I'm not arguing that average APM is higher than SC:BW, I'm arguing that at the top level, technical skill is comparable to SC:BW. To quote Prog "most people figured out we put about six or seven inputs per second, which is roughly about the same as professional starcraft."

I'm not incredibly familiar with Starcraft, but selecting a group of units isn't as precise as shield dropping.

That would be kinda a joke if they counted grab mashing as inputs, but since it's impossible to tell how well they're mashing without seeing their controllers, inputs like that aren't counted in these APM totals.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/d/dc/Control_stick_angle_overview_%28shield%29.png

I'm not talking about shield dropping, I'm talking about melee's tech in general. Every movement and action in Melee is important and done for a purpose at the highest level, and if you do it wrong, you lose a stock. Also, I'm not only talking about technical skill, my point is Melee combines technical requirements with fast paced decision making against one person.

I don't think you can objectively say one game is harder than another, but the reason I think melee is up there with those other games is that it combines all of those elements at the top level. According to this and this, Fox APM at the top level is anywhere from 250-300 APM. According to This, SC:BW APM is generally over 200 at top level, so it would seem that both games are tied in this regard, except for the fact that Melee uses analog input. Take for example shield dropping. Since you say you've been playing Melee for four years, I'd assume that you know what it is and that it is absolutely necessary for some characters' out of shield game. The picture below shows just how precise this input is, and many extremely important options rely on incredibly precice control and movement like this. And you have to do it at 200 APM.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/d/dc/Control_stick_angle_overview_%28shield%29.png

This is true, but the difference is where the 1 frame tech is used. For example in Street Fighter, many characters have bread and butter combos that rely on 1 frame links. This sounds insane, until you realise that 1 frame is always the same. There is no situation that a 1 frame link is any harder, or requires faster reaction time. In Melee, however, powershielding is always a reaction to your opponents action. If my opponent shoots his laser slightly later, or slightly closer, or slightly farther away, I have to change my shield timing to reflect that. This is why no top player can powershield 100% of the time.

This may be true, but there is no other game that combines speed on the level of Melee with the incredible decision making trees. Take DI for example. If I'm getting hit, I have a split second to make a decision. If I use combo DI on a kill move, I die. If I use survival DI on a combo tool, my opponent gets another, easier opportunity to hit me again, which can often lead to death.

I'll concede this point to you, although this isn't necessarily a good thing. Giving a player more time to make decisions lowers the skill ceiling. In one match of Melee, you have hundreds of decisions to make, all of which could lead to a death for either party as long as they aren't playing floaties. Melee gives enough decisions to allow the better players to get the upper hand consistently, and delivers them quick enough to ensure that it's impossible to play perfectly.

So that's why I think Melee is one of the hardest esports. Please comment why you disagree with my points instead of -fragging me this time.

pretty ok. could use lyrics.
https://open.spotify.com/track/7MeUFHaHTgcLqz56vSyvIh

osu is literally a single player game. I really like osu but it's not a multiplayer game even though you have the option.

i'll take one

Hardest game is Melee, although SC:BW is probably up there and Quake is incredibly hard too.

Hey, I'm in open currently, is it ok if I play newbie mixes on an offclass so I can get a feel for how the class works?

The Kid gave us a show. GG everybody

BRACKET RESET
http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash
IT'S TIME
http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash
MANGO VS ARMADA III
http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash
WILL THE KID STRIKE BACK?
http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash
OR WILL ARMADA SEAL THE DEAL

MANGO UP 1-0
http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash
NEEDS TO FINISH THE SET AND WIN ANOTHER

GET YOUR FRIENDS
http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash
GET YOUR ENEMIES
http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash
GET YOUR POPCORN
http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash
THE SET IS TIED 1-1; MANGO VS ARMADA
http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash
IT'S TIME.

plz kill hbox mango

USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA

good scout
good personality
good music
pick him up

I wanna follow but I feel like we're slowly killing this man.

make sure it's set to fullscreen instead of windowed fullscreen or something. idk for sure what your problem is you need to be more specific.

23.4 scout. Was somewhere between 30-40 but I changed it because rocket jumping. actually worked totally fine for me on scout.