Hey there everyone. Right now, my team has a few key issues to resolve when it comes to playing the early stage of gullywash mid - what would you all suggest for the following problems:
1. The demo is taking choke, and quickly getting assaulted as he enters the fight by a spare roamer or a w+m1 scout. We immediately get outspammed as a result and are wiped off of the midpoint.
2. When our soldiers jump, we are getting focused quickly and are failing to do any real damage at the midfight. Should we be waiting to jump? Should there be a focus called early by the demoman? It seems that other teams are generating 2v1s on gully mid - and we don't do likewise.
3. Where the hell do you move your medic to after both sollies take height? Ours keeps getting victimized by a jumper during our jumps.
4. Should our scouts be generally playing on the bridge, or under? Should they consider coming from choke to help the demoman?
5. What are people's thoughts on rolling out the demo through flank (and with the combo)?
6. Is it worth it to control the nipple with one of your soldiers? I can't help but think that it would allow you to counter a push from the opposing team towards either side.
Hey there everyone. Right now, my team has a few key issues to resolve when it comes to playing the early stage of gullywash mid - what would you all suggest for the following problems:
1. The demo is taking choke, and quickly getting assaulted as he enters the fight by a spare roamer or a w+m1 scout. We immediately get outspammed as a result and are wiped off of the midpoint.
2. When our soldiers jump, we are getting focused quickly and are failing to do any real damage at the midfight. Should we be waiting to jump? Should there be a focus called early by the demoman? It seems that other teams are generating 2v1s on gully mid - and we don't do likewise.
3. Where the hell do you move your medic to after both sollies take height? Ours keeps getting victimized by a jumper during our jumps.
4. Should our scouts be generally playing on the bridge, or under? Should they consider coming from choke to help the demoman?
5. What are people's thoughts on rolling out the demo through flank (and with the combo)?
6. Is it worth it to control the nipple with one of your soldiers? I can't help but think that it would allow you to counter a push from the opposing team towards either side.
1. there are a lot of reasons this could be happening that I can think of. off the top of my head:
a.) your demo is slow. the optimal rollout should get him there in time to at least get 1 early sticky on any aggressive scout and several on their soldiers, hopefully deterring their aggression somewhat.
b.) your demo doesn't have enough scout protection. he needs at least one and maybe both scouts with him to deny soldiers or aggro scouts.
c.) their demo is going flank. this rollout WILL get you there before the other demo. if their demo is going flank and wrecking yours, maybe try sending yours flank as well.
d.) they're overcommitting just for the demo kill. just counterjump your soldiers, have your scouts shoot their sollies in the air, and clean everyone up.
2.) I think that, when your demo goes choke, it can be useful to wait until their soldiers jump and then counterjump. it doesn't matter either way if their soldiers just jump their side, but if they jump yours that counterjump really helps. I don't think gullywash is really a map where your soldiers should be completely denied by scouts- if you're jumping your side they won't be there, and if you're jumping their side I'd have your demo with you and a scout rush up onto their side once your soldiers get there, so their scouts shouldn't be able to deal with you anyways.
3.) unless you specifically plan a mid fight where your med stays valley and players return to him when they need heals, he NEEDS to basically run up a side as soon as he gets to mid. unless one of their soldiers does a fast gunboats rollout, his life shouldn't be in danger if he just moves his ass. have him go up left elbow for sure if your demo rolls out choke (unless your combo rolls out choke as well, which btw is a viable option if your demo is fast/does a lot of dmg), and PROBABLY have your medic go up right aggro if you all go lower (although you could do a more passive climb up the left elbow from lower, I just don't usually do that).
4.) on the bridge. they probably don't need to go choke because I'm pretty sure going flank and jumping up the awning or straight onto the point via the log is faster.
5.) rolling your demo out through flank is often a very good idea, especially if their demo is doing a lot of damage to your combo. if their demo goes choke, your demo should get early dmg on him, then you can commit to killing him. if their demo also goes flank, just take over their side and they'll take over yours, and start from there (I'd prolly initiate aggression onto them with a soldier jump over the pt).
6.) nipple is a good position, but I wouldn't always take it right away cuz you can be so easily counter jumped. what I would do is, if both teams have kinda taken a side, jump 1 or both soldiers on nipple or past it directly onto them, then have scouts and demo follow up and dunk on them.
some of this is just based on how I like to play mid (aggro soldiers -> cleanup scouts), but whatevs, hope it helps
1. there are a lot of reasons this could be happening that I can think of. off the top of my head:
a.) your demo is slow. the optimal rollout should get him there in time to at least get 1 early sticky on any aggressive scout and several on their soldiers, hopefully deterring their aggression somewhat.
b.) your demo doesn't have enough scout protection. he needs at least one and maybe both scouts with him to deny soldiers or aggro scouts.
c.) their demo is going flank. this rollout WILL get you there before the other demo. if their demo is going flank and wrecking yours, maybe try sending yours flank as well.
d.) they're overcommitting just for the demo kill. just counterjump your soldiers, have your scouts shoot their sollies in the air, and clean everyone up.
2.) I think that, when your demo goes choke, it can be useful to wait until their soldiers jump and then counterjump. it doesn't matter either way if their soldiers just jump their side, but if they jump yours that counterjump really helps. I don't think gullywash is really a map where your soldiers should be completely denied by scouts- if you're jumping your side they won't be there, and if you're jumping their side I'd have your demo with you and a scout rush up onto their side once your soldiers get there, so their scouts shouldn't be able to deal with you anyways.
3.) unless you specifically plan a mid fight where your med stays valley and players return to him when they need heals, he NEEDS to basically run up a side as soon as he gets to mid. unless one of their soldiers does a fast gunboats rollout, his life shouldn't be in danger if he just moves his ass. have him go up left elbow for sure if your demo rolls out choke (unless your combo rolls out choke as well, which btw is a viable option if your demo is fast/does a lot of dmg), and PROBABLY have your medic go up right aggro if you all go lower (although you could do a more passive climb up the left elbow from lower, I just don't usually do that).
4.) on the bridge. they probably don't need to go choke because I'm pretty sure going flank and jumping up the awning or straight onto the point via the log is faster.
5.) rolling your demo out through flank is often a very good idea, especially if their demo is doing a lot of damage to your combo. if their demo goes choke, your demo should get early dmg on him, then you can commit to killing him. if their demo also goes flank, just take over their side and they'll take over yours, and start from there (I'd prolly initiate aggression onto them with a soldier jump over the pt).
6.) nipple is a good position, but I wouldn't always take it right away cuz you can be so easily counter jumped. what I would do is, if both teams have kinda taken a side, jump 1 or both soldiers on nipple or past it directly onto them, then have scouts and demo follow up and dunk on them.
some of this is just based on how I like to play mid (aggro soldiers -> cleanup scouts), but whatevs, hope it helps
1. If your demo goes choke he should have a scout with him, end of story. Our scouts like to go through choke to do it, as it puts them in a better position to actually defend the demo instead of hoping to defend by proximity.
2. Usually ive found that if your soldiers are getting focused early in the fight delaying both jumps by just a second usually does wonders. If your plan is to make a teamfight out of it, make sure its clear where your jumping.
3. Run up a side.
4. 1 scout under and 1 up top is generally strong when your demo rolls choke.
5. Rolling the demo flank is fine. you do however have to plan out the mid differently, or at least account for a weak left side.
6. Nipple sorta sucks for midfights imo. Use it situationally, and at your own risk.
1. If your demo goes choke he should have a scout with him, end of story. Our scouts like to go through choke to do it, as it puts them in a better position to actually defend the demo instead of hoping to defend by proximity.
2. Usually ive found that if your soldiers are getting focused early in the fight delaying both jumps by just a second usually does wonders. If your plan is to make a teamfight out of it, make sure its clear where your jumping.
3. Run up a side.
4. 1 scout under and 1 up top is generally strong when your demo rolls choke.
5. Rolling the demo flank is fine. you do however have to plan out the mid differently, or at least account for a weak left side.
6. Nipple sorta sucks for midfights imo. Use it situationally, and at your own risk.
1. your demo should be to get to choke and land a sticky on flank as the scouts are trying to get through and well before the soldiers ever arrive. this shouldn't be terribly hard to practice since since the jumps aren't very technical like on badlands/obscure. if he still gets bombed by the soldiers because he didn't do enough damage with his initial stickies (very likely), it's not a bad idea for him to just back out through choke and have your soldiers counter bomb their soldiers.
2. jump when they're not paying attention. if the other team is already staring at your soldiers, they've already done their job.
3. you can try having your medic rotate immediately to choke through the elbow thingy to meet up with your demoman and maybe scouts at choke. that, or rush up immediately through the wooden planks to their choke. whatever you do, don't sit for an extended period of time on the lower ground.
4. height advantage is key to winning this map.
5. if the other demoman is shitting on your combo too hard, it might be a good idea. it's much easier to do damage in general from choke though.
1. your demo should be to get to choke and land a sticky on flank as the scouts are trying to get through and well before the soldiers ever arrive. this shouldn't be terribly hard to practice since since the jumps aren't very technical like on badlands/obscure. if he still gets bombed by the soldiers because he didn't do enough damage with his initial stickies (very likely), it's not a bad idea for him to just back out through choke and have your soldiers counter bomb their soldiers.
2. jump when they're not paying attention. if the other team is already staring at your soldiers, they've already done their job.
3. you can try having your medic rotate immediately to choke through the elbow thingy to meet up with your demoman and maybe scouts at choke. that, or rush up immediately through the wooden planks to their choke. whatever you do, don't sit for an extended period of time on the lower ground.
4. height advantage is key to winning this map.
5. if the other demoman is shitting on your combo too hard, it might be a good idea. it's much easier to do damage in general from choke though.