Did you play it? If you can provide some further details it would be really helpful.

I'll probably reduce the size of the lobby pretty severely for the next version, as the distance difference between mid and 2, and 2 and mid, seems to be the major issue right now.

favourite.

The plan is to modify some well known map to see if the concept works, and then if it's successful create a whole new map of course. Perhaps 2 minutes is a bit too short, but consider that there's no real way to go aggressive on the team holding the flag if they decide to just go back and turtle; this means a much longer timer would make turtling way too powerful. Maybe 2 minutes is a bit too short, but more than 5 minutes and it's way too long in my opinion. Playtesting will have to tell.

And yes, I might as well make another 5 cp map, but I really feel like this concept has some promise, and I don't think anybody minds a bit of a change up to the standard 5 cp routine - as long as it's not too gimmicky!

It's not really a dual king of the hill, but a regular 5 cp map where you need a flag to cap, which will make it a bit more A/D-like. While there may be some issues that attacking is too easy, I don't feel like it should be much harder to design than a standard 5 cp map.

If you're thinking of A/D CTF (Dustbowl but with flags) there was a major competition over at TF2maps.net with that theme, and a lot of decent maps were created that way. Thing is, it took turtling to an extreme, where the metagame didnt revolve around building 2 sentries, but rather buidling 8 sentries. It simply didn't work out, and there was a reason why Valve introduced Payload instead of A/D CTF from TFC.

With the debate going high on what might make CTF viable in the competitive scene, with experimental maps being created and the general consensus every time being that CTF simply doesnt work in 6v6, I decided to create this thread. The staleness built into the gamemode, coupled with the big differences between the standard 5 CP maps and the average CTF map means it's nearly impossible to develop a "standard" CTF map that would work in 6v6 (turbine being a miraculous exception with its simplistic design). Personally I've been reflecting a lot over the issue, and finally I've created a concept that I want to share for some feedback.

The idea is basically taking the standard 5 CP map, and converting it to CTF. This means the gameplay won't be that different from the one we're used to, but still hopefully providing some fresh air into competitive maps.

Here's the basic idea: take a regular 5 CP map. Now, instead of fighting over the mid point at the start, there will be an intelligence unlocked some ten-fifteen seconds into the mid fight, at the mid point. The team that picks it up now "controls" the mid point, and have to carry the flag to the next point. To capture it they have to enter the capture zone while no enemies are blocking it. After a short delay, a new flag will spawn at the same capture point, and pushing will continue. In order to avoid camping with the flag, there will be a two minute timer ticking down, during which time the next point will have to be captured, or a flag that will only be possible to pick up by the opponents will spawn at their second point. Basically, it will be a 2 minute time limit A/D CTF, until either team captures the final point of the opponent. If the flag changes teams, the capture timer resets to two minutes. Should the flag lie on the ground, the timer stops.

You have to agree that the gameplay will be rather similar to the generic 5 CP one, with some major differences.

- Gameplay will be fast. 2 minute timers will force teams to push in order to retain momentum. Will turtling be too powerful?
- Gameplay will be more focused around attack/defense - backcaps won't be available
- Gameplay might be more versatile, with an intel being the only way of capping diverse strats might be viable.

So... this being said, what are your intial thoughts on the concept? Numbers are of course subject for tweaking, but I really think this might be a way of making CTF work, and at the same time changing up the good ol' 5 CP concept, without completely leaving it.

Released a18: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2447457/cp_quay_a18.bsp.bz2

Screens: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197998577229/screenshots/

In what way did you feel last was too hard to push in and out of? Having focused a lot on mid in the last few patches, I'm really puzzled to hear how the lobby area works.

Major changes in a18 include opening up the choke near the beach, and removing the crane holding up 2 altogether.

I'd definitely be interested in creating a 3 cp map if there's some support from the community - I just fear investing a lot of time into something that might get completely overlooked. Even getting a very standard 5 CP map playtested is arduous, why would people want to try out a 3 cp one?

What I’ve done right now is opening up the choke area entirely: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2447457/location.PNG I’m still at a loss for ideas when it comes to rebuilding mid. The main problem seems to be that the area is so small that medics are easy targets for everything once they reach mid. I’d like to create some more escape routes and make the area less open, but on the other hand that would make mid even more narrow and claustrophobic. I’d like to see some playtesting on a17 before I proceed much further.

Screens: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197998577229/screenshots/

Well, since it's literally the strongest position on the middle, I supposed a little more incentive to soldiers to get up there might be needed. I don't see any reason not to have it there unless the position proves too powerful. I have a feeling that scouts are already very powerful on this middle, so I'll be really careful with buffing them further. As you see health is really scarce already on the mid point, which I think is a good thing. Adding health kits beneath the bridges might pull some action over there, but I'm not really sure I want that. But if you feel the health kits up there dont fill any role at all (in playtesting) I might remove them.

Either way I went ahead and released a17 with some more changes to mid: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2447457/cp_quay_a17.bsp.bz2

In a future version I'll remove the water at last entirely. One thing I'm considering is simply removing the whole crane thing on 2 and placing the capture point on the ground. What do you think?

Here's what I've done so far: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2447457/location.PNG

As you say I think I've overdone fences a bit, since snipers shouldnt be that powerful in the first place. I've already been moving 2nd away from mid, but no real drastic changes.

I heard some comments on an excess of props, I'm especially thinking of the area around 2: do you think it is problematic or it's something that players can deal with? Of course there is some space for changes, but I quite like how it plays right now. Of course it's the players' call, so please tell me what you think.

Thanks guys for playing! As I've suspected the current mid will require a quite major rework one way or another. I'm quite curious whether there are issues with the cap point structure itself, or if it's mainly the size that causes issues? Either way I will be working with mid over the next couple of days, so please tell me what you think and what you'd like me to work with if I decide to make an entirely new mid.

Here's a16 for you: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2447457/cp_quay_a16.bsp.bz2

Screens at my steam profile: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197998577229/screenshots/