Speedygeek here. I've been running a chunk of the newbie mixes for the past few weeks, and there have been a number of things that have come to our attention.
Shoutout to all who have helped out. During peak hours it seems that we're averaging 100+ players (!!!) in mumble at a time. Shoutout to Vick for getting this back again.
That said, there seems to be a lot of drama and negativity around the mixes, and some of it seems to deter potential new players away from newbie mixes so let's clear some things up.
First off, mixes are for new players, not for those in low open/ugc platinum. There have been a number of players in that level that have been coming in, rolling the newbies, and ruining the games.
Play few times and if you keep rolling everyone by yourself, then you know you're too good for newbie mixes in your main class. If so, PLEASE play a different class or go play at #tf2mix. A few games just to see where you are, fine. But please don't do this every week, every mix.
That said, this is a newbie mix, not a team scrim channel. There have been many players from the same team who keep trying to stack teams asking to play with so and so and complaining when they don't get to. If you and your buddy get placed on same team, that's great, but please don't ask us to stack the teams in your favor.
Recently there have been a number of issues. Here are some examples that I'll clear up:
1) Coach yells at newbies in game for repeatedly ignoring them.
Notice I said ignore. You're not in newbie mixes to show off.
Don't want to learn? You have no business being there.
Trying to do what coaches tell you and not succeeding is ok.
Completely ignoring coaches is not.
Coaches raging on new players who are trying is also unacceptable.
2) Moving around in class / mix channels to try to stack teams or cut in front of other players trying to max your chance to play, hoping organizers like me won't notice.
This is really insulting. Coaches pretend to be newbies and vice versa, and they move around in channels trying to stack teams. People move to different class channels (when they've played a bunch) to cut in front of other players to play. This kind of behavior forces organizers to counter-move people around to keep track of players.
3) Being rude to other players in mixes, and being rude to organizers in class channels by spamming. Sometimes coaches/organizers have to mute.
4) Complaining about coaches being not good enough. We've already tried IM+ coaches only rule, and that didn't work.
Not ok with Open level coaches? Please go find many IM+ coaches who will show up consistently. There are only a handful of IM+ coaches who do, and they aren't enough.
These are just few of the issues that organizers have to deal with. There are almost always a shortage of coaches and organizers every mix, and players get frustrated waiting. People complain abuse for organizers muting players, counter-moving players during mix organizations, and for coaches yelling at them.
Sometimes in our effort to shut down the trolling and whatnot will end up affecting people who are innocent. We're trying our best, but we do mess up.
If we mute, yell at, or move people, we're trying to keep things from getting out of hand. If someone does this to you and you're innocent, please let them know politely on the spot. We don't respond well to rude rantings or threats.
The coaches and organizers are volunteers doing this just to help and have fun. Unfortunately, I've only gotten complaints and even threats. No thank you's, no appreciation. Many coaches/organizers said they feel the same. That's not fun.
So please give us the respect and know that we aren't there to ruin the experience, but to help.
Speedygeek here. I've been running a chunk of the newbie mixes for the past few weeks, and there have been a number of things that have come to our attention.
Shoutout to all who have helped out. During peak hours it seems that we're averaging 100+ players (!!!) in mumble at a time. Shoutout to Vick for getting this back again.
That said, there seems to be a lot of drama and negativity around the mixes, and some of it seems to deter potential new players away from newbie mixes so let's clear some things up.
First off, mixes are for [i]new[/i] players, not for those in low open/ugc platinum. There have been a number of players in that level that have been coming in, rolling the newbies, and ruining the games.
Play few times and if you keep rolling everyone by yourself, then you know you're too good for newbie mixes in your main class. If so, PLEASE play a different class or go play at #tf2mix. A few games just to see where you are, fine. But please don't do this every week, every mix.
That said, this is a newbie mix, not a team scrim channel. There have been many players from the same team who keep trying to stack teams asking to play with so and so and complaining when they don't get to. If you and your buddy get placed on same team, that's great, but please don't ask us to stack the teams in your favor.
Recently there have been a number of issues. Here are some examples that I'll clear up:
1) Coach yells at newbies in game for repeatedly [i]ignoring[/i] them.
[b]Notice I said ignore.[/b] You're not in newbie mixes to show off.
Don't want to learn? You have no business being there.
Trying to do what coaches tell you and not succeeding is ok.
Completely ignoring coaches is not.
Coaches raging on new players who are trying is also unacceptable.
2) Moving around in class / mix channels to try to stack teams or cut in front of other players trying to max your chance to play, hoping organizers like me won't notice.
This is really insulting. Coaches pretend to be newbies and vice versa, and they move around in channels trying to stack teams. People move to different class channels (when they've played a bunch) to cut in front of other players to play. This kind of behavior forces organizers to counter-move people around to keep track of players.
3) Being rude to other players in mixes, and being rude to organizers in class channels by spamming. Sometimes coaches/organizers have to mute.
4) Complaining about coaches being not good enough. We've already tried IM+ coaches only rule, and that didn't work.
Not ok with Open level coaches? Please go find many IM+ coaches who will show up consistently. There are only a handful of IM+ coaches who do, and they aren't enough.
These are just few of the issues that organizers have to deal with. There are almost always a shortage of coaches and organizers every mix, and players get frustrated waiting. People complain abuse for organizers muting players, counter-moving players during mix organizations, and for coaches yelling at them.
Sometimes in our effort to shut down the trolling and whatnot will end up affecting people who are innocent. We're trying our best, but we do mess up.
If we mute, yell at, or move people, we're trying to keep things from getting out of hand. If someone does this to you and you're innocent, please let them know [i]politely[/i] on the spot. We don't respond well to rude rantings or threats.
The coaches and organizers are volunteers doing this just to help and have fun. Unfortunately, I've only gotten complaints and even threats. No thank you's, no appreciation. Many coaches/organizers said they feel the same. That's not fun.
So please give us the respect and know that we aren't there to ruin the experience, but to help.
still haven't tried a mix
still haven't tried a mix
Good post man. Hopefully discussions like this will continue so we can keep working these issues out. I can't reiterate this enough it's "NEWBIE MIX" these are for new players who are wanting to get into comp 6s. The Newbie Mix is a stepping stone so players can move on to other PUGs like #tf2mix and hopefully start building their own teams and scrimming against like skilled level teams. It's also really important for the newbie mix players to start givning feedback on their experience so we can have a bit of quality control on the non-helpful coaches.
Good post man. Hopefully discussions like this will continue so we can keep working these issues out. I can't reiterate this enough it's "NEWBIE MIX" these are for new players who are wanting to get into comp 6s. The Newbie Mix is a stepping stone so players can move on to other PUGs like #tf2mix and hopefully start building their own teams and scrimming against like skilled level teams. It's also really important for the newbie mix players to start givning feedback on their experience so we can have a bit of quality control on the non-helpful coaches.
After you play lets say 25 mixes i think you're ready to move on. I think by around that time you should have learned the general flow of the game and thats the important thing. lets have these people move on to #tf2mix or other pug groups.
I think theres a lot of people that are good enough to move on. lets focus on the people who are completely new and need the most help
If people are trolling (including coaches) lets just kick them out. sometimes some newbies are generally confused and don't hear what coaches say but if they're blatantly ignoring coaches lets kick them out. If they're talking over coaches trying to organize mute them. if they do it consistently kick them.
Lets try and create some set of rules and get this a bit more structured
After you play lets say 25 mixes i think you're ready to move on. I think by around that time you should have learned the general flow of the game and thats the important thing. lets have these people move on to #tf2mix or other pug groups.
I think theres a lot of people that are good enough to move on. lets focus on the people who are completely new and need the most help
If people are trolling (including coaches) lets just kick them out. sometimes some newbies are generally confused and don't hear what coaches say but if they're blatantly ignoring coaches lets kick them out. If they're talking over coaches trying to organize mute them. if they do it consistently kick them.
Lets try and create some set of rules and get this a bit more structured
When I coached, there were more than enough times were the team as a whole decided to do something other than what I had suggested. And this isn't a bad thing. There are coaches for a reason, but if teams can synchronize properly and all agree on what they want to do, I think that is great because they're learning in a way a coach necessarily cannot teach them right on the spot. Otherwise, I agree with people needing to listen to the coaches more.
When I coached, there were more than enough times were the team as a whole decided to do something other than what I had suggested. And this isn't a bad thing. There are coaches for a reason, but if teams can synchronize properly and all agree on what they want to do, I think that is great because they're learning in a way a coach necessarily cannot teach them right on the spot. Otherwise, I agree with people needing to listen to the coaches more.
G1If people are trolling (including coaches) lets just kick them out.
...
Lets try and create some set of rules and get this a bit more structured
Easier said than done. Kicking/banning comes off even more abrasive than muting/moving people around/yelling etc. Quite frankly, it takes extreme methods like this sometimes to keep the mixes enforced, but muting/moving people back/whatnot has gotten me enough complaints as it is. I don't see how kicking/banning will help.
kirbyBut a little later on, I hear people talking about how he stopped playing medic and went sniper or whatever.
I'm not sure if this is the same game you're referring to, but there was a game where I was the coach and salty volunteered to medic. After awhile we found that I was rolling them too easily and therefore we switched. Me to medic, salty to combat class. So at least in that game, his switch to a combat role was justified.
[quote=G1]
If people are trolling (including coaches) lets just kick them out.
...
Lets try and create some set of rules and get this a bit more structured[/quote]
Easier said than done. Kicking/banning comes off even more abrasive than muting/moving people around/yelling etc. Quite frankly, it takes extreme methods like this sometimes to keep the mixes enforced, but muting/moving people back/whatnot has gotten me enough complaints as it is. I don't see how kicking/banning will help.
[quote=kirby]But a little later on, I hear people talking about how he stopped playing medic and went sniper or whatever.
[/quote]
I'm not sure if this is the same game you're referring to, but there was a game where I was the coach and salty volunteered to medic. After awhile we found that I was rolling them too easily and therefore we switched. Me to medic, salty to combat class. So at least in that game, his switch to a combat role was justified.
Awesome post, hopefully the newbie mixes continue with a new and improved attitude!
Also, I feel like I'm kind of in limbo with the newbie mixes. I want to take part in them, but I am not really a newbie. However I am also far from an expert. Would 2/3rd's of a season in open be enough to coach? Or should I just play and offclass as a newbie?
Awesome post, hopefully the newbie mixes continue with a new and improved attitude!
Also, I feel like I'm kind of in limbo with the newbie mixes. I want to take part in them, but I am not really a newbie. However I am also far from an expert. Would 2/3rd's of a season in open be enough to coach? Or should I just play and offclass as a newbie?
#6, After posting that I completely realized I was thinking of some pugs that pwr put together. That was my bad and edited the post.
#6, After posting that I completely realized I was thinking of some pugs that pwr put together. That was my bad and edited the post.
"First off, newbie mixes are for new players, not for players in low open/ugc platinum. There have been a number of players in that level that have been coming in, rolling the newbies, and ruining the games."
This moreso than anything else, honestly. I've mentored a few games where the newbies themselves point to someone on the other team and say "Isn't he like really good or something" and they spend the match worrying about him.
"First off, newbie mixes are for new players, not for players in low open/ugc platinum. There have been a number of players in that level that have been coming in, rolling the newbies, and ruining the games."
This moreso than anything else, honestly. I've mentored a few games where the newbies themselves point to someone on the other team and say "Isn't he like really good or something" and they spend the match worrying about him.
Then I probably won't play in any of them (except for maybe on demo... I'm an awful demo). If you need any coaches that play on a high open team (but are probably not necessarily high open), let me know :P
Then I probably won't play in any of them (except for maybe on demo... I'm an awful demo). If you need any coaches that play on a high open team (but are probably not necessarily high open), let me know :P
vanillaThen I probably won't play in any of them (except for maybe on demo... I'm an awful demo). If you need any coaches that play on a high open team (but are probably not necessarily high open), let me know :P
hey that's me join the club
[quote=vanilla]Then I probably won't play in any of them (except for maybe on demo... I'm an awful demo). [b]If you need any coaches that play on a high open team (but are probably not necessarily high open[/b]), let me know :P[/quote]
hey that's me join the club
Terywjnewbies themselves point to someone on the other team and say "Isn't he like really good or something" and they spend the match worrying about him.
Yeah, I remember when I first started putting together my PUG group, and there are a couple things you have to explain:
1) You call the person's class, not their name.
2) The whole point of a newbie mix is to learn some metagame and gamesense. The whole point of this is for the player to put themselves in advantageous situations. 90% of the "carries" in the newbie mixes, especially good scouts are good at 1v1s and consistently find themselves in those situations because of lack of coordination and calling. Explain that they need to stay aggressive and smart at the same time. Position means a lot.
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For coaches that want to help, but aren't necessarily "good" or "experienced" enough, just come by and try to teach as much as you can. The newbie mixes are more about being able to teach newbies how to think about the game in a constructive and analytical way. If you can do this and main call well, you are qualified to coach a newbie mix.
I'm trying to keep it to people with multiple seasons ESEA experience, but if not that's fine. If you want to coach but aren't sure how good you'd be, try asking to double up (2 Open coaches/team) so that it lessens the burden. I hate to turn away eager players, just come by and I'll find you a spot :)
This is especially true for the next mix which will be next friday. We're going to keep big ticket coaches casting with duder and lower level ones can help us get consistent pugs going.
[quote=Terywj]newbies themselves point to someone on the other team and say "Isn't he like really good or something" and they spend the match worrying about him.[/quote]
Yeah, I remember when I first started putting together my PUG group, and there are a couple things you have to explain:
1) You call the person's class, not their name.
2) The whole point of a newbie mix is to learn some metagame and gamesense. The whole point of this is for the player to put themselves in advantageous situations. 90% of the "carries" in the newbie mixes, especially good scouts are good at 1v1s and consistently find themselves in those situations because of lack of coordination and calling. Explain that they need to stay aggressive and smart at the same time. Position means a lot.
-------------------------------
For coaches that want to help, but aren't necessarily "good" or "experienced" enough, just come by and try to teach as much as you can. The newbie mixes are more about being able to teach newbies how to think about the game in a constructive and analytical way. If you can do this and main call well, you are qualified to coach a newbie mix.
I'm trying to keep it to people with multiple seasons ESEA experience, but if not that's fine. If you want to coach but aren't sure how good you'd be, try asking to double up (2 Open coaches/team) so that it lessens the burden. I hate to turn away eager players, just come by and I'll find you a spot :)
This is especially true for the next mix which will be next friday. We're going to keep big ticket coaches casting with duder and lower level ones can help us get consistent pugs going.
i never felt like i had any problem with my players listening to my calls. that may be because im invite though and they respect that more than an open player telling them what to do, or it may be becuase of difference in coaching styles. i would ask if anyone had any questions before we started and make sure they all knew their rollouts. then i'd tell them each what they should be doing on most midfights and call what they should be doing as we went along. after it was over i'd ask again if anyone had any questions or wanted input on their play. worked pretty well for me!
anyway i'll definitely do more whenever they are run again and i'll try and get some other invite players to come in too.
i never felt like i had any problem with my players listening to my calls. that may be because im invite though and they respect that more than an open player telling them what to do, or it may be becuase of difference in coaching styles. i would ask if anyone had any questions before we started and make sure they all knew their rollouts. then i'd tell them each what they should be doing on most midfights and call what they should be doing as we went along. after it was over i'd ask again if anyone had any questions or wanted input on their play. worked pretty well for me!
anyway i'll definitely do more whenever they are run again and i'll try and get some other invite players to come in too.
harbleuanyway i'll definitely do more whenever they are run again and i'll try and get some other invite players to come in too.
Next Friday at 8 or 9 EST and it'll be casted!
[quote=harbleu]anyway i'll definitely do more whenever they are run again and i'll try and get some other invite players to come in too.[/quote]
Next Friday at 8 or 9 EST and it'll be casted!
i just coached 2 games, never did before but it wasn't bad at all. i figured its a lot better to sit in spec and coach one team instead of playing so i can give someone else a chance to play anyway. the players listened really well, and for being new they definitely have a basic understanding of how 6s flow. i gave them the gist of pushes, holding, uber advantages/disadvantages, focusing targets etc. i didn't get too far in and i didn't give anything away of what the other team is doing either.
most of the time i would leave the decision making up to them so they would see the outcome of it and in return tell them why it did or didn't work. the admins of this definitely have a good thing going. and most of the people who are just getting into it, or just coming from lobbies definitely seem very eager to learn and its a positive thing since their is mumble and players aren't just randomly leaving or trolling like they would in lobbies. hope u guys enjoyed me coaching who ever was there
i just coached 2 games, never did before but it wasn't bad at all. i figured its a lot better to sit in spec and coach one team instead of playing so i can give someone else a chance to play anyway. the players listened really well, and for being new they definitely have a basic understanding of how 6s flow. i gave them the gist of pushes, holding, uber advantages/disadvantages, focusing targets etc. i didn't get too far in and i didn't give anything away of what the other team is doing either.
most of the time i would leave the decision making up to them so they would see the outcome of it and in return tell them why it did or didn't work. the admins of this definitely have a good thing going. and most of the people who are just getting into it, or just coming from lobbies definitely seem very eager to learn and its a positive thing since their is mumble and players aren't just randomly leaving or trolling like they would in lobbies. hope u guys enjoyed me coaching who ever was there
I coached and co-coached (w/ SteveC) 5 mixes yesterday, I didn't have any problems with players trying to troll or not listening to calls. Generally though, I think the coach needs to be main calling to make sure everyone knows what they're supposed to be doing. If you're coaching and not guiding them, theres no reason for you to even be in there playing. To fix the coach situation you should use an access token on the coach channel. Even though I highly disagree with the open rule would it even be possible to say that they should have made open playoffs? There were a lot of questions that I was asked over the 5 mixes that were pretty specific and I would have given them a completely different answer if I was still playing in open. A lot of them ask for tips to improve their game and I would not notice a lot of them if I didnt have the experience from switching from demo to scout,knowing how the whole team looks from combo to flank.
Yelling at mix players seems counter productive for everyone in the mix trying to learn because you're spending all your time yelling at one dude. Just ignore him and move on.
I coached and co-coached (w/ SteveC) 5 mixes yesterday, I didn't have any problems with players trying to troll or not listening to calls. Generally though, I think the coach needs to be main calling to make sure everyone knows what they're supposed to be doing. If you're coaching and not guiding them, theres no reason for you to even be in there playing. To fix the coach situation you should use an access token on the coach channel. Even though I highly disagree with the open rule would it even be possible to say that they should have made open playoffs? There were a lot of questions that I was asked over the 5 mixes that were pretty specific and I would have given them a completely different answer if I was still playing in open. A lot of them ask for tips to improve their game and I would not notice a lot of them if I didnt have the experience from switching from demo to scout,knowing how the whole team looks from combo to flank.
Yelling at mix players seems counter productive for everyone in the mix trying to learn because you're spending all your time yelling at one dude. Just ignore him and move on.
I see a lot of open level coaches in there and some of them do a great job while others are just bad. I've also had issues with low open/ugc players coming into the mix and showing off/arguing with my calls/being obnoxious, etc. I'm not the most knowledgeable player but I think I have stuff to teach the newbies and it's discouraging when you can't do your job properly.
I see a lot of open level coaches in there and some of them do a great job while others are just bad. I've also had issues with low open/ugc players coming into the mix and showing off/arguing with my calls/being obnoxious, etc. I'm not the most knowledgeable player but I think I have stuff to teach the newbies and it's discouraging when you can't do your job properly.
I should've clarified what I meant by yelling. What the coaches should do IF NECESSARY is chew out a trolling/rude/whatever player ONE ON ONE AFTER the mix. They should try their best to not let any immature behavior impact answering everyone else's questions, going over stuff, and playing the game. Unfortunately I heard that a coach raged (and by this as in went into a screaming fit, but I never heard who exactly) on a player or two while mixes were going on.
We have a shortage of coaches right now, even with the open level coaches in. I've had to spam guys like sigma (not that many of them bother to respond) over steam to ask people to get in and coach because we kept running out. We've already tried the IM+ coaches thing once, and it didn't work. I doubt that it will work now when not even making the restriction looser gets us enough coaches. Yes, there are some pros and cons to both choices, but most open coaches I've heard have been helpful to newbies.
That said, you guys have to remember that trolls/rude/showing off players aren't SO common that you'll run into them every mix. Also, interfering in game is different from trolling in the class selection channels. For example, people screaming (and yes this happens) when pyyyour/harblue/some well known player joins in "OMG ##### CAN I PLAY WITH YOU COACH CAN I PLAY WITH ##### PLZ HES MY IDOL OMG OMG OMG" or something along those lines is interfering with the organizers' job. I haven't had the chance to coach that many games, and have mainly been stuck as the organizer for the past few weeks, but things certainly do happen.
I should've clarified what I meant by yelling. What the coaches [i]should[/i] do IF NECESSARY is chew out a trolling/rude/whatever player ONE ON ONE AFTER the mix. They should try their best to not let any immature behavior impact answering everyone else's questions, going over stuff, and playing the game. Unfortunately I heard that a coach raged (and by this as in went into a screaming fit, but I never heard who exactly) on a player or two while mixes were going on.
We have a shortage of coaches right now, even with the open level coaches in. I've had to spam guys like sigma (not that many of them bother to respond) over steam to ask people to get in and coach because we kept running out. We've already tried the IM+ coaches thing once, and it didn't work. I doubt that it will work now when not even making the restriction looser gets us enough coaches. Yes, there are some pros and cons to both choices, but most open coaches I've heard have been helpful to newbies.
That said, you guys have to remember that trolls/rude/showing off players aren't SO common that you'll run into them every mix. Also, interfering in game is different from trolling in the class selection channels. For example, people screaming (and yes this happens) when pyyyour/harblue/some well known player joins in "OMG ##### CAN I PLAY WITH YOU COACH CAN I PLAY WITH ##### PLZ HES MY IDOL OMG OMG OMG" or something along those lines is interfering with the organizers' job. I haven't had the chance to coach that many games, and have mainly been stuck as the organizer for the past few weeks, but things certainly do happen.
extremely well put together i agree with really anyone could coach i have been coaching and am not a high tier player and the newbies listen to me just fine. Heck some of them even add me for more coaching. They listen to anyone with any sort of knowledge of the game and it's alot of fun to coach as well. More coaches guys!!
extremely well put together i agree with really anyone could coach i have been coaching and am not a high tier player and the newbies listen to me just fine. Heck some of them even add me for more coaching. They listen to anyone with any sort of knowledge of the game and it's alot of fun to coach as well. More coaches guys!!