
You can kind of apply the same logic to the Heavy. An unhealed Heavy is weak as shit but pump him up to 450 HP and suddenly he's a huge threat on the battlefield.
ArxScouts are the best and most effective death match class, and soldiers are a counter to the scout.
However...
The only reason why soldier's are a counter to the scout is because of their max HP when combined with a medic.
In an unhealed scout vs soldier fight, a scout should probably win it (not all the time, but let's say in a best of 100, the scout would probably win slightly more fights). Stripping 200 HP off a soldier is quite easy while stripping 125 health off a scout is still pretty much just as difficult as killing an overhealed scout.
When both classes are overhealed, the advantage swings in the soldier's favor as he gains more HP from the overheal. It is extremely difficult for a scout to take down a 300 HP soldier before a soldier can take down a 185 HP scout.
You can kind of apply the same logic to the Heavy. An unhealed Heavy is weak as shit but pump him up to 450 HP and suddenly he's a huge threat on the battlefield.
Would the same apply if the soldier was using gunboats?
[quote=Arx]Scouts are the best and most effective death match class, and soldiers are a counter to the scout.
However...
The only reason why soldier's are a counter to the scout is because of their max HP when combined with a medic.
In an unhealed scout vs soldier fight, a scout should probably win it (not all the time, but let's say in a best of 100, the scout would probably win slightly more fights). Stripping 200 HP off a soldier is quite easy while stripping 125 health off a scout is still pretty much just as difficult as killing an overhealed scout.
When both classes are overhealed, the advantage swings in the soldier's favor as he gains more HP from the overheal. It is extremely difficult for a scout to take down a 300 HP soldier before a soldier can take down a 185 HP scout.
You can kind of apply the same logic to the Heavy. An unhealed Heavy is weak as shit but pump him up to 450 HP and suddenly he's a huge threat on the battlefield.[/quote]
Would the same apply if the soldier was using gunboats?
300hp gunboat soldiers dont exist unless you're tri
300hp gunboat soldiers dont exist unless you're tri
As a general rule of thumb, in MGE, the scout should pretty much always win because they can manipulate the terrain effectively to deny the soldier the ability to shoot ground and get decent damage. A lot of folks say for solly vs scout, in MGE, the soldier is on a timer and if he can't manage to get the kill before the scout gets to where he wants to be to chip damage + manipulate the terrain to deny you splash, the soldier loses, in general.
The gunboat soldier is at an even larger disadvantage because he has no hit scan weapon, so if the scout *does* get to some high ground or place that's hard to splash, the GB solly is going to die. Especially given that jumping against a scout is basically guaranteed death.
As a general rule of thumb, in MGE, the scout should pretty much always win because they can manipulate the terrain effectively to deny the soldier the ability to shoot ground and get decent damage. A lot of folks say for solly vs scout, in MGE, the soldier is on a timer and if he can't manage to get the kill before the scout gets to where he wants to be to chip damage + manipulate the terrain to deny you splash, the soldier loses, in general.
The gunboat soldier is at an even larger disadvantage because he has no hit scan weapon, so if the scout *does* get to some high ground or place that's hard to splash, the GB solly is going to die. Especially given that jumping against a scout is basically guaranteed death.
ScubaSquidboomerthere's too many variables to answer a question like this
the way i see it, and this is just personal opinion. there is alot more of a chance of a scout winning the battle solely for the projectile vs hit scan weapons. projectiles can be easily dodged and avoided as long as you are in view of the person firing it (in most cases) where as even if you are looking directly at a scout its alot harder to be able to dodge his hitscan because the damage is instantaneous. with the added movement speed and double jump a scout playing from mid range distance is more likely to win the fight even if the soldier has the height advantage
its really not
when you say that projectiles are easier dodged than hitscan thats kinda bullshit/an opinion presented as fact because a lot of soldiers who are really good at mge are good at soldier v scout because they just know which splash rockets to shoot to deny the scout getting close to them without taking damage
different players with different movement-styles and different sensitivites all present different ways of dodging and aiming that really make the arguement about which one is easier to dodge a pretty useless one
if theres no timelimit a scout should literally never die to a soldier because hes faster and can just stay at mid+ range where his weapons/movement are way more efficient than the soldiers and rape him
generally speaking if you have to get close to a soldier the soldier should win
that being said you dont have 40 seconds to chip away a soldiers buff in a game, he will have his team show up
this is why these questions are pretty fucking stupid to argue about because tf2 doesnt happen in a vacuum, the closest thing to that is ammomod (mge) which still has a ton of easily abuse-able mechanics
a huge part of being an effective scout is being able to not miss while you have shit loaded and are closing in on a soldier
watching people like yz50 a few seasons ago or clockwork now who can literally shoot as fast as possible while dodging and never hitting less than 60 is really cool and impressive, which i guess is why so many people think of them as the top dm-heavy scouts
tl;dr you guys should argue about which color is the best or what is the best kind of weather because it would honestly be a more logical/relevant arguement
[quote=ScubaSquid][quote=boomer]there's too many variables to answer a question like this[/quote]
the way i see it, and this is just personal opinion. there is alot more of a chance of a scout winning the battle solely for the projectile vs hit scan weapons. projectiles can be easily dodged and avoided as long as you are in view of the person firing it (in most cases) where as even if you are looking directly at a scout its alot harder to be able to dodge his hitscan because the damage is instantaneous. with the added movement speed and double jump a scout playing from mid range distance is more likely to win the fight even if the soldier has the height advantage[/quote]
its really not
when you say that projectiles are easier dodged than hitscan thats kinda bullshit/an opinion presented as fact because a lot of soldiers who are really good at mge are good at soldier v scout because they just know which splash rockets to shoot to deny the scout getting close to them without taking damage
different players with different movement-styles and different sensitivites all present different ways of dodging and aiming that really make the arguement about which one is easier to dodge a pretty useless one
if theres no timelimit a scout should literally never die to a soldier because hes faster and can just stay at mid+ range where his weapons/movement are way more efficient than the soldiers and rape him
generally speaking if you have to get close to a soldier the soldier should win
that being said you dont have 40 seconds to chip away a soldiers buff in a game, he will have his team show up
this is why these questions are pretty fucking stupid to argue about because tf2 doesnt happen in a vacuum, the closest thing to that is ammomod (mge) which still has a ton of easily abuse-able mechanics
a huge part of being an effective scout is being able to not miss while you have shit loaded and are closing in on a soldier
watching people like yz50 a few seasons ago or clockwork now who can literally shoot as fast as possible while dodging and never hitting less than 60 is really cool and impressive, which i guess is why so many people think of them as the top dm-heavy scouts
tl;dr you guys should argue about which color is the best or what is the best kind of weather because it would honestly be a more logical/relevant arguement
Ruwinsoldier > scout of equal skill.
;)
[quote=Ruwin]soldier > scout of [u]equal skill[/u].[/quote]
;)
Why is the sky grey? Why is the grass grey? Why is a rainbow grey, grey, grey, grey, grey and infra-grey?
Why is the sky grey? Why is the grass grey? Why is a rainbow grey, grey, grey, grey, grey and infra-grey?
If the scout happens to be clockwork or squid anything can happen tbh.
If the scout happens to be clockwork or squid anything can happen tbh.
soldier wins this matchup so fucking easily
holy shit what a class
soldier wins this matchup so fucking easily
holy shit what a class
Ruwin is one of the best scouts in the game, so if he believes Soldier > scout, I would tend to trust his opinion. At badlands mid the soldier can also jump to a house to grab a health pack in 2 seconds where the scout has to run there.
The scout needs to get the jump on the soldier to secure the kill. The soldier just has to bounce the scout with 1 rocket to get the kill. So the soldier does have the upper hand.
Ruwin is one of the best scouts in the game, so if he believes Soldier > scout, I would tend to trust his opinion. At badlands mid the soldier can also jump to a house to grab a health pack in 2 seconds where the scout has to run there.
The scout needs to get the jump on the soldier to secure the kill. The soldier just has to bounce the scout with 1 rocket to get the kill. So the soldier does have the upper hand.
I personally would expect the scout to win in most DM/MGE situations assuming equal skill.
I personally would expect the scout to win in most DM/MGE situations assuming equal skill.
"splash is too hard, lemme pull out my shotgun"
"oh wait I can't aim that either"
"this matchup is too hard, I don't have enough primaries!!!"
"splash is too hard, lemme pull out my shotgun"
"oh wait I can't aim that either"
"this matchup is too hard, I don't have enough primaries!!!"
A scout should be able to win 90% of the time if they simply chip damage. Their speed and double jump ability should allow them to gain terrain advantage in most situations, minimising the possible splash damage they take.
A scout should be able to win 90% of the time if they simply chip damage. Their speed and double jump ability should allow them to gain terrain advantage in most situations, minimising the possible splash damage they take.
you say that but
what does any soldier say when a scout outgays them
you say that but
what does any soldier say when a scout outgays them