i'm pretty sure i never said uberstalling was a good thing

Are we talking about shit tier valve servers full of free to play players? Engineer literally plays itself. Medic is also a ridiculously easy class, just click on your Heavy once and follow him. Heavy is easier than Pyro too, you get more health and your primary is more powerful, easier to aim, and has better range. And shooting the floor as Soldier is really, really easy in pubs. Stupid pubbers can W+M1 as Pyro around as easy as Heavy or Soldier, but unlike them, you actually need a tiny, tiny bit of gamesense if you want to get into CQC without being spotted.

I'm pretty sure any of those classes, bar maybe Heavy, would be far easier to play with a wheel or feet than Pyro. Especially with two pocket Medics. Against trackpad players who don't know what wasd keys are.

@pine_beetle/kairu remember that in this hypothetical scenario, the pyro wouldn't be able to stall ubers. Ubered Scouts still maul you, your airblast is worse at screwing up a pocket Soldier's shotgun aim, and they can probably just walk past you and get on your med anyway. I think reflects are really powerful but I really don't think I'd switch off Scout or Soldier for that alone.

Well, I would. But not many sane people would.

It is MUCH easier to get close to maximum DPS with Scout or Soldier than Pyro. Hitscan is reliable. Splashing the floor is reliable. Tracking a wide cone of short-ranged invisible particles, the only way you'd conceivably get close to the theoretical maximum is at point-blank, if they don't strafe, which never happens.

Also there's a range thing. Pyro has to get into close range without help from faster speed or advanced movement. Scout and Soldier are worth something at mid-range. Pyro isn't.

And remember that flares aren't mindless to hit in this hypothetical scenario because airblast preserves momentum.

Why would you say that? What annoys you, other than uberstalling (which would become worthless), movement control in general (which would also be pretty worthless), and an easy-to-be-mediocre with primary (which a tighter particle cone would fix)? The Axtinguisher doesn't even oneshot anything anymore.

What reward?

@smakers

The Flare Gun is incredibly unreliable at long range because you have to hit them twice in a row with a projectile that has no splash, and if they leave and get a health kit after the first one, you have to hit them twice again. The Detonator is very good at inflicting afterburn, which does 6 DPS, which is slightly better than poking someone across the map for 3 damage with the shotgun. The Axtinguisher does 88 damage, which means it's basically always better to just keep your flamethrower out (110 DPS vs the degreaser's 139, and it's far more unreliable). And nobody uses primaries that aren't the Degreaser, the Backburner is gimmicky and outclassed.

In close range, it's not really significantly better than Scout or Soldier? Degreaser does 139 theoretical DPS, which is basically impossible to hit because the particle cone is wide. Rockets do 140, Scattergun does 164, Shotgun does 144. It's easier to hit your targets with the Flamethrower, but leading a significant portion of the particles is more unreliable than aiming hitscan or shooting the floor. Also, in CQC reflects are heavily based on psychology and luck, instead of being able to react to them by sight.

If you consider Degreaser flaming and switching every 2.02 seconds to the Flare Gun, that's 152 DPS (degreaser switch speed is .23 seconds, so 90 damage in .46 seconds + (the remaining 2.02-.46 seconds times 139 dps), all over 2.02 seconds). You might as well be playing Scout, since it's around 100x more versatile. Also, the Flare Gun wouldn't be as easy to hit with in CQC if airblast preserved momentum.

Nobody wants to make the Pyro good at long range. The problem, or at least my problem, is that the Pyro is unique among CQC-focused classes in that he doesn't have an effective way of GETTING into close range. Scout runs fast and has double jump, Soldier rocket jumps, Spy has cloak. Pyro has detjumps I guess but they're awful and it usually still involves just standing on a prop and waiting for someone to walk into you. Outside of flamethrower range Pyro is just a fat Engineer without the buildings, and that's the best-case scenario (if you run a Shotgun). If you assume that every Flare Gun is a crit (which is blatantly false), the Flare Gun does 44.5 DPS at mid-range if you hit every shot, which is another big "if".

If uberstalling was removed, then nobody would play Pyro unless they were forced to (like in HL). The class would be a utility class without enough utility to bother with. And that's why, if airblast were changed to not be annoying (and not that useful), I'd want it to be better at fighting stuff. Not full-time good. Basically just to reflect stuff on spam-heavy maps during stalemates without being absolutely useless against Scouts.

also since when does pyro counter sniper lol

Have you actually read the thread? This mod halves the knockback of airblast and preserves forward momentum. Pyros wouldn't be able to stall Ubers for more than a second without getting obliterated, which makes it basically 100% outclassed at everything.

still have ptsd flashbacks from playing pug med against him

why yes, a pyro with two pocket medics CAN kill a bunch of (severely retarded) sentry-less engineers and syringe gun medics who try to shoot him (and miss) while hes ubered, does that prove anything?

You seem to be saying that the falloff doesn't matter because Pyros only get kills at point-blank so the rest of the flames don't matter anyway. And that's not right.

The further half of the pyro's flamethrower is important, for chasing down weakened targets (flamethrower particles inherit the pyro's momentum so they travel further when the pyro is moving forward, by the way), for being able to reach kiting players after the initial burst of damage from an ambush, for being able to penetrate through multiple targets to maximize DPS, for dissuading players from chasing you while retreating, and for having derpy +back pyrovpyro fights. At every distance where the Pyro is not in flamethrower range, it is basically useless, except for the enemy feeding you projectiles to reflect. Every pathetic hammer unit of range of the flamethrower counts.

The point-blank part of the flamethrower is literally only used during ambushing. And that's not what Pyro should be about as a class, or at least, not the entire reason.

If Pyro is useless in-game now and this change got his only situational use (uberstalling) removed, he should probably get some sort of buff to compensate, and his primary is a good place to start.

I'm pretty sure people don't complain about flames being overpowered because they don't get killed by flames very often.

<3 froot is a great soldier and a wonderful person

he likes going full-time arm scout in pugs though please beware

also elliot is pretty good too

I love playing pyro in pubs and in 6s, and I feel like the range change isn't the way to go with the class.

The airblast change is wonderful, but the chief reason people say that they hate playing against Pyros is that "if you get in close range you die and if you kite they're useless," and the way you've adjusted rampup and falloff means this is even more pronounced. Pyros will instantly kill people in close range (10 damage per particle times 25 particles per second means 250 DPS, aka around 1.8 point blank rocket launchers). But they only tickle at the limits your range, making you even easier to kite than before with your slow speed. This means that all the Pyro is good for is hiding around corners or in little nooks with the Detonator and facestabbing people. Which doesn't take that much skill and doesn't seem that fun, really.

The pyro doesn't need to be stronger at point blank, it needs to be not garbage at mid-range. I think you should increase flamethrower particle speed and lifetime and decrease the firing cone of the flamethrower, and make particles do closer to base damage (less rampup and falloff). This means that the Pyro can actually dm at midrange because the flamethrower extends further (particle lifetime) and is easier to track (particle speed), as well as does decent damage per particle. A tighter cone would reward good flamethrower tracking and punish w+m1 morons waving their mice, to help stop complaints that the class is poorly skill-indexed.

It seems like people think that getting cool reflects kills is the most fun and interesting part of pyro, and if you want to make it a flanker class, you should focus on making it more consistent, not more powerful at ambushing. And also less “all-or-nothing, win-or-lose”, because dming people on the flank is the fun part about pyro, and getting instantly mowed down isn't.

played on his dead open team for a little while

he's really fucking good at pocket

also his direct hit is legendary

http://i.imgur.com/wGy6bhh.jpg

I remember war after i52 complaining about how slow mixup played and how parking the bus when you're a round up isnt fun and nobody in europe does it

But that's not the rulesets fault

In na you stalemate until 1 team does something

In eu you stalemate and win

I've known Mini for basically as long as I've been playing 6v6, so I can tell: despite Mini's grumbled protests, under his tough, rough, gruff, inedible yellow banana peel exterior, there lies a very passionate, sweet, mushy, nutritious roamer who has the smarts, the jumps, and the DM to shoot the floor at an IM level if he puts his mind to it. Good luck finding a team :>

also hes a heavy main