not a guy with best knowledge of the game, imo I don't see anything wrong with them, but some changing would be good.

Ye I think Heavy and Spy are fine, Pyro and Sniper are little problematic, but they've been so everywhere since their existence.
However I've always wanted Valve to focus more on Gunslinger, and turn Engie more into support rather than defender, since Heavy already exist.

unban dragon's fury and jetpack and pyro might be a pretty solid generalist

sniper is a generalist if you hit everything

fix seeing disguised spies' health bars

i really don't want mini-sentries to be ubiquitous in 6s, they're fine right now as a last-ditch defense

idc about them being viable to 6s but they should have transferable skills in some way or form, doesnt have to be aiming but ofc thats the obvious one. they can do the same shit they do now as roles in the game, idc, but at least transfer to other classes or even other games.

theres too many players in this game with 1-4k hours who have the skill and understanding of a player who has played for 100. ppl who have like 500 on classes like engi are basically just wasting their time and making no progression what so ever. i think its the main issue why theres so many pubbers and not that many people who follow comp in some way, not because awareness or rigid class things or anythimg like that. they say its how 'stale' it is, but really couldnt play even if they wanted to cause they rly never learned the basics of the game, then use that as an excuse or pretend the white-list is as restrictive as it was, which is why there wasnt any noticable increase of players once it was reduced to how ever many unlocks there are.
its the same shit for medic, pyro; heavy and spy (now theres none of them are gonna use the amby), which is the majority of the classes in the game.

if we didnt have those classes, perception in the wider community of Gamers would be the opposite of what it was now, probably like overwatch but not easy and free money and shit, which would lead to more players which would lead to more money in the game, etc.

DF needs smaller hitbox before we allow it IMO

I rather want some nerfs instead of ban, since Sniper has always brought intension and great plays to the game.

Engineer should not be full time viable, I agree, and I don't think minis are as annoying as people say.

I think Engie's default arsenal minus wrench (shotgun and pistol aim) and Pyro's DF (projectile aim) could work in transferring skill, tho they both need some reworking, especially DF.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/8a4a99d3bd67ba8d9a025c36edf4a624/tenor.gif?itemid=6220235

i dont think engis really use those things though not even the gunslinger ones. comp ones do, but the pub ones just sit behind and let the game play for them, which is why when u go to fight one they will consistently miss all 6 shots cause they rarely use it despite the slow move speed

the DF isn't even that much harder to aim than the regular, you can still miss and hit, you've just gotta be consciously shooting someone and twice. it still has an extremely low skill ceiling that wont transfer to anything other than being aware youre shooting a target i guess

From my experience minis never were that good to do so.
Tho you brought good point how different current pub game is from comp, and how it has divided playerbases. Valve should do something to minimize these differences.

what? it's significantly harder. you're punished for missing shots, punished for airblasting, and punished for not holding w (since the afterburn dissipates quickly and you have to hit a 25 damage shot to reignite them, also slow switch speed and shit airblast makes it harder to switch to secondary). it's the same skill as hitting any fast moving projectile - flares, pipes, huntsman, crossbow etc, but it has the additional element of lining up penetrations

small enough that it becomes a non-factor and nobody will use it?

Fast firerate makes up missing shots, and since you can use it in melee/close range, missing shots won't be an issue.

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Hardly an issue related to hitboxes which will register if just one flame particle hits.

This also's not an issue related to it. Secondary rarely comes to play in DF ambushes.

Expect that you cannot spam it in melee/close range with no self damage, and with faster firerate.

I never said so.

https://i.imgur.com/pT4jPlB.jpg

it had a higher skill ceiling when i was playing pyro and ppl did the degresser axtinguisher thing than this. u just sort of kind of aim it where they are with huge margin for error, if they in range, it hits, and then u just do the same shit again. why people think this is harder than what we had before i dont get it. u can 2 shot a scout for the same aim as hitting two -3s. pic shown isnt even a -3

they lowered pyros skill ceiling in recent update including the pyro one, lowered spy's with the amby, lowered engi with the rescue ranger. i guess increased heavy cause its harder to do the shit he was doing before, but making it harder doesnt really mean higher skill ceiling anyway. the more the update the worse the game gets

you literally have a third of the fire rate if you miss

what are you talking about? i'm referring to the 1.5 seconds of complete uselessness if you press m2

it rarely comes into play because the df has anti-synergy with secondary weapons

you can't spam DF or you have slow fire rate, you have to hit every shot. it shoots much slower than pipes if you miss

who cares if the particle hitbox matches the animation? old flame animations were infinitely worse at denoting where the actual hitbox was. the question is if the fat hitbox makes it broken, and it isn't. hitting projectiles is difficult, doubly so if you're punished for missing. there's a reason the direct hit, demoknight, and huntsman are never seen - the projectiles are not consistent enough to bother with.

Which won't matter because hitting them is easy in melee range

Funhaver posted an image which explained my point well.

DF's damage output is enough to make secondaries irrelevant.

The original point was that hitboxes /flame particles makes it easy to aim, and you can spam it with only basic knowledge of aiming.

cringy as fuck

I don't agree about rescue ranger nerf decreasing engineer's skill ceiling, whenever I saw an engineer using that gun he was just hiding in a corner humping his dispenser while spamming m1 on his sentry, that's not how you increase a skill ceiling. They had a good idea going with DF, and it does require a bit more skill than stock (which you can just wave around wildly and do a ton of damage because lolskill), but it needs a few minor tweaks. I have no idea why they thought a 40 ammo count on a weapon that fires so fast would be a good idea, and I'm sure they must have been fucking high when they decided the hitbox needed to be that large. This update wasn't all that bad, the TF2 team had some good ideas, the implementation definitely needs some work. Ideally I'd like to see all flamethrowers use a system similar to DF once that gets properly skill indexed by reducing ammo count to 10 and massively decreasing the hitbox, and reworking jetpack into a proper flanking weapon that doesn't announce to the entire server when you're flying above their head.

how do you get into melee range against soldiers, scouts, and medics? pyro is slower. you are going to be hitting them with the tip unless they walk into you or you're hiding in a corner

your point is irrelevant to the fact that i am talking about the delay between airblasting and having a primary weapon, which has nothing to do with the size of the projectile, so i don't understand what you're trying to say

also i edited my post to address funhaver

not if you use airblast or they back out of range

see response to funhaver.

idc about the animation i care about where the crosshair is placed which is light years away. do u think this is harder than lighting someone on fire with old flames and then hitting a flare straight after? there's no way, but this dragons fury shit is even better than that, within range ofc, kills faster, u dont gotta switch, now ur secondary can be whatever and its also easier.

considering you can't airblast to hit a 100% consistent flare, and considering that if you miss, you are unable to do anything for longer than if you miss the airblast-->flare with degreaser, and considering that you have no option to hurt people while still being able to airblast immediately after? yes, it is harder.

of course it's better at killing than degreaser pyro, because degreaser pyro is fucking garbage at killing people. it's obviously not a straight upgrade because it's extremely terrible at stalling ubers and reflecting, and therefore, really shit if you can't get up close. this is why secondary choice matters - it determines how you compensate for being too slow to catch up to people and worthless outside of flame range.

Not anymore, flame particles got reworked. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIIgr_qt8mw

also it is just as difficult to hit 1 flame particle before as it was now

Ambushing is usually the moment where the DF annihilates players. This would not be an issue if aiming with it was so easy. It does enough damage to kill even Heavy with few shots, so ambushing Pyro can kill even Soldier without him being able to react

Airblasting penalty or secondary delay won't come to play because of reasons I just showed, and really are not a proper drawback imo

DF projectile is different from old flames, so I don't think we can compare them (even new flames are broken since you don't need to track properly in order to do good damage)

so are u agreeing or disagreeing? cause u said u disagree but then said exactly wat i was thinking, that the rescue ranger doesnt increase the skill ceiling and lowers it. u didnt even mention how u can just place ur gun somewhere and pick it up from range and it be perfectly safe, or u can go get ammo willy nilly and just repair from range

im talking about degresser pyro i.e 2013 pyro and comparing it to 2017 which in this example is just soley the dragons fury alone. 2017 pyro doesnt need any secondaries. it can deal with pyros just fine, so doesnt need a shotgun and does fast enough damage to not need the flare. shotguns also gonna do dickcheese at long range, flare has a massive cool down. neither are even worth taking out. its like saying as scout you use the pistol until ur close enough for the scattergun to not do 3 damage, but even that is more realistic cause the switch from pistol to scatter is much faster than flare to df.

now the degresser pyro is garbage compared to this shit, but the question is which deserves to be better than the other? even when u could airblast for 100 percent consistent flare, i still think pyro in 2013 had a higher skill ceiling. if u placed the crosshair exactly where it is in that pic would the flare gun hit? fuck no. only other wep that requires this little aim is the medi gun, other than the other flame throwers.

the 1 flame particle thing also isnt relevant cause in 2013 it wasnt the damage dealer, the 90 damage flare was. the flame thrower was just there to do -6 then u switch. the aiming of it is irrelevant cause it wasnt used to do damage, just a reliable way to set ppl on fire so u can do damage after.

in the time the DF kills a scout the old flames itself (no flare) would do idk 30-60 damage? when carpet makes the new vid using it and doing similar shit that darknecrid did in that vid we can have a better real life example i guess. if b4nny had vods up of when he first used it, where like 6 ppl chase him hes low hp and he kills them all, taking no damage and is kind of surprised id clip that and show u

I just want second scoping on sniper to somehow be removed

Tomislav Heavy works exactly the same way, is easy to aim, and is a complete non-issue.

What you fail to take into account by saying "Pyro kills people too fast by ambushing" is that ambushing is not reliable. It relies on people not checking corners. Pyro has no escape options and DF pyro has shit airblast. If you check the corner, they will die. It's just like saying "Spy is overpowered because backstabbing kills people instantly and takes no skill." DF Pyro getting into a position where they can kill people is easily countered by playing smart, and if they are playing dumb, you can probably make a similar play on Soldier, but you aren't stuck on a class that is only capable of ambushing if you decide to stop hiding or kill them all, and you can get into hiding positions faster and easier.

sorry, can you rephrase your argument? i don't understand why you think DF pyros never need to airblast or use their secondaries.

Are you saying you never need to use your secondary in a CQC fight because they will never leave flamethrower range and you never need to airblast?

what are you responding to I have no idea

I wonder how many more nerfs will the engineer and spy get before tf2 team realises how shit they are. Spy fighting ability slowly but steadily approaches that of a medic lol.

Tomislav's a hitscan which means he cannot focus multiple targets + heavy has the wort movement in game.

I should have mentioned flanking as well, but my point still stands. Team cannot take flanks into account 100%, and pyro can also go for suicide bombs. It's not Pyro's ability to flank why DF is the problem, it's that it's too easy to aim because of its hitboxes so it's "reward for skill" really does not come to play then.

Spy needs much more thought out positioning for getting a good one kill, while Pyeo can just do huge amount of damage with just basic knowledge of aiming.

The fact that you can deal huge amount of damage with basic aiming is the reason why airblast and secondaries are irrevelant, especially in ambush scenarios.

The real point was that the hitboxes are too big, and you don't need to aim directly to so damage with it. I'm not really arguing that Pyro is OP or unstoppable, I think he's stilö a broken class, ans that DF needa little tweaking in order to be a proper skill weapon imo

there are more ranges than the range where shotgun does 90 and the range where shotgun does 3. jetpack is good. scorch shot

DF Pyro is aiming extremely large projectiles. Airblast into secondaryis not aiming because it's 100% consistent. I agree that flamethrower tracking has a higher skill ceiling, but flamethrower wasn't the primary weapon, shotgun was.

The question about "what deserves to be better" is not something I care about. I only care about if the DF should be unbanned. Whether or not old Degreaser/Shotgun was harder or not is irrelevant to that.

old pyro was fucking terrible. if DF is going to be viable in 6s with a gimped airblast and 100% speed and shit range it needs to be better than scouts or soldiers up close, or else why the fuck would you use it

walking into dragon's fury while clumped is the same thing as walking backwards into a spy or standing at long range vs a sniper. if you play at the optimal range of a slow, inflexible class, you are making a mistake and deserve to be punished.

if they swap a soldier, you win the spam fight. if they swap a scout, you pressure flank and 2v1 flankers or walk in for free. or you just stay out of range and poke with hitscan and stickies until they die.

Df requires far less accuracy than any other projectile in the game considering its speed and hitbox. No matter what your experience is if you simply understand the basic concept of projectiles you will hit your shots 90% of the time and that is not ok when it can 2shot light classes.