With the debate going high on what might make CTF viable in the competitive scene, with experimental maps being created and the general consensus every time being that CTF simply doesnt work in 6v6, I decided to create this thread. The staleness built into the gamemode, coupled with the big differences between the standard 5 CP maps and the average CTF map means it's nearly impossible to develop a "standard" CTF map that would work in 6v6 (turbine being a miraculous exception with its simplistic design). Personally I've been reflecting a lot over the issue, and finally I've created a concept that I want to share for some feedback.
The idea is basically taking the standard 5 CP map, and converting it to CTF. This means the gameplay won't be that different from the one we're used to, but still hopefully providing some fresh air into competitive maps.
Here's the basic idea: take a regular 5 CP map. Now, instead of fighting over the mid point at the start, there will be an intelligence unlocked some ten-fifteen seconds into the mid fight, at the mid point. The team that picks it up now "controls" the mid point, and have to carry the flag to the next point. To capture it they have to enter the capture zone while no enemies are blocking it. After a short delay, a new flag will spawn at the same capture point, and pushing will continue. In order to avoid camping with the flag, there will be a two minute timer ticking down, during which time the next point will have to be captured, or a flag that will only be possible to pick up by the opponents will spawn at their second point. Basically, it will be a 2 minute time limit A/D CTF, until either team captures the final point of the opponent. If the flag changes teams, the capture timer resets to two minutes. Should the flag lie on the ground, the timer stops.
You have to agree that the gameplay will be rather similar to the generic 5 CP one, with some major differences.
- Gameplay will be fast. 2 minute timers will force teams to push in order to retain momentum. Will turtling be too powerful?
- Gameplay will be more focused around attack/defense - backcaps won't be available
- Gameplay might be more versatile, with an intel being the only way of capping diverse strats might be viable.
So... this being said, what are your intial thoughts on the concept? Numbers are of course subject for tweaking, but I really think this might be a way of making CTF work, and at the same time changing up the good ol' 5 CP concept, without completely leaving it.
With the debate going high on what might make CTF viable in the competitive scene, with experimental maps being created and the general consensus every time being that CTF simply doesnt work in 6v6, I decided to create this thread. The staleness built into the gamemode, coupled with the big differences between the standard 5 CP maps and the average CTF map means it's nearly impossible to develop a "standard" CTF map that would work in 6v6 (turbine being a miraculous exception with its simplistic design). Personally I've been reflecting a lot over the issue, and finally I've created a concept that I want to share for some feedback.
The idea is basically taking the standard 5 CP map, and converting it to CTF. This means the gameplay won't be that different from the one we're used to, but still hopefully providing some fresh air into competitive maps.
Here's the basic idea: take a regular 5 CP map. Now, instead of fighting over the mid point at the start, there will be an intelligence unlocked some ten-fifteen seconds into the mid fight, at the mid point. The team that picks it up now "controls" the mid point, and have to carry the flag to the next point. To capture it they have to enter the capture zone while no enemies are blocking it. After a short delay, a new flag will spawn at the same capture point, and pushing will continue. In order to avoid camping with the flag, there will be a two minute timer ticking down, during which time the next point will have to be captured, or a flag that will only be possible to pick up by the opponents will spawn at their second point. Basically, it will be a 2 minute time limit A/D CTF, until either team captures the final point of the opponent. If the flag changes teams, the capture timer resets to two minutes. Should the flag lie on the ground, the timer stops.
You have to agree that the gameplay will be rather similar to the generic 5 CP one, with some major differences.
- Gameplay will be fast. 2 minute timers will force teams to push in order to retain momentum. [i]Will turtling be too powerful?[/i]
- Gameplay will be more focused around attack/defense - backcaps won't be available
- Gameplay might be more versatile, with an intel being the only way of capping diverse strats might be viable.
So... this being said, what are your intial thoughts on the concept? Numbers are of course subject for tweaking, but I really think this might be a way of making CTF work, and at the same time changing up the good ol' 5 CP concept, without completely leaving it.
I still want to see a stopwatch ctf map. That would be sick.
I still want to see a stopwatch ctf map. That would be sick.
KillingI still want to see a stopwatch ctf map. That would be sick.
If you're thinking of A/D CTF (Dustbowl but with flags) there was a major competition over at TF2maps.net with that theme, and a lot of decent maps were created that way. Thing is, it took turtling to an extreme, where the metagame didnt revolve around building 2 sentries, but rather buidling 8 sentries. It simply didn't work out, and there was a reason why Valve introduced Payload instead of A/D CTF from TFC.
[quote=Killing]I still want to see a stopwatch ctf map. That would be sick.[/quote]
If you're thinking of A/D CTF (Dustbowl but with flags) there was a major competition over at TF2maps.net with that theme, and a lot of decent maps were created that way. Thing is, it took turtling to an extreme, where the metagame didnt revolve around building 2 sentries, but rather buidling 8 sentries. It simply didn't work out, and there was a reason why Valve introduced Payload instead of A/D CTF from TFC.
chojjeKillingI still want to see a stopwatch ctf map. That would be sick.
If you're thinking of A/D CTF (Dustbowl but with flags) there was a major competition over at TF2maps.net with that theme, and a lot of decent maps were created that way. Thing is, it took turtling to an extreme, where the metagame didnt revolve around building 2 sentries, but rather buidling 8 sentries. It simply didn't work out, and there was a reason why Valve introduced Payload instead of A/D CTF from TFC.
He didn't and isn't going to read your posts. He just speaks his mind based on the topic title.
[quote=chojje][quote=Killing]I still want to see a stopwatch ctf map. That would be sick.[/quote]
If you're thinking of A/D CTF (Dustbowl but with flags) there was a major competition over at TF2maps.net with that theme, and a lot of decent maps were created that way. Thing is, it took turtling to an extreme, where the metagame didnt revolve around building 2 sentries, but rather buidling 8 sentries. It simply didn't work out, and there was a reason why Valve introduced Payload instead of A/D CTF from TFC.[/quote]
He didn't and isn't going to read your posts. He just speaks his mind based on the topic title.
a/d ctf is just wonky, awkward cp. they didnt replace a/d ctf with payload, they replaced it with a/d cp. i'd rather see something that focuses on both teams doing offense and defense. what about invade ctf? one flag in the middle where you deliver to the endzone i.e. ctf football. Getting the size might be a challenge.
a/d ctf is just wonky, awkward cp. they didnt replace a/d ctf with payload, they replaced it with a/d cp. i'd rather see something that focuses on both teams doing offense and defense. what about invade ctf? one flag in the middle where you deliver to the endzone i.e. ctf football. Getting the size might be a challenge.
I actually designed a map with the same concept a year or two ago because I felt like being different. I eventually just stopped working on it because there were way to many issues with the design, lighting and ui. I just didnt feel like committing any more time to it. It did play pretty well when people figured it out.
The dl is here if you want to see my crude implementation: http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=14747
I actually designed a map with the same concept a year or two ago because I felt like being different. I eventually just stopped working on it because there were way to many issues with the design, lighting and ui. I just didnt feel like committing any more time to it. It did play pretty well when people figured it out.
The dl is here if you want to see my crude implementation: http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=14747
TFC dustbowl was tooooo hectic. In a good way, of course.
TFC dustbowl was tooooo hectic. In a good way, of course.
take cp_process
remove most of the stuff between 2/4 and last
put the flag ON where the caps are* right now
take cp_process
remove most of the stuff between 2/4 and last
put the flag ON where the caps are* right now
ctf_process would probably be really cool
jagged map seems pretty cool, mega - the gamemode at least. ran through it and the aesthetics are kinda weird and there's quite a few hallways, but yeah i like the gamemode a lot.
ctf_process would probably be really cool
jagged map seems pretty cool, mega - the gamemode at least. ran through it and the aesthetics are kinda weird and there's quite a few hallways, but yeah i like the gamemode a lot.
depends how much work you're willing to put into it but if you're going to create a whole new game mode, i feel like you should create your own map instead of going off of a different creation. it will make the whole experience more unique and influenced less by other's opinions of process in general (sort of like what standin did).
i dislike the idea of a 2 minute timer because i think it is too harsh and limits the possible strategies that teams can employ. 5cp of course has 10 minute timers to prevent stalemates, not 2 minutes.
aside from that, it feels like you're forcing CTF into 6v6. Your idea really isn't much different than a 5cp VIP style, in which case you may as well make it just a 5cp map. The great part about 5cp is that any person can cap the point, and your game mode could potentially be difficult because there would be two objectives on the map instead of just one.
depends how much work you're willing to put into it but if you're going to create a whole new game mode, i feel like you should create your own map instead of going off of a different creation. it will make the whole experience more unique and influenced less by other's opinions of process in general (sort of like what standin did).
i dislike the idea of a 2 minute timer because i think it is too harsh and limits the possible strategies that teams can employ. 5cp of course has 10 minute timers to prevent stalemates, not 2 minutes.
aside from that, it feels like you're forcing CTF into 6v6. Your idea really isn't much different than a 5cp VIP style, in which case you may as well make it just a 5cp map. The great part about 5cp is that any person can cap the point, and your game mode could potentially be difficult because there would be two objectives on the map instead of just one.
side-note on a tangent to what #10 says:
If you want a gamemode like CTF, without "VIP" players that have to do the flag capping, you want some kind of dual king of the hill. Gang Garrison 2 tried it and it worked /okay/ but the maps are JUST as hard to design as CTF, to get a good outcome.
side-note on a tangent to what #10 says:
If you want a gamemode like CTF, without "VIP" players that have to do the flag capping, you want some kind of dual king of the hill. Gang Garrison 2 tried it and it worked /okay/ but the maps are JUST as hard to design as CTF, to get a good outcome.
The plan is to modify some well known map to see if the concept works, and then if it's successful create a whole new map of course. Perhaps 2 minutes is a bit too short, but consider that there's no real way to go aggressive on the team holding the flag if they decide to just go back and turtle; this means a much longer timer would make turtling way too powerful. Maybe 2 minutes is a bit too short, but more than 5 minutes and it's way too long in my opinion. Playtesting will have to tell.
And yes, I might as well make another 5 cp map, but I really feel like this concept has some promise, and I don't think anybody minds a bit of a change up to the standard 5 cp routine - as long as it's not too gimmicky!
It's not really a dual king of the hill, but a regular 5 cp map where you need a flag to cap, which will make it a bit more A/D-like. While there may be some issues that attacking is too easy, I don't feel like it should be much harder to design than a standard 5 cp map.
The plan is to modify some well known map to see if the concept works, and then if it's successful create a whole new map of course. Perhaps 2 minutes is a bit too short, but consider that there's no real way to go aggressive on the team holding the flag if they decide to just go back and turtle; this means a much longer timer would make turtling way too powerful. Maybe 2 minutes is a bit too short, but more than 5 minutes and it's way too long in my opinion. Playtesting will have to tell.
And yes, I might as well make another 5 cp map, but I really feel like this concept has some promise, and I don't think anybody minds a bit of a change up to the standard 5 cp routine - as long as it's not too gimmicky!
It's not really a dual king of the hill, but a regular 5 cp map where you need a flag to cap, which will make it a bit more A/D-like. While there may be some issues that attacking is too easy, I don't feel like it should be much harder to design than a standard 5 cp map.
For any kind of CTF to work in general:
- The map design should discourage camping with a sentry on defense.
- It needs to be fast paced by nature, not because a timer told you so.
- It shouldn't just be a DM fight followed up by the cap. If the entire strategy is just "Soldiers kill soldiers, one scout kills the demo, the other scout caps" it would get very boring. Every class should be capable of/good at capping to diversify strategies (even med caps, if you could make it work, would be really cool to see (QF anyone?)).
- One player shouldn't be capable of carrying the team. One good scout with alright DM and solid movement capping just by running around everything would be boring.
For any kind of CTF to work in general:
- The map design should discourage camping with a sentry on defense.
- It needs to be fast paced by nature, not because a timer told you so.
- It shouldn't just be a DM fight followed up by the cap. If the entire strategy is just "Soldiers kill soldiers, one scout kills the demo, the other scout caps" it would get very boring. Every class should be capable of/good at capping to diversify strategies (even med caps, if you could make it work, would be really cool to see (QF anyone?)).
- One player shouldn't be capable of carrying the team. One good scout with alright DM and solid movement capping just by running around everything would be boring.
I see basic neutral ctf as a better implementation in terms of refreshing gameplay.
I see basic neutral ctf as a better implementation in terms of refreshing gameplay.
Some of you who know me well know I am an oldschool quakeworld Team Fortress player. Back in the day all competitive play was CTF (with a couple funky wired maps like rock, crown, and canalzone thrown in as well). Everything was 8v8 and matches had a 30 minute time limit, and some leagues had a 100 point rule where if a player hit 100 points his team won.
CTF was so much fun back then and I have always been a little bummed that it doesn't play well in TF2. It COULD work, but it would be tricky. Here are a few reasons why it was successful back in QWTF:
1.) instant respawns. There was no respawn timer back then.
2.) no ubers. Medics had to melee their teammates to heal them and there was no such thing as an uber.
3.) grenades! Concs, napalm, spy gas, mirvs, emp... There was a huge variety of ways to play with all the various types of nades.
4.) 8v8. You had enough people to attack and defend at the same time.
We could disable the respawn timer for comp CTF to speed up the pace, but that's really the only change. There is nothing we can do to remove/disable ubers (and we really don't need to), and we aren't going to increase team sizes for CTF games and force teams to pick up more players. I think we should do some pugs on CTF maps with instant respawn and see how people like it.
Some of you who know me well know I am an oldschool quakeworld Team Fortress player. Back in the day all competitive play was CTF (with a couple funky wired maps like rock, crown, and canalzone thrown in as well). Everything was 8v8 and matches had a 30 minute time limit, and some leagues had a 100 point rule where if a player hit 100 points his team won.
CTF was so much fun back then and I have always been a little bummed that it doesn't play well in TF2. It COULD work, but it would be tricky. Here are a few reasons why it was successful back in QWTF:
1.) instant respawns. There was no respawn timer back then.
2.) no ubers. Medics had to melee their teammates to heal them and there was no such thing as an uber.
3.) grenades! Concs, napalm, spy gas, mirvs, emp... There was a huge variety of ways to play with all the various types of nades.
4.) 8v8. You had enough people to attack and defend at the same time.
We could disable the respawn timer for comp CTF to speed up the pace, but that's really the only change. There is nothing we can do to remove/disable ubers (and we really don't need to), and we aren't going to increase team sizes for CTF games and force teams to pick up more players. I think we should do some pugs on CTF maps with instant respawn and see how people like it.
I only see a few issues with this.
The 5CP maps are to big for CTF. If you have the size of 3 CP maps with CTF, it might work out.
If you capture the flag and take it to your base, all you do is control the middle area. If you have the take the flag from the enemy base and bring it to middle, just need to spawn camp.
CTF is a touchy subject due to the camping of the flags. If you can really prevent that as much as possible, then you have a good, if not great, game mode.
I only see a few issues with this.
The 5CP maps are to big for CTF. If you have the size of 3 CP maps with CTF, it might work out.
If you capture the flag and take it to your base, all you do is control the middle area. If you have the take the flag from the enemy base and bring it to middle, just need to spawn camp.
CTF is a touchy subject due to the camping of the flags. If you can really prevent that as much as possible, then you have a good, if not great, game mode.
This is reminding me of ctf_haarp, it makes ctf a much more dynamic and fun game mode, as there was only one flag, and one team had to capture two different points. Like gravelpit, since one team is defense other is offense, except the flag could completely reset to the back of the map again, not to mention it's always being constantly defended in a different location. I played it on my pub server before, never bothered trying it out in 6v6 however.
This is reminding me of ctf_haarp, it makes ctf a much more dynamic and fun game mode, as there was only one flag, and one team had to capture two different points. Like gravelpit, since one team is defense other is offense, except the flag could completely reset to the back of the map again, not to mention it's always being constantly defended in a different location. I played it on my pub server before, never bothered trying it out in 6v6 however.
I dunno, I feel like CTF can't really work in TF2 too well because the fundamental design of the game mode itself can't play to the strengths and weaknesses of TF2 as a game.
Like in games like Quake, everything was faster and everyone had equal abilities/stats/weapons so it could be a lot more about individual DM. In Tribes, maps were huge and movement techniques are a large part of flag capping.
TF2 on the other hand is more about tactics and taking advantages and positioning, which is a bit slower. It ends up being more of a mobile A/D kind of thing, which is tedious and boring in my opinion.
I guess I kind of see where you're going with this idea, but there needs to be a way to keep it fresh and non-stagnant.
I dunno, I feel like CTF can't really work in TF2 too well because the fundamental design of the game mode itself can't play to the strengths and weaknesses of TF2 as a game.
Like in games like Quake, everything was faster and everyone had equal abilities/stats/weapons so it could be a lot more about individual DM. In Tribes, maps were huge and movement techniques are a large part of flag capping.
TF2 on the other hand is more about tactics and taking advantages and positioning, which is a bit slower. It ends up being more of a mobile A/D kind of thing, which is tedious and boring in my opinion.
I guess I kind of see where you're going with this idea, but there needs to be a way to keep it fresh and non-stagnant.
as TLR mentioned in one of these threads before, there's no movement gimmick in this game to make CTF interesting. In Quake, you had strafejumping. In TFC, you had conc jumping (sick conc jumps at that). Above all of this, ubers, sentries, sticky traps, and heavies, it makes CTF pretty boring and annoying honestly.
We've tried CTF in multiple seasons, and I don't think too many people had a good time.
as TLR mentioned in one of these threads before, there's no movement gimmick in this game to make CTF interesting. In Quake, you had strafejumping. In TFC, you had conc jumping (sick conc jumps at that). Above all of this, ubers, sentries, sticky traps, and heavies, it makes CTF pretty boring and annoying honestly.
We've tried CTF in multiple seasons, and I don't think too many people had a good time.
Turbine was pretty cool in a 6s pug when we banned engie
Turbine was pretty cool in a 6s pug when we banned engie
From what I hear this sounds like it would play just like 5CP but be way harder since only 1 person can do the capping at a time (and if that person dies, someone else has to go get the flag, and then run to point).
I honestly think that the best thing to do is to just make the barebones map and play it regardless of the competitive community's interest. We've been interested in a lot of things before that haven't panned out.
From what I hear this sounds like it would play just like 5CP but be way harder since only 1 person can do the capping at a time (and if that person dies, someone else has to go get the flag, and then run to point).
I honestly think that the best thing to do is to just make the barebones map and play it regardless of the competitive community's interest. We've been interested in a lot of things before that haven't panned out.
Also, spy made CTF incredibly annoying. Did you bring the enemy flag out of their base a decent amount? No problem bro, just go spy and touch it the flag to reset the return timer. Do that about five times and eventually your team will take it home.
To be fair, I believe spies couldn't pick up the flag while cloaked (I believe it was possible at one point but it got patched). Still, pretty much the only point of spy in CTF is to reset the return timer. Regardless, I think every single class except scout and soldier make CTF annoying.
Also, spy made CTF incredibly annoying. Did you bring the enemy flag out of their base a decent amount? No problem bro, just go spy and touch it the flag to reset the return timer. Do that about five times and eventually your team will take it home.
To be fair, I believe spies couldn't pick up the flag while cloaked (I believe it was possible at one point but it got patched). Still, pretty much the only point of spy in CTF is to reset the return timer. Regardless, I think every single class except scout and soldier make CTF annoying.
God damnit panzer.
Look what you've done.
God damnit panzer.
Look what you've done.
http://i.imgur.com/SnmiZGm.png
(red spawn is in the direction behind the camera)
should i keep working on it
[img]http://i.imgur.com/SnmiZGm.png[/img]
(red spawn is in the direction behind the camera)
should i keep working on it
I think this would be pretty fun to watch and interesting to play
I think this would be pretty fun to watch and interesting to play