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#41 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion
Puoskarihttps://youtu.be/QkZLJeQ1Nhc?t=3m39s

Those bhops are due to a mod, right? Description mentions TF2 Turbo

gemmbuffing bhops doesnt necessarily mean removing a speedcap for bhops. you can have it like in csgo where it's pretty difficult (if not impossible, not sure) to do it 100% consistently and it gives you a slight speed boost. you could also have it where it's just a hold spacebar thing with a speedcap just above base movement speed, and that might mean new players learn to airstrafe quicker. the maps aren't designed for it though (unlike quake's) and it seems worse than just a flat speed buff to all classes

What aspects of TF2's map design strike you as problematic combined with improved bhops?

posted about 6 years ago
#36 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion
vladgame breaking in a game where part of the balance is different classes having different movement speed

Given that various classes already have different max speeds while bhopping, this argument is worded poorly

posted about 6 years ago
#34 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion
TobI remember seeing a video of a 6v6 mix with bhop and it's soldiers jumping around at max speed, bombing into everything while all other classes feel irrelevant.
Sadly I couldn't find it again. Has been a while since I've seen it but maybe others will remember. The game was on badlands.

If you'd want bunnyhopping in TF2 you'd have to make giant maps to compensate. Otherwise you just get bombed when walking through choke by 2 constantly suiciding max speed soldiers. And at that point just make it an entirely new game or independent mod so you can balance the classes appropriately

But that's judging from a very old video I once saw and what I think would have to be done. Get an inhouse pug going with bunnyhopping and see how it works out if you're that eager to try

I'd love to see that video if you could dig it up. I'll be searching for it too. I'd also be interested to know how they implemented their bhops.

eddie_calderonthis game already allows bhopping however its incredibly unlikely/inconsistent to chain more than 1 or 2 bhops unless you are going down a ramp. in particular, medic has a lot of interesting bhops he can perform the only way to buff bhopping is to make it easier to do as its about as annoying to do as l4d/l4d2 bhops. buffing bhopping would be not only inconsistent in knowing when specific classes arrive at what times, but also aiming projectiles at grounded players

When you say "make it easier", what are you getting at? More lenient jump timing? Faster acceleration from airstrafing?

posted about 6 years ago
#33 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion
tsarYou asked if something would be good, and when everyone said it would be a bad idea, you go and defend it.

If you feel strongly about something, start off saying that. Don't argue under the veneer of "just having a discussion." Say what you actually intend to say in the first comment rather than arguing once people say no.

What are you talking about? I just want an in depth discussion. I have to play devil's advocate to get that, or people would just say "no" like the first post ITT and I'd learn nothing. Why is criticizing someone's argument problematic?

I don't work for Valve, it's not like I have some agenda for the game. I just want an interesting discussion on a discussion board. Sue me.

posted about 6 years ago
#22 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion
sagebhop is fun but i dont want to see a heavy flying through the map mowing everyone down

You can't jump while revved up dude. Do you know how bhops work lol

Also comanglia scout's double jump would make him better at bhopping, it allows more air time to strafe

posted about 6 years ago
#19 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion

The way bhops work currently would stack multiplicatively with current class max movespeed, not additively. Yes, roughly *1.2 of your current class' movespeed is currently possible with TAS level strafing and perfect jump timing. Making 1.2x speed actually humanly achievable would likely require a TAS max of 35ish%

posted about 6 years ago
#16 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion
ComangliaBooleanComangliawell a decent buff would just have higher tick servers. Bhopping in CSGO is way easier and more beneficial at 128 tick lol.

Bhopping really shouldn't be that important in tf2 though, bhopping can get pretty crazy and start to really remove the point of having slow and fast classes. At most I can see is giving a single specific class bhops, such as medic or spy even still have it be really hard to do and not make it so a medic flies across the map.
Perhaps I should clarify in the OP that I'm trying to imagine the effects of a buff to roughly +50% extra speed in TAS. Realistically this would allow humans to gain +40% of their class' current max movespeed. Slow classes while bhopping would be like a light class, light classes bhopping would be like a scout, etc.

Slow classes would still be notably slower than fast classes while bhopping, and while DMing someone with a hitscan weapon, trying to start a bhop is basically suicide.

I can definitely see why being able to triple your horizontal speed after 7 jumps would be stupid to play against. When I say "buff" I don't mean "TF2 gets quake movement physics"
Now while I personally like having skill based movement, +40% would definitely be way to much, Heavy would be close to scout speed at that point. Maybe a +10% would be ok at most, but even then I think it really should be tied to only specific classes and or items that have a major trade off. Example 1. Buff to Overdose that allows medics to bhop for an additional 10% movement speed. Example 2. Spies can bhop for an additional 10% movement speed while cloaked (cloak and dagger would need a bit of rework otherwise it would drain to fast).
Otherwise bhops would become way to important in general gameplay and honestly I don't think the majority of players would like it, and it would really upset a lot of class balances. Not to mention bhop on scout would be nigh impossible due to the double jump.

You know that the game already allows a TAS max of +20% extra speed via bhops and nobody uses them because they're too hard to gain any speed with, right? Also, a heavy with +40% speed is 108% of light class movespeed aka same as spy/med speed. Redo your math

posted about 6 years ago
#14 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion
Comangliawell a decent buff would just have higher tick servers. Bhopping in CSGO is way easier and more beneficial at 128 tick lol.

Bhopping really shouldn't be that important in tf2 though, bhopping can get pretty crazy and start to really remove the point of having slow and fast classes. At most I can see is giving a single specific class bhops, such as medic or spy even still have it be really hard to do and not make it so a medic flies across the map.

Perhaps I should clarify in the OP that I'm trying to imagine the effects of a buff to roughly +50% extra speed in TAS. Realistically this would allow humans to gain +40% of their class' current max movespeed. Slow classes while bhopping would be like a light class, light classes bhopping would be like a scout, etc.

Slow classes would still be notably slower than fast classes while bhopping, and while DMing someone with a hitscan weapon, trying to start a bhop is basically suicide.

I can definitely see why being able to triple your horizontal speed after 7 jumps would be stupid to play against. When I say "buff" I don't mean "TF2 gets quake movement physics"

posted about 6 years ago
#10 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion
HOITF2 has extremely skill based movement and while adding more options is not necessarily a bad idea it certainly isn't necessary. Adding ways to increase your starting speed could break some jump or even surf maps that were designed up to 10 years ago for the normal movement speeds, and bhopping would also disrupt class balancing since it would allow heavy mains to race around the map, with relative ease. Combined with the height variety of TF2 maps, I think adding bhopping could be harmful to the game by reducing focus on positioning and making running away in fights more common, which in projectile vs projectile is already strong due to the difference in projectile travel times between the attacker and defender

Ruining jump maps is a good point I suppose, but if you come in knowing it's made for blast jump practice and cheese it with bhops, you could've just cheesed it faster with noclip

Could you elaborate a little further on the relation between height, projectile travel time, and retreating? I don't think I'm picking up what you're putting down

Also, I'm not saying +100% speed bhops CS:S style would be a good idea lol I'm imagining the effects of a more modest buff to a TAS max of +50%ish with pixel perfect strafing and frame perfect jumps

posted about 6 years ago
#9 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion
mastercomsBooleanI agree that the class' differing relative movespeeds are vital to maintaining the game's balance.

What I don't see eye to eye with you on is the comparison to one-class unlocks. Bhops are all class, and could be implemented to not affect classes' max speed relative to each other much. If just flat buffed from their current state, they would inherently benefit fast movespeed classes more than slow classes, who already tend to have blast jumps to gain speedWell that's exactly what my point is. Because bunnyhopping is all class and don't have any special mechanics like unlocks that can be tuned for specific sacrifices, you can't expect them to fit in the game. The things we have in the game right now have much better tradeoffs, are much more class specific and can thus be tuned for each class' design goals and are much more interesting.

All we have in the game currently are various strengths of blast jump. Rockets, stickies, detonator, wrangler, etc. The only tradeoff the game currently offers is health for mobility.

Bhops offer a tradeoff of a predictable trajectory, an inability to properly aim and deal damage without losing speed immediately, and near-uselessness while moving uphill. Could these tradeoffs not be made to find a home in TF2? Would such rebalancing change TF2 too much to even think of it as the same game?

Also shout outs to whoever downvoted me for wanting a response with more effort than "no". That'll show me for expecting an earnest discussion on the internet. Thank you, mastercoms, for being reasonable and willing to discuss

posted about 6 years ago
#6 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion
mastercomsLots of classes are balanced around their move speed cap, forcing them to make certain sacrifices to go faster than their walk speed, due to movement being so valuable. You can see this value in unlocks and mechanics that grant move speed: Heavy quickly has his health pool drained just to move slightly faster, Soldier is marked for death (or has to sacrifice HP and crit heals to blast jump), and Demoman has to remove his powerful stickybomb launcher for a quick charge every so often (or again, blast jump and lose health and crit heals).

Bunnyhopping doesn't have those risks. It adds a lot of extra move speed to classes who were balanced around some other move speed or movement mechanic. I don't think it has a place in TF2.

I agree that the class' differing relative movespeeds are vital to maintaining the game's balance.

What I don't see eye to eye with you on is the comparison to one-class unlocks. Bhops are all class, and could be implemented to not affect classes' max speed relative to each other much. If just flat buffed from their current state, they would inherently benefit fast movespeed classes more than slow classes, who already tend to have blast jumps to gain speed

posted about 6 years ago
#3 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion
charleno

Care to elaborate on your opinion? "no" isn't a terribly interesting response to discuss

posted about 6 years ago
#1 Would buffing bhops benefit TF2? in TF2 General Discussion

There are many powerful methods of controlling an enemy's movement in this game. Sentries, airblast, explosive splash, and even regular low-damage hitscan all strongly affect an opponent's aerial momentum. Some methods are difficult to pull off, i.e. airshots, but others are free, i.e. airblast and sentries.

Bhopping isn't as risky as blast jumping from a health pool standpoint, but it is still quite committal to keep your speed, as you have to stop strafing to aim and vice versa. Also, because bhops take a while to build up speed, you can't gain it all back in a single quick burst that would allow unreasonable escapes on low HP without cost.

Bhopping seemed to draw ire in Counter Strike, but in a game with accepted methods of skill based movement that allow much faster travel than bhops, would they be problematic or beneficial?

posted about 6 years ago
#37 Please Ban The Crossbow in TF2 General Discussion
EasyEcan we just get rid of the reverse fall off damage?
that's literally the most retarded attribute you could add to a projectile based weapon.

Just because you said reverse falloff is the worst projectile attribute possible, Valve is going to buff pyro with homing reflects dodgeball style

posted about 6 years ago
#29 Please Ban The Crossbow in TF2 General Discussion
alec_BooleanVeccWhen a roamer sacked in and did damage you could make a play off of damage alone, making the game more fast paced

now when you sack in as roamer and do damage it doesnt matter because the people you damaged will be bow'd
But rockets deal splash damage and arrows don't deal splash healing...
ur not always gonna deal substantial damage to multiple people. a lot of the time pushing off of dmg could be like the demo was hit 200 or something

Really? You used to be able to push off one lit player? Weird. I can see how the crossbow would stuff that I suppose

posted about 6 years ago
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