Hey now! You can't discriminate against people with no arms!

Just going to bring this back to the front pages. I've updated a bit of info as well.

Hopefully you guys made reference to some of the competitive training material and suggested that new folks familiarize themselves with the flow, etc, of competitive before playing. It'd suck to have more folks asking what class is best...

I don't doubt that some people feel this way, but I don't think that's a real/difficult barrier for new players. Not using a weapon is pretty simple to adjust to.

If you're looking at getting new players into competitive I think you have to turn your attention elsewhere. The whole mechanic of working with a team is completely foreign to anyone who hasn't played competitive (proper pushing, holding, etc, you rarely see that in pubs - hell, you rarely see anyone uber decently in pubs).

Triple dots are the most insulting of the dots. It's because they team up on people.

I'm a little confused about something and I hope someone could be so kind as to clarify this for me (I'm very new to competitive-ish playing).

Why does Valve care about community imposed white lists? If they wanted a strong competitive scene by their rules, wouldn't they just arrange for tournaments and put up the prize money themselves? I'm sure they have the capacity to set up a system with their servers, etc, to run tournaments now and again...

I've also heard a few people saying that we should continue talking to Valve the same way we are - how does this work? Is there some sort of official/semi-official feedback system? Is this a reference to the generic feedback options available to every player?

Thanks!

I think the fact that you can see a few people here and in other posts saying that Newbie Mixes were the way they came into the competitive scene shows it can, and does work.

This is also a bump because I view this as an incredibly valuable tool in getting new players comfortable enough to play "in the big leagues"

I have about 500 hours. At 300 hours I started getting bored in pubs and started to watch videos and improving specific aspects of my game (picking meds in pubs, mge, etc). Then I started to play NA newbie mixes. I've played a dozen or so pugs in faceit and a handful in mixchamp.

I support a minimum time in the 300-400 hour range. It's not about people be bad (I have a crappy record and I'm not great), it's about knowing how to play the game and not making it less fun for everyone else. It's not fun to get rolled because a player asks "what class is good?" at the beginning of the game, then goes engineer at last the whole time.

A 500 hour limit is a bit high, but not totally unreasonable. My concern there would be losing people who have 300 or 400 hours because they're bored in pubs and can't get a consistent challenge elsewhere.

Only a sith deals in absolutes... Heh

But honestly, Slin brought this up in the context of attracting players, but it seems like that's tangential to weapon balance. Pardon my confusion.

This conversation is getting confusing..

Is this about something players can do or something only Valve can do?

Is it about shrinking blacklists or making all weapons available (I don't think anyone's said the latter?).

It seems to me like people are more focused on shooting eachother down instead of actually talking about what Mr. Slin has brought up. Maybe there needs to be a more focused conversation by breaking it into parts (eg. (1) What do we want to accomplish? (2) Who do we want to accomplish this - players or Valve, etc)...

As someone who wants to get onto a team and play competitively - hands down NA Newbie Mixes have been the single best resource. I can't thank you and the coaches enough for doing this.

I've read the other resources, watched the videos, etc. Nothing beats a coach giving you advice during/after each round.

Unfortunately I don't have comp experience, but if there's anything re organization/etc I can help with, please let me know.

GentlemanJon nailed it - "Why?" What would this accomplish and how? Is this meant to bring more people into competitive play? If so, is that through making the knowledge gap between regular play and comp smaller or because it will make watching/playing competitively more interesting (or some combination)?

Based on what the goal is, the strategies should be well thought out and not just by top invite folks if your goal is to do something that attracts people to competitive (more "regular" folks should be included).

I'm relatively new to the game (~500 hours) and I've been interested in playing competitively since about 300 hours in (at which point I started exploring various options for doing so - watching streams, videos, demo reviews, reading websites, focusing on specific aspects of my game, etc).

A few points from my experience:

1. Whitelist/blacklist hasn't had any impact on my ability to play PUGs or understand how they're played. If anything it's made it easier (fewer options means less to know).
   
2. Video and other resources don't make it a lot easier to into competitive play. They definitely teach the basics, but nothing compares to real-time feedback on play.
   
3. NA newbie mixes have been the best thing at preparing for competitive, it's awful to hear that they're struggling.
   
4. Playing PUGs has been more fun than I thought it'd be - I'm not great at this game, but I have had very few interactions with people that weren't positive. The only trouble is the lack of constructive advice (but that's hard to give in a PUG).

Sorry (I'm Canadian and so I'll say this often), but I don't think it's fair to go to a poll when you've asked what you characterize as a philosophical question as there's obviously no cut and dry answer. Everyone needs to be on the same page (what to accomplish and, at a high level, how) and I feel you're putting the chicken before the egg.

A couple random bits I wanted to toss in:
B4nny - If it's at all possible, please do a demo review now and again, even if it's of yourself. I've found them incredibly helpful in learning the ropes and are a step closer to real-time feedback than many other resources.

Slin - your Youtube medic videos have been helpful.

TL;DR:

Before going to a poll, I think it's best to figure out what you want to accomplish and how. After this, make sure the steps you'll take will accomplish your goals (ie. don't only go to captains of invite teams if you want to do something to attract regular folks to competitive - get other voices).

Personally, I've found getting into comp difficult. NA newbie mixes are the only real coaching system (and they're having trouble staying up) and this is the best way to teach people and get them started. The newbie teams would also be amazing to keep going.

Good call - I'll try that next time as it'll save the step of adding again.

I've found the same thing. I normally just add to an empty map, then wait a couple second and remove. Tends to work. If you remove straight away you become that immortal thing (in which case just add and remove until it works).

I've now had time to play a handful of games (thanks to the holidays) and generally I've had a great experience. A quick summary of my experience (note - I have under 500 hours in tf2):

* I've only been yelled at once (playing a class I don't normally)
* Most people have been focused and fun to play with
* In my experience the people with the most time/experience are by far the most polite and helpful (Paddie, Translucent Feces, and others stand out)

It would be great if there was a sub system and a minimum play time requirement (400 hours?), though.

My next step is to start asking teammates for some advice when we play, see how that goes over.

This is definitely helping to bridge the knowledge gap between casual and competitive; hopefully it'll lead to a team down the line.