https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A9lwNFm67M&feature=youtu.be

Not a fan of how the mid is practically flat area again with no woodpiles, a bit of a step backwards since soldiers cant play positioning again and will just have to bomb on the ground. Though I guess it's not as bad as the versions with the smaller wood piles since the elevated bridge seems to make the point closer to the roof of house.

Well, I am going to have to release a b19 by order of THE PERMZILLA so I can look into it. It seemed like there was no good way to get the wood piles back on the bridge with the way the slanted bits worked out and the spacing of it all. I will see what I can do though.

Yeah, not really a fan of the new flat mid, also the planks on the sides leading to the point look really forced and out of place imo, I think the rock or another kind of prop to jump onto mid (for scouts) was already enough, (kinda like gully), you don't need so many ways to get into the point.

Great job with the detailing, the aesthetics are looking better and better every update

please fix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCrg2c3njw8

Already fixed as of b18. That's from b17. Yes I'm aware corrupted clip brushes suck for gameplay.

If anyone's got anything to say about b18, let me know. b19 should be out soon for next week's matches on Logjam, I've got a few small things to fix but by order of THE PERMZILLA they shall be done.

cp_logjam_b19

Pretty much just bugfixes/weird spot fixes for ETF2L S20.

Changes:
Moved the forward spawns on mid a touch to prevent stupid sniping
Fixed some fences on mid having an odd hitbox
Clipped lights high up above spawn at last
Fixed a bug where you could stand on top of the steep slopes on mid without surfing
Fixed a roamer spot above choke that was way OP
Raised spire by a very small amount to fix a weird sniper sightline from window to the logroom HP
Fixed a hole in the map in cave, by the connector to choke
Modified the way lower logroom comes out on mid by a touch to try and fix a sniper sightline (there's no real good way to do it without ruining the flow)
Added the plank piles back on mid, moved the ammo packs back by them
Changed the way respawn times work to try to fix an issue where respawn time lengths got changed

DOWNLOAD: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ikl9ttupklq1yc/cp_logjam_b19.bsp?dl=0

I'm a big fan of the logroom area, it's great for holding and pushing. The wide room and flat floor, makes it easy to spam and jump in and out to the healthpack. Choke and cave are good counterparts to the relative openness of the logroom.

Do you think that by the time cp_logjam_final comes out, it will be used in esea?

edit: cp_logjam_rc#. I'm bad at development stages

It's not even in RC, and you're talking about final version already? Man, you're way into the future

I certainly hope ESEA will pick it up. Granary has been played in these leagues for ages now, and it's always had a worse reputation than a lot of the other maps. Is logjam better than granary? I haven't played it in 6v6 seriously myself so I couldn't tell you. But I want it to be. I want to provide a good map to the community. ETF2L so far has said they like this one in S20 way more than the one in S19. I'm going to probably go to RC for S21 (assuming it gets kept in). If they keep logjam in the rotation I think there's a good chance we can get ESEA to take the map next season, or the season after.

Well, Logjam’s second week in ETF2L is coming to a close.

Did you guys like it better a second time around, more than S19?

What are the biggest issues still?

What areas need the most focus- Mid? 2nd? Last?

Any bugs?

My plan is to make one more beta version in between seasons with changes to kill the last of the issues (whatever they may be) and then go RC afterwards for S21.

i can't stress enough how badly this map is being played right now

mid is still horrific, pushing into it and fighting on it, having height advantage on every single way when holding is insanely bad, trying to make a play on mids is so hard it's not even worth it, might aswell play until the other team make the first move

the map itself feels like you're throwing props out there to just simply fix small issues which don't make sense aesthetically and just feels random

last is still hard to push and seems too easy to defend with no props to play around to dodge spam or w/e

i didn't feel like it had any difference than s19, both seasons the map had bad issues and at this point, if etf2l do the mistake of picking it up again, it will have more issues, i can put my money on it

the whole map needs tweaking, logroom feels awkward, sightlines are still a problem

bugs? how about the fact if you change class in (2nd forward) spawn you die? how about still tons of clipping and textures messed up

man, i feel like i'm bashing this map too hard, but if a map like this got 2 tries in etf2l, idk who to blame, you for pushing an unfinished map, or etf2l for 'not having any options' and settling on an unfinished badly layout map

we've been playing this map since b9 (on official etf2l matches at least, logjam one night cup), if at that point people thought it was bad, ten versions later, it didn't change that much to actually be worth giving a 3rd chance, but it's etf2l so who knows

from your standpoint, coming from almost no experience in 6's, trying to build a map for it and pushing it at such an early stage (b9), where most maps get into circulation when they're atleast rc or late beta, at this point i can't tell if it's still in early beta, if it didn't have pretty detailing i couldn't have told it's late beta

but hey, at least it's prettier

im just gonna say that version numbers actually don't mean anything. as for man hours put into the map I can't comment.

Normally I wouldn't have considered some of the newer versions as new versions, I would've appended something to the name. (_b14f) etc. But people seemed to get frustrated when I did that and complained so I just went to sequential numbering.

There's just no way to win.

This ramp on 2 goes nowhere, kinda misleading to new players

I think the reason it's there is to provides scouts some sort of obstacle to abuse, otherwise the room is just ammomod

IMHO it's not.

Not because you're a bad mapper or something, but because the general layout of granary is unique in each zones of the map, for the best and for the worst.

Your map is like, i'm gonna throw a bridge on mid like badlands and obscure, a spire on 2nd, a lobby between 2nd and last LIKE EVERY EXISTING 5CP MAP and a badlands style last point with the innovation of putting tons of shutter doors everywhere. Oh and dont forget the ramps everywhere to satisfy jumpers like it's the trend on process.

I dont dislike the map that much when i play on it, but it feels déjà-vu way too much to me to be interesting.

I also liked the changes throughout the various updates i'd say. But as it has been said, you wont fix core design issues with props.

My biggest problem with the map as a demo is there only seems to be one way to play the mid.

In matches where I am consistently slower than the opposing demo to mids I am finding it hard to find ways not to be shut down completely. While "get to mid faster" is ultimately the answer, it would be nice to have an option for games where the other demo is just better than me at rollouts, such as Death against Kaidus inLethal Weapon vs. Reason Gaming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89tMNRDT2HYT2HY

.

In other maps there are things you can do, like go to small health on process middle, or use a vally rollout on badlands, or walk to balcony. If the enemy demo consistently gets a sticky on the health in hut in logjam, either stopping me getting it or putting me low enough health that I have to play massively passive on the mid I really don't feel like I have any other options how to play the mid. The rollout through log-room seems to leave you equally as easy to block out regardless if you go upper or lower, and these are slower so there is enough time to see you are there.

truth

What I have in my list to make changes now from S20:

"As far as I can tell with logjam at the moment, I need to tweak houses on mid a bit,
I need to look into the sniping crap on the right side of 2nd more,
and I need to make pushing into last from the upper shutter easier."

By tweak houses on mid, it's more of a nerf houses on mid or think of something else there. They aren't great highground for fighting the point and they can guard all entrances to mid too effectively, which is frankly stupid.

2nd's right side is still a sniper nightmare.

Pushing into last from the upper shutter is a pyro defending's wet dream. I've got an idea to fix it I hope, which may involve removing the shutter as well.

I've also considered raising last's building entirely, such that every exit comes out on 2nd with a bit of height (and modifiying the ground at 2nd to help this) comparatively at 2nd, because the spire can also easily deny every exit.

Other than that I have nothing in my notes on what needs changing. If you've got issues with the map, speak up. I do need to do something serious to mid. Not sure what.

cp_logjam_b20pre2 (pre1 was a test version I showed to a few people)

Here's a preliminary version of b20. More detailing and possible tweaks to come prior to ETF2L S21 (assuming it's still in). I've changed the mid significantly and fixed some other issues. I hope you all like it! I'd love feedback soon.

Special thanks to phi for giving me some examples on detailing some of this stuff. She's the homie!

download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sqrr0jbijcnp6wh/cp_logjam_b20pre2.bsp?dl=0

Changes:
-Modified the upper left (as a defender) entrance into last- it's no longer a shutter and is structured a bit differently.
-Replaced the bridge on mid with a rock structure to limit sight but maintain the feeling of mid.
-Removed the houses on mid.
-Added a structure on mid coming off of the outer hallways to block sight and high ground.
-Smoothed a corner in the sneaky upper exit (per request of Stark)
-Moved the forward spawn at CP2 and CP4 to be underneat the upper exit and modified the pathways to that exit
-Did a bit of detailing, changes all the rock cliff textures.

Note: As this is a preliminary beta, there's going to be some graphical glitches and maybe some odd clipping. Post if you see any of this! Thanks!

Screens:

http://i.imgur.com/aDQOBjf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/D7qcTCu.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ky5Vggm.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/THToOxg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wPOjTTp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/h7sQJpG.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/afugsx3.jpg

Can you make this look like a little saloon please to make mid more interesting and add some life to it?
I believe it'll look great there.

Haha. I see what you did there. I'll see what I can do.

As for the shack- I thought about having a ramp up there but I don't really feel a need to. Scouts have numerous ways to get to it, and soldiers and demos can jump there. I don't see a huge reason for a medic to be there, but I am also not the greatest 6's strategist ever either.

I placed the healthkit where I did so that a demoman coming through choke to the first mid would have to go a bit out of his comfort zone (not too far) to get the HP. I didn't want the HP to be further away to the one side either so the demo could easily rotate to the other direction.

Having the HP right behind cover... eh, I don't like it too much. Maybe it's a better spot, but having cover and the HP seemed like too much of a good deal to me. Maybe it's necessary though.

Another version, another mid :D

Here's my feedback just from going around the map a bit, particularly mid, I think the rest of the map seems ok and the changes were fine.

http://i.imgur.com/9RX4rBs.jpg

That triangle between the rock and the platform is really awkward, you should rework that somehow. The pack locations seem a bit forced and I think 2 large ammo packs so close its not the best decision, I circled possible lcations for both packs, of course Im not sure how this plays out Im just going off what I feel wouild be more natural and not unbalanced.

The huts on the sides look really out of place and forced, and to be honest they make the mid really tight, where before there was a complaint that the mid was too open now it feels too cornered with those 2 houses, to be honest I would remove them entirely and make the entrance from cave kind of a semi open house.

Also the mid itself looks really bland, like cherry said I think some more flair to it would be a great improvement.

Mostly cosmetic feedback, really excited to play this again as mid was just complete aids before and didn't play well at all. Hoping it plays well and makes next etf2l season. The textures on rocks look nice, the double jumping around spire is significantly better, the change on last is welcomed and mid has potential though I don't know how well it'll play yet.

It looks like you can stand on this but you can't.
http://i.imgur.com/kiS9pkY.jpg

This rock needs to be just slightly lower so scouts can double jump on it.
Currently you need to surf up the rock, but the rock isn't as curved as process mid rock,
so solution simply lower it slightly.
http://i.imgur.com/f0jTToV.jpg

I hope splash bugs don't occur here, especially as mid fights are super important. I suggest
curving the edge into the ground.
http://i.imgur.com/uR4Vxh4.jpg

I would like to see the capping boundaries for this cap point, being able to
give yourself better positioning by edging the point as scout while
backcapping the point helps a lot in some circumstances.
http://i.imgur.com/AqJEfFB.jpg

You can walk into this. I'm waiting for the splash bugs to happen.
http://i.imgur.com/uFEmkAf.jpg

Moving this to avoid sniper slight lines good idea but the door always suffered from being
too small and super easy to trap up. Make the spawn more standardly bigger in some way.
http://i.imgur.com/B67o6Q8.jpg

Can't double jump onto the point from here without winger, you should be able to.
http://i.imgur.com/fE75fZr.jpg

As a scout, its very easy to get caught in this spot. You can double jump between the fence
and roof but its very predictable. I suggest moving the fence back slightly so it's not a guaranteed
projectile hit from mid if a scout jumps there.
http://i.imgur.com/u6trdp5.jpg

It sort of looks like you can stand on this but you can't, looks messy (imo)
http://i.imgur.com/YL8VvZ3.jpg

Also waiting for the splash bug to happen, just put right again the wall.
http://i.imgur.com/F5OBAgg.jpg

Misc. cosmetic thing, both sides of mid.
http://i.imgur.com/tjWauGU.jpg

If you jump in here, you can't walk out, need to jump out. Not a big deal though. In second lobby.
http://i.imgur.com/msBODtx.jpg

You can't jump in here as a solly any more, so make it you so you
can jump in there, or move the support beam and lights into the roof.
http://i.imgur.com/qiEnVcF.jpg

I don't know if there's any point in this or its simply cosmetic but creates the opportunity for
splash bugs and looks just messy (imo). My suggestion would make it look like you'd expect.
http://i.imgur.com/f2dtYaL.jpg

Thanks so much for all of that! It's much appreciated. Most of that I can take care of for the real b20.

With regards to a few of them:

http://i.imgur.com/AqJEfFB.jpg

I have cap boarders on in hammer- something must be preventing them from compiling. Probably overlays and displacements not getting along. I'll fix it.

http://i.imgur.com/F5OBAgg.jpg

So there's totally supposed to be a support pillar there. Where the fuck did it go?

http://i.imgur.com/tjWauGU.jpg

This is a bit of an issue with rendering b/t 2nd and mid that I've yet to figure out how to fix. I think I can get to it, but it's always been a bit hard.

Also, a few things that have been found and sent to me on steam:
-Pretty much every new rock can have stickies hidden in it (weird collision models...)
-Stairs at 2nd need block bullets so soldiers stop crying
-Roamer spots on cliffs that don't make sense at 2nd
-Small roamer spots at the top of the sharply angled roof on mid
-Sniper sightline from choke to the new corridor in last needs to be looked at
-Sightline from the new corridor in last to the spawnroom

Regarding the stripes on mid- they do not show up because you have overlays turned off. I played on the map the other night and saw them. I can use something like boards instead that everyone can see.

b20 official coming soon- I've got a lot of work to do.