Correct, but Oct 7th greatly improves the IDF's justification to bomb Palestine, which is why the attacks have ramped up massively after Oct 7th. All Hamas/Palestine have to do is not needlessly kill innocents and not bomb Israel for a few years to prove they are not violent barbarians and the whole world (or the only place that matters geopolitically, the US) will greatly improve their stance towards them and might even find a solution for this conflict. This is impossible for them.

Genocide is bad imo

get called out for justifying innocents getting killed and raped -> nonsensically respond once with tweet level religion rambling -> exit and claim you're getting baited
lol go back to twitter

But yeah, 99% of claims from the IDF or any Israeli propaganda machine are fabricated, why would Hamas stop in the middle of an attack in a country with one of the strongest militaries in the world, to do the things the IDF claims they were doing at the festival? That is literally suicide and would in no way benefit their goal. There is alot of video evidence that most of the deaths of the festival goers actually came from the IDF not being able to differentiate the civilians from Hamas combatants, why would Hamas rape people in a festival but not when they hold them hostage? Why does one side have countless video and photo evidence, first hand accounts, testimonies while the other never releases anything concrete and only sends people to talk for them on mass media shows? Most of their claims and justifications for committing genocide (which can never be justifiable ever) are manufactured to gain consent from people in the west to continue their bloody campaign. Its in these times that it is a good reminder to always do your own research instead of ingesting the curated crap that major news companies dish out and nothing else.

And fuck you mong enjoy the road ahead of you I'm sure you're going to go on to do great things in life

Hahahaha and people say I'm unhinged. I expected a lot of dumb things here but denying Oct 7th which there is massive video and witness evidence for I did not expect. Just shows how much some of you guys need to take a step back and look who you are agreeing with and think about your biases. If anyone is sheltered here, it is Westerners who cannot grasp the idea of a violent Middle Eastern group killing innocents and raping women because it goes against their strategic interests. Is it another Mossad false flag bro? Where is this magic bullet video evidence that shows the IDF did it? Just pathetic at this point. Take a breather. You're on the level of Holocaust denial.

This doesn't really make sense. This conflict has been ongoing for years. It didn't start at one point, you need to look at the whole, not just one date to justify abhorrent acts of a nation towards innocent civilans. Also, can you justify these sorts of acts? You say it "improves" the justification, but how can you improve the justification of something that is unjustifiable? It still remains as unjust as it was before.

If someone started attacking me in my own home, I'm going to fight back. If I just sit there and take it then I should expect to be homeless and beaten into the dirt, dieing. Surely it is a natural reaction to defend what you believe is yours and also your life? Sitting doing nothing to improve political standing will do nothing but kill them.

Doughy put it much more eloquently than I ever could thank u

I don't disagree that a historical understanding is required to solve this conflict. Let's assume Palestine is historically in the right (I don't know what this means. Jews deserving to be expelled or living as an oppressed minority under a Palestinian government?). This would still make Oct 7th a horrible attack - not too far from 9/11 in scale. This attack itself, differentiated from the conflict demands military action partly as did 9/11. What makes Oct 7th special (besides the magnitude, the recency and the fact that Palestine and Israel are technically not engaged in a full blown war) is that innocents were killed and raped without reason. They weren't collateral. It was not just fighting back. I wouldn't find much wrong with Hamas attacking Israeli military. It's war after all. When Israel bombs Gaza now, they have a supplementary justification to do it (besides the long history and attack-reaction repeat they have going on for decades) because their civilians were attacked mercilessly - and the whole reasonable world agrees.
I also think violence is definitely not helping Palestinians and a peaceful solution would be much more effective.

Oct 7th isn't special beyond the magnitude and recency. Israel has been killing innocent Palestinian kids for decades too in "retaliation" to Hamas.

Bombing civilian populations is a war crime. War crimes are never justifiable.

https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2023/12/5/voters-want-the-us-to-call-for-a-permanent-ceasefire-in-gaza-and-to-prioritize-diplomacy
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/48218-israel-palestine-fundamental-attitudes-to-the-conflict-among-western-europeans

Reminder Netanyahu shut down peace talks and every "offer" Israel has given to Palestine for a "two state solution" has involved Palestine ceding not only land in the West Bank that Israeli settlers are illegally settling on, but additional land that Israel wants from the West Bank, as well as provisions that still would let Israel occupy Palestine if they deem there to be a vague "security risk". Israel has not offered a peaceful solution that isn't inherently violent, while Palestine has.

I just gave you source that include an Israel/Palestine relations expert, the European Union diplomatic service, the Swedish government, the International Court of Justice, the French government, and the most prominent Middle Eastern news outlet all definitively calling it settler terrorism u numbskull

But they are almost always collateral damage because Hamas uses human shields.

Yeah, that's why Hamas should not use civilian buildings and human shields. I support this and so should you. Yet here we are.

I said reasonable.

I am not exactly pro-Bibi (although I do like some of his internal policies) so I don't know what that has to do with anything. Sharon was going to accept the peace deal until he got ousted. Arafat gave up on the Camp David Summit, which offered Palestine 91% of the West Bank, all of Gaza and more. This is somehow violence to you. Remember that in 2005 when Israel evicted its settlers from Gaza, Hamas took over and started bombing Israel. The problem the West Bank has its that it's a high ground and a much better bombing spot than Gaza. Why give that place to potential terrorists? It sounds completely fair to me that Israel thinks the people who just killed 700 civilians (for no purpose) and want to do it again could be a security risk. Peace talks are useless now imo, especially if Palestine insists on a crazy right of return. Action, or better said inaction by Hamas is required. They have to prove they are not barbarians.

Please learn the difference between terror, terrorizing and terrorism. These are very different things. It would be terrorism if settlers would attack, say people at a festival in Palestine. Oh wait.

Human shields and hiding in tunnels still doesn't justify indiscriminate bombing of every crucial palestinian facility, residential block, and refugee camp. If you think the IDF isn't trying to kill civilians you're wrong

You deny Oct 7th because you saw a tweet about it and you never respond to anything I say. Do you even know what indiscriminate bombing is? Israel could wipe Gaza off the map if they wanted to. 20k deaths? It could be 500k in a week. Israel dropped 65k tons of bombs and killed about 20k people including militants (Hamas numbers). You really think they can't do better than that?

.

idk why people are legitimizing idf propaganda with this guy. there are no human shields and there are no tunnels, at least none as complex as thsir batshit crazy blender generated models they run on the news. theres still no evidence for mass rapes or babies thrown in ovens either. yet we are the ones who have to go thru the bullshit of proving stuff step by step with sources?

If there are no human shields can you please provide me the location of where Hamas terrorists reside? Where do they launch rockets from? Where are the military Hamas buildings? Where do they store their weapons and bombs? Oh wait, you can't answer these questions because the answer to them is Gaza civilian buildings so you have to mention random shit you found on twitter.

this is why highlander players should be banned from these forums

So u can't lol. Keep mentioning random shit to cope.

its good to know that mossad aka the most efficient intelligence agency on earth lost the propaganda war against a bunch of communists shitposting on twitter so hard that they had to resort to weaponizing nazi losers that still haven't got over the 2010s immigrant scare because no one else is stupid enough to believe their propaganda

I'm doing a good job if I make all these people so mad they can't even try to respond to any of my arguments - or provide evidence for their ridiculous claims. Keep seething. I'm getting my Mossad money any day now.

can you please slither back to whatever sewer you came from

https://gifdb.com/images/high/vince-mcmahon-money-lautar-smell-money-556cxcypg3ohrvcq.gif

how self deluded do you have to be to say these things??

"IDF. They fight and kill Hamas, and Hamas are terrorists. This is obvious. Hamas attacked civilians on Oct 7th and this is why they are now getting bombed."

Okay, but you can see that the IDF would post stats that are biased towards them, right? Like if you say I cant use the stats from one side of the conflict, that means you cant use stats from the other side. There's no reason for anyone to believe the IDF is being truthful and non-biased in their reporting and statements and such. You can't simply just say things and expect for them to be true, like "oh Hamas are terrorists because they attacked civilians", because you need to use your brain and go before the 7th of October, and see the facts.

500 Palestinian children dead in 2014 summer, by my calculations that date appears to be before October 7th 2023...

Also, you keep switching your "proportionality" from Hamas vs Palestinian civilians and Israeli deaths vs Palestinian deaths. Which is it? I mentioned the Tokyo Fire Bombings because you said people shouldn't support Israel because they (accidentally) kill civilians.

When I talk about hamas soldiers to civilians, I am talking about the civilian:militant casualty rate, making a point about how while the IDF claims that they are fighting Hamas, they are massacring tons of civilians while barely killing any Hamas soldiers.

When I talk about israeli civilians to palestinian civilians, I am talking about proportionality and collective punishment. Why are the 2 million residents of Gaza being massacred?

These are 2 different points im making, both that the IDF is collectively punishing all of Gaza for "crimes" that they themselves have committed on a FAR larger scale, and that in that "mission" about "fighting terrorism", they seem to only be killing civilians, mostly children and women...

I'm iffy on Iraq, and kinda support Afghanistan but that's beside the point, and the argument for these wars is more than just "they have terrorists".

you being "iffy" on Iraq and pro invading Afghanistan really just seals the deal here, you are a pro-imperialist pro-colonialist who cares only about the spreading US hegemony, about the ability of the US and Nato to just bully the globe into doing whatever it is they want. You show that to you, middle-easterns are subhuman and their life is worth less, since you support wars that were based on lies and bullshit and lead to the deaths of millions and the dumpster fires that are Iraq and Afghanistan today.

The justification was more than "there were terrorists" but they were still all blatant lies.

Palestine-Israel conflict would probably still exist even if there was no Hamas terrorism (it would just make Palestine seem much better).

You admit that without Hamas, the conflict would still exist. You just proved my whole argument, that this is colonialism and unjustified. If there was no Hamas, Israel would have to invent (which they did) Hamas, so they have fingers to point at so that gullible suckers like you would sit there with your thumb in your mouth screaming "KHAMAS IS TERRORIST DO YOU CONDEMN KHAMAS!!!!", instead of seeing that this is all about land and genocide and ethnic cleansing.

What is the point of arguing about this when the ICC is currently investigating Israel? Why not wait for their independent conclusion? Are we that desperate to score political points for the in-group?

Yeah man, the ICC is definitely the holiest and most righteous and trustworthy body out there!
Why are you being surprised that the statistics that orgs around the world are using are coming from groups WITHIN palestine, how else would the stats get out there? If you cherry pick enough, maybe you could justify this massacre, maybe, but sadly that isnt how it works. You cant just look at any source that opposes your viewpoint and call it lies. Besides, somebody else replied and gave you another website, so go there if you want.

Settlers are not terrorists, no. I don't particularly agree with settlers being in the West Bank either. Doesn't mean Hamas is justified or that innocent settlers should be killed.

Therein lies the rub, you don't see settlers as terrorists. You don't see people that show up to houses armed to the teeth with assault rifles that kick the original inhabitants out to make room for themselves as terrorists. You even fucking call them innocent, which is just TOO cute, considering the countless stories of settlers killing innocent Palestinians so they can steal their land.

All in all, you are pro-war and think that the US and Israel can do no wrong, you support Afghanistan, you essentially support Iraq, you probably thought Libya was a good idea too. You are in favour of collective punishment, and you see children as numbers and "collateral damage", you are morally and ethically bankrupt.

All Palestinians have to do is just not fight back, accept their extermination, and let all of their land be stolen, and accept being shipped off to other countries so that Israel can peacefully exterminate their culture and identity!

Hello sir but Palestinians aren't going to be expelled, not are they being exterminated (their population is in fact booming!). It is jews who will be if Israel does not fight back because this is what will happen if a bunch of anti-Semitic Palestinians are allowed to have their way (Hamas charter says that Jews must be exterminated) If Israel wanted to invade and wipe them off the face of the Earth they could have done it easily already. If Hamas stop their bombs and civilian attacks they could prove to the world they are not barbarian third worlders who can only commit violence and rape. Israel would have to stop bombing like they decreased their bombings in the past, just because of political pressure alone. Then the US could mediate the peace agreement (invade Palestine if they break it - stop all support for Israel if they break it). This is not an easy solution, but more feasible than any other, especially yours (none, or worse: Jewish genocide). Do try and make a real argument for why this can't work next time. Thanks!

what world do you live in? 30000 have died (not counting the thousands trapped under rubble) in 3 months. Israel is already in talks with other countries trying to get them to take in the Palestinians, and you better understand that they will not be giving that land back to them.

Look at the 2017 charter, the revised charter, in which they clarify their opponent being ZIONISM, not Jews. If you equate the two, then look at the Jews in NA who are protesting AGAINST Israel, and IN FAVOUR of Palestine.

With or without Hamas, Israel will bomb and massacre Palestinians, it will just be a longer time-scale. All Hamas is, to the Israeli government, is a reason to ramp up aggression and bombings, a reason to bomb schools and hospitals, churches and masjids.

stopping their bombings and decreasing are 2 different things. Israel will DECREASE, but they will NEVER stop bombing. Again, Israel is using Hamas to justify their sped up genocide.

In every single peace deal, land partition, etc. there was the stipulation that Palestinians give up MAJORITY of their lands. They would be accepting that they are essentially locked into Gaza and West Bank, and that Jerusalem is occupied by Israel. Let's say Russia offered to stop the war if Ukraine accepted the annexation of Crimea, Donbas, Donetsk, Mariupol, etc. would you blame Ukrainians for not accepting it? Should Russia be allowed to take all of those cities, simply because they offered to stop the invasion if they did? If that were the case, then there would be nothing stopping the world superpowers from slowly stealing away the entire world for themselves.

what about the Great March of Return? The 2017-2018 protests, in which HUNDREDS of peaceful palestinian protesters were killed by the IDF. Should all protests be violently put down if they interfere with the US agenda?

Also, do you have anything to say about the other bullshit pretenses you made?

Possibly. Possibly not. Your question is irrelevant to this though, since you asked if IDF is killing Hamas, not how many. Hamas has the real numbers, but they do not differentiate between militants and civilians.

Israel is a real military, with a good intelligence agency, with different viewpoints (a democracy), with scrutiny by many international orgs, with a good record. So actually I can do this. But this is besides the point.

Sucks... but Oct 7th wasn't the first attack by Hamas. Their charter says jews should be exterminated after all.

Source? I don't think we know how many Hamas soldiers die, because the only source is... Hamas. Also this ratio is not important. We'd only care about how much Israel does to prevent civilian deaths, not how many militants they kill. Read the definition of proportionality on page 1-6 here. We only care about how much Israel does to prevent civilian deaths. Given the use of Hamas of human shields, and the fact that the IDF gives warning shots and that the way it strikes Hamas buildings is completely correct (use of precision weapons on the target building then the closest buildings because that is where the target flees)

Hello... where is the source for this?

Israel did not "invent" Hamas lol. Another militant group would replace them if they were gone because the Palestinian public supports killing Israelis. Israel gave Hamas a chance when they evicted their Gaza settlers, and Hamas did not take it and just started bombing Israel from there.

Yeah... you got me there with your psychoanalysis. I'm a realpolitik guy. How you got that I hecking love the US from being iffy on Iraq and pro Afghanistan is beyond me. I would rather not have US hegemony, but US hegemony is better than any other country right now. The US needs to intervene more, not less, in Israel so Hamas can be eradicated and peace be reached.

You really got me here... This is why I think Hamas shouldn't hide in civilian buildings so Palestinians don't have to die. This is some great factual argument we're having. Tell me more about what I really believe.

No, but it is the only international authoritative body on war crimes. UN resolutions are meaningless.

Not surprised Hamas doesn't let independent orgs gather data. Doesn't mean their data isn't inflated.

This is just violence buddy. Terrorism has a specific meaning. Why are you so fixated on it? I already condemned the settlers. You're grasping at straws.

I am pro war... against Hamas. This is the only way I see peace in this conflict. If Hamas is gone. I can't wait for this to happen, so Palestinian civilians don't have to be used as human shields.

I don't even know what to say anymore. You see Hamas as this pure evil who will do nothing but lie, and then see the IDF as pure good, only telling the truth. You can't change your viewpoint and cant see any fault. Calling Israel a democracy is fucking hilarious considering the insane protests in Tel Aviv earlier this year, the judicial reform and all. I have provided you with unbiased statistical pages, as have others, you keep asking for sources because you either cant bother yourself to look at the links, or you are so brainwashed you see anything that proves you wrong as being a lie. You see a picture of 2 AKs and a pair of boots and to you, that justifies the leveling of a hospital, so of course you use the same human shield argument over and over again. You only see Palestinians as collateral damage, not as human beings.

Terrorism is violence for political gains, which is the case here with settlers.

If, god forbid, your mother was killed while the IDF was bombing apartment buildings saying they wanted to kill Hamas, would you be satisfied? would you say "oh well they took the appropriate steps, so whatever!"? We all have such obscene privilege to be living far from this, but for some reason you cannot see that. You wouldn't understand unless it happens to you, because you are apathetic.

Nothing will change your mind, you have this godly image of Israel in your head and all the brainwashing and bullshit propaganda that is backed up by ZERO evidence has clearly gotten the better of you. Good luck in the afterlife when you finally face the music

30k have died (not really but whatever) because Hamas uses them as human shields. Let's hate Hamas together for this!

Hahahah guys actually we don't hate jews. We changed our mind in 2017. Now we only hate zionists. Do you listen to yourself? What is there to clarify when the original charters says JEWS should be KILLED? Clearly a PR move.

They wouldn't have any justification for it, because now the only justification is that Hamas uses civilian buildings.

They will stop if Hamas stops lol. Even if they wanted not to, they would have to cave to external and internal pressures. You know, because Israel is a democracy.

Camp David Summit was going to give 100% of Gaza and 91% of West Bank to Palestine. Even parts of Jerusalem iirc. This is not the majority. Are we going by some weird "historical" Palestinian lands some of which were never really owned by the Palestinian state, and which now Jews live on?

Russia was wrong to invade, and they committed war crimes per the ICC. They don't deserve any of Crimea. The analogy does not work in the least. Israel and Palestine are also one country technically. Jews now live on those lands and you want to expel them. They will say no, and you will use force, killing them.

Hamas claimed 50 of the 200 or so people killed by the IDF were their militants. Looks like a great ratio to me!