Quick question... last night brought up some questions that I would like addressed.
Invite / high IM teams (preferably top 4). During each season do you guys:
a) Discuss mids/maps and how you want to play them?
b) Talk about your playstyle and how you want to refine it as the season goes on?
c) Do your teams actually go over demos of yourself (or your team)/other teams to refine your style and how you react to other teams?
It is my understanding that as a team you have to do these things outside of scrimming. In other words, talk about how to play off of each other and refine that as the season continues. Even tweak it sometimes in between rounds during matches. I get that most of it is responding to calls and giving the best calls you personally can during the time. And demos sometimes are tools for refining your playstyle.
Obviously, having a group of people with high experience takes away from this load and you don't necessarily have to refine it as much because "people just know" what to do and how to play off of certain situations. I mean in the past, I even remember hearing about teams during the EG times were actually going over demos in their hotel room just so they could win that season (s9?), is this still the case?
Everyone is welcome to give their thoughts and opinions, but it would be nice to hear it from the top 4 invite/IM teams. Just wondering the consensus.
Thanks :)
Quick question... last night brought up some questions that I would like addressed.
Invite / high IM teams (preferably top 4). During each season do you guys:
a) Discuss mids/maps and how you want to play them?
b) Talk about your playstyle and how you want to refine it as the season goes on?
c) Do your teams actually go over demos of yourself (or your team)/other teams to refine your style and how you react to other teams?
It is my understanding that as a team you have to do these things outside of scrimming. In other words, talk about how to play off of each other and refine that as the season continues. Even tweak it sometimes in between rounds during matches. I get that most of it is responding to calls and giving the best calls you personally can during the time. And demos sometimes are tools for refining your playstyle.
Obviously, having a group of people with high experience takes away from this load and you don't necessarily have to refine it as much because "people just know" what to do and how to play off of certain situations. I mean in the past, I even remember hearing about teams during the EG times were actually going over demos in their hotel room just so they could win that season (s9?), is this still the case?
Everyone is welcome to give their thoughts and opinions, but it would be nice to hear it from the top 4 invite/IM teams. Just wondering the consensus.
Thanks :)
CHEERISSa) Discuss mids/maps and how you want to play them?
this question is a bit tough for us, since the core of our team (plat/tlr/enigma/me) have played on and off together for over 3 years now. for the most part we already know what everyone's role is on midfights, but if we see that we're getting rolled or a certain player feels like they aren't being effective then we will normally talk about changes we can make after the scrim. as for general map play, during the regular season once sunshine was added we just started scrimming it first to get a feel for it, and gradually refined our playstyle on it after scrims. such as which are the best areas to hold when defending last or second, and the most effective ways to push in uber vs uber.
CHEERISSb) Talk about your playstyle and how you want to refine it as the season goes on?
I feel like most invite teams already have a pretty set playstyle, our team in particular known for our certain level of aggression, and froyo with their new roster seeming to adapt a similar style. I think the big thing that our team takes away from every scrim is just cohesion as a unit. With some of us being on new classes/roles we're still trying to figure out how to play off of each other in the way that we're used to.
CHEERISSc) Do your teams actually go over demos of yourself (or your team)/other teams to refine your style and how you react to other teams?
No, but we probably should be lol. I think for the most part we can tell how another team plays just from scrimming against them, so watching a demo to see what they're doing isn't really necessary. The only time its been brought up to watch our own demos was when we're trying to figure out how to counter a certain midfight, but we normally never get around to it because we're lazy.
CHEERISSI mean in the past, I even remember hearing about teams during the EG times were actually going over demos in their hotel room just so they could win that season (s9?), is this still the case?
Lan is a completely different story, at lan your entire focus is on tf2. Our team from basically the moment we wake up and get to the breakfast table is discussing different tactics or strategies for our upcoming matches (yes we're nerds). The issue at lan is that demos aren't available till after it, so we're forced to watch VOD's from the stream which doesn't quite give you the same view as a STV does.
[quote=CHEERISS]a) Discuss mids/maps and how you want to play them?[/quote]
this question is a bit tough for us, since the core of our team (plat/tlr/enigma/me) have played on and off together for over 3 years now. for the most part we already know what everyone's role is on midfights, but if we see that we're getting rolled or a certain player feels like they aren't being effective then we will normally talk about changes we can make after the scrim. as for general map play, during the regular season once sunshine was added we just started scrimming it first to get a feel for it, and gradually refined our playstyle on it after scrims. such as which are the best areas to hold when defending last or second, and the most effective ways to push in uber vs uber.
[quote=CHEERISS]b) Talk about your playstyle and how you want to refine it as the season goes on?[/quote]
I feel like most invite teams already have a pretty set playstyle, our team in particular known for our certain level of aggression, and froyo with their new roster seeming to adapt a similar style. I think the big thing that our team takes away from every scrim is just cohesion as a unit. With some of us being on new classes/roles we're still trying to figure out how to play off of each other in the way that we're used to.
[quote=CHEERISS]
c) Do your teams actually go over demos of yourself (or your team)/other teams to refine your style and how you react to other teams?[/quote]
No, but we probably should be lol. I think for the most part we can tell how another team plays just from scrimming against them, so watching a demo to see what they're doing isn't really necessary. The only time its been brought up to watch our own demos was when we're trying to figure out how to counter a certain midfight, but we normally never get around to it because we're lazy.
[quote=CHEERISS]I mean in the past, I even remember hearing about teams during the EG times were actually going over demos in their hotel room just so they could win that season (s9?), is this still the case?[/quote]
Lan is a completely different story, at lan your entire focus is on tf2. Our team from basically the moment we wake up and get to the breakfast table is discussing different tactics or strategies for our upcoming matches (yes we're nerds). The issue at lan is that demos aren't available till after it, so we're forced to watch VOD's from the stream which doesn't quite give you the same view as a STV does.
A. No, but we used to, and probably should. The biggest problem with this is that the second something goes wrong, people tend to revert or overcompensate, even when they may not be the problem. If you have a game plan, stick to it (in scrims) until you get it down, then switch it up to another game plan. Pretty soon you'll have 3-5 ways to play that you can switch between to keep your opponent guessing.
B. Yes.
C. Very rarely, we've seen 99% of the stuff people can throw at us. If something truly has us perplexed, we will.
A. No, but we used to, and probably should. The biggest problem with this is that the second something goes wrong, people tend to revert or overcompensate, even when they may not be the problem. If you have a game plan, stick to it (in scrims) until you get it down, then switch it up to another game plan. Pretty soon you'll have 3-5 ways to play that you can switch between to keep your opponent guessing.
B. Yes.
C. Very rarely, we've seen 99% of the stuff people can throw at us. If something truly has us perplexed, we will.
First of all, thank you guys for taking time to answer. Really appreciate it. I have always been a fan of how you guys play together. Its awesome that all of you all have stuck together for so long.
harbleuthis question is a bit tough for us, since the core of our team (plat/tlr/enigma/me) have played on and off together for over 3 years now. for the most part we already know what everyone's role is on midfights, but if we see that we're getting rolled or a certain player feels like they aren't being effective then we will normally talk about changes we can make after the scrim. as for general map play, during the regular season once sunshine was added we just started scrimming it first to get a feel for it, and gradually refined our playstyle on it after scrims. such as which are the best areas to hold when defending last or second, and the most effective ways to push in uber vs uber.
So basically, what you are saying is if you're a newer team developing a style and have a group who have never played together/less experienced players. Then these things are definitely valid options to get better together?
Maybe I should re-ask this question.. newer invite teams who have players which this is your first/second season in invite. How do you guys refine your playstyle to compete with the upper invite? Do you guys do these things? Any other things to keep everyone on the same page that I didn't think of?
First of all, thank you guys for taking time to answer. Really appreciate it. I have always been a fan of how you guys play together. Its awesome that all of you all have stuck together for so long.
[quote=harbleu]
this question is a bit tough for us, since the core of our team (plat/tlr/enigma/me) have played on and off together for over 3 years now. for the most part we already know what everyone's role is on midfights, but if we see that we're getting rolled or a certain player feels like they aren't being effective then we will normally talk about changes we can make after the scrim. as for general map play, during the regular season once sunshine was added we just started scrimming it first to get a feel for it, and gradually refined our playstyle on it after scrims. such as which are the best areas to hold when defending last or second, and the most effective ways to push in uber vs uber.[/quote]
So basically, what you are saying is if you're a newer team developing a style and have a group who have never played together/less experienced players. Then these things are definitely valid options to get better together?
Maybe I should re-ask this question.. newer invite teams who have players which this is your first/second season in invite. How do you guys refine your playstyle to compete with the upper invite? Do you guys do these things? Any other things to keep everyone on the same page that I didn't think of?
we're just out here to have a good brawl m8
we're just out here to have a good brawl m8
a) Absolutely, and I think it's something every team should do
b) Yes
c) If we feel like something is consistently going wrong we will go over an stv of our team or a player pov depending on who wants to. I don't think we've ever gotten together and looked at other team's demos, I know individually some of us have, but never as a group.
We often talk about what we could have done better or what went wrong mid-scrim, and it's probably the biggest issue we have as a team, because as we're talking about it there are things we need to be focusing on/planning for and we just don't because people are talking. It's an important note for our team that a majority of talking about things that already happened be done after the scrim.
That being said, if somebody knows what's going wrong or has a better perspective on things and/or they know how to fix it, it's okay for them to speak up and make a proper call. It's also important for our teammates to have faith in that call and follow through
mustardoverlordd) keep the same core of players for multiple seasons in a row, and build on that over time
While I agree with this I think it's important to keep playing with the people you enjoy playing with rather than cut somebody on your team or leaving it because you thought they "just weren't good enough."
Make sure your goals are the same at the beginning of the season, if they aren't, then you shouldn't be playing together.
a) Absolutely, and I think it's something every team should do
b) Yes
c) If we feel like something is consistently going wrong we will go over an stv of our team or a player pov depending on who wants to. I don't think we've ever gotten together and looked at other team's demos, I know individually some of us have, but never as a group.
We often talk about what we could have done better or what went wrong mid-scrim, and it's probably the biggest issue we have as a team, because as we're talking about it there are things we need to be focusing on/planning for and we just don't because people are talking. It's an important note for our team that a majority of talking about things that already happened be done after the scrim.
That being said, if somebody knows what's going wrong or has a better perspective on things and/or they know how to fix it, it's okay for them to speak up and make a proper call. It's also important for our teammates to have faith in that call and follow through
[quote=mustardoverlord]
d) keep the same core of players for multiple seasons in a row, and build on that over time
[/quote]
While I agree with this I think it's important to keep playing with the people you enjoy playing with rather than cut somebody on your team or leaving it because you thought they "just weren't good enough."
Make sure your goals are the same at the beginning of the season, if they aren't, then you shouldn't be playing together.
If it wasn't already implied enough by harb and plat's posts, there's a 4th bullet point that should be added to your list:
d) keep the same core of players for multiple seasons in a row, and build on that over time
I might be captain obvious over here but yeah, that kinda matters a lot
If it wasn't already implied enough by harb and plat's posts, there's a 4th bullet point that should be added to your list:
d) keep the same core of players for multiple seasons in a row, and build on that over time
I might be captain obvious over here but yeah, that kinda matters a lot
Hivemind soon to be invite 8)
Hivemind soon to be invite 8)
a) Discuss mids/maps and how you want to play them?
At first, we kinda just freestyle mids and see what works and what we are comfortable with. We adjust as needed and try to find a few good working strategies. A common misconception is that invite teams have ridiculously complex strats, but that's not really true all of the time. It's just that invite teams are much better at executing all strats than lesser-skilled teams, no matter how basic the strat is.
b) Talk about your playstyle and how you want to refine it as the season goes on?
This is only necessary when someone doesn't do enough of what they should be doing to help the team. Like if a roamer isn't bombing enough, or if people die at times where deaths aren't necessary.
c) Do your teams actually go over demos of yourself (or your team)/other teams to refine your style and how you react to other teams?
It's never a bad idea to do this, but I think any team I've been on would do it if we were trying to figure out what's wrong with our mids.
I mean in the past, I even remember hearing about teams during the EG times were actually going over demos in their hotel room just so they could win that season (s9?), is this still the case?
Eh, it depends. It definitely helped blight-own during s6 finals against my team, because they watched our granary demos and countered our mids incredibly (and granary is more dependent on mids than any map). We got rolled in like 10 minutes, and we were very strong on granary, too. If they didn't study our stuff, it surely would have been much closer. Aside from that, some teams still might do things similar, but it's not ridiculously common as you'd think.
[quote]a) Discuss mids/maps and how you want to play them?[/quote]
At first, we kinda just freestyle mids and see what works and what we are comfortable with. We adjust as needed and try to find a few good working strategies. A common misconception is that invite teams have ridiculously complex strats, but that's not really true all of the time. It's just that invite teams are much better at executing all strats than lesser-skilled teams, no matter how basic the strat is.
[quote]b) Talk about your playstyle and how you want to refine it as the season goes on?[/quote]
This is only necessary when someone doesn't do enough of what they should be doing to help the team. Like if a roamer isn't bombing enough, or if people die at times where deaths aren't necessary.
[quote]c) Do your teams actually go over demos of yourself (or your team)/other teams to refine your style and how you react to other teams?[/quote]
It's never a bad idea to do this, but I think any team I've been on would do it if we were trying to figure out what's wrong with our mids.
[quote]I mean in the past, I even remember hearing about teams during the EG times were actually going over demos in their hotel room just so they could win that season (s9?), is this still the case?[/quote]
Eh, it depends. It definitely helped blight-own during s6 finals against my team, because they watched our granary demos and countered our mids incredibly (and granary is more dependent on mids than any map). We got rolled in like 10 minutes, and we were very strong on granary, too. If they didn't study our stuff, it surely would have been much closer. Aside from that, some teams still might do things similar, but it's not ridiculously common as you'd think.
we saw you guys wreck col on granary at lan and we came up with the counter strat while taking a piss before the match. We figured that if we stuffed your garage rollout we'd be good, it just worked waaay better than was expected. Probably because tyler is shit
we saw you guys wreck col on granary at lan and we came up with the counter strat while taking a piss before the match. We figured that if we stuffed your garage rollout we'd be good, it just worked waaay better than was expected. Probably because tyler is shit
didnt you also invent some rollouts while taking that piss or something
didnt you also invent some rollouts while taking that piss or something
Platinumwe saw you guys wreck col on granary at lan and we came up with the counter strat while taking a piss before the match. We figured that if we stuffed your garage rollout we'd be good, it just worked waaay better than was expected. Probably because tyler is shit
Yeah, we didn't adjust and just kept going garage for some reason. Also, Tyler is indeed shit.
[quote=Platinum]we saw you guys wreck col on granary at lan and we came up with the counter strat while taking a piss before the match. We figured that if we stuffed your garage rollout we'd be good, it just worked waaay better than was expected. Probably because tyler is shit[/quote]
Yeah, we didn't adjust and just kept going garage for some reason. Also, Tyler is indeed shit.
How do you guys refine your playstyle to compete with the upper invite? Do you guys do these things?
In my limited experience / opinion:
When a team forms and starts scrimming, they'll do things pretty vanilla, trying to figure out where the teams strengths and weaknesses are, in addition to gauging their performances against the really good teams.
Since huge upsets aren't really common in Invite, lower teams have to maybe do something crazy in order to win rounds (spy to mid or 'the hurricane' or something) because as Plat mentioned, they've seen 99% of it before.
[quote] How do you guys refine your playstyle to compete with the upper invite? Do you guys do these things?[/quote]
In my limited experience / opinion:
When a team forms and starts scrimming, they'll do things pretty vanilla, trying to figure out where the teams strengths and weaknesses are, in addition to gauging their performances against the really good teams.
Since huge upsets aren't really common in Invite, lower teams have to maybe do something crazy in order to win rounds (spy to mid or 'the hurricane' or something) because as Plat mentioned, they've seen 99% of it before.
shiznodidnt you also invent some rollouts while taking that piss or something
Yeah, that's how we stuffed the garage rollout. This was before gunboats and I did an efficient fast rollout so I could be on top of crates prior to the soldiers coming out with as much health as possible. I had done it the season before against 20id/seagull, but I had tried to overextend and blow the demo up at his health pack that season and it didn't fully work out the way I planned.
[quote=shizno]didnt you also invent some rollouts while taking that piss or something[/quote]
Yeah, that's how we stuffed the garage rollout. This was before gunboats and I did an efficient fast rollout so I could be on top of crates prior to the soldiers coming out with as much health as possible. I had done it the season before against 20id/seagull, but I had tried to overextend and blow the demo up at his health pack that season and it didn't fully work out the way I planned.
nah we aint gay we just play
nah we aint gay we just play
@Platinum and Harbleu
During the i46 mix^, I heard you guys talking about your team not really having a main caller because you trusted in everybody to do their jobs. Is this still the case? If so, do you think this can harm your team in any way?
@Platinum and Harbleu
During the i46 mix^, I heard you guys talking about your team not really having a main caller because you trusted in everybody to do their jobs. Is this still the case? If so, do you think this can harm your team in any way?
Doug@Platinum and Harbleu
During the i46 mix^, I heard you guys talking about your team not really having a main caller because you trusted in everybody to do their jobs. Is this still the case? If so, do you think this can harm your team in any way?
last season i definitely was the main caller for our team, but this season with all of our classes shifted around we have kinda gone back to having input from everyone. i do think having a confident main caller for the team is the easiest option to go with, since it keeps the team all on the same page, but it really just comes down to the players knowing what they should be doing. not having a main caller can definitely lead to some issues with coordination though, as its probably shown in our play so far this season. i46 mix^ was a special team and one of the few teams i think that style would work for, maybe the i49 epsilon too.
[quote=Doug]@Platinum and Harbleu
During the i46 mix^, I heard you guys talking about your team not really having a main caller because you trusted in everybody to do their jobs. Is this still the case? If so, do you think this can harm your team in any way?[/quote]
last season i definitely was the main caller for our team, but this season with all of our classes shifted around we have kinda gone back to having input from everyone. i do think having a confident main caller for the team is the easiest option to go with, since it keeps the team all on the same page, but it really just comes down to the players knowing what they should be doing. not having a main caller can definitely lead to some issues with coordination though, as its probably shown in our play so far this season. i46 mix^ was a special team and one of the few teams i think that style would work for, maybe the i49 epsilon too.