.

Before people say "BUT CSGO AND DOTA 2 GET DDoS's TOO" it is totally different. Valve care about those games so say for example an important Dota 2 game is being DDoS'd, the game is paused and the match time and locations are saved. So the game can resume when its fixed (valve also put effort into preventing DDoS attacks into those games cause they are popular and bring in money) TF2 does not have this feature and right now and if a player is getting DDoS'd all you can do is pause and get a merc. This was fine until saloon.tf was invented and real money is now involved in a competitive game that isn't ready for that. I'm sorry to say this but I fear saloon.tf could ruin competitive TF2 unless valve do something about it (which they won't)

When real money (and people are betting a lot) is involved it no longer becomes "just a game". Saloon.tf is not going to work because TF2 is not supported well enough by valve and we have no anti DDoS measures.

Ban ddosers from Valve sponsored tournaments

Didn't this happen ages ago? Like games were starting to get ddos'd so prem official servers started to get hidden (as in you couldn't go onto steam friends right click them and view game info). Can't we just go back to doing that if this is actually happening now?

I have tried talking to the head admin of ETF2L on the matter and this is his view on things.

sheepy | Tf2Pickup.net: you need to consider this
sheepy | Tf2Pickup.net: when a lot of money is on the line it no longer becomes just a game
sheepy | Tf2Pickup.net: and people will abuse that
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: idk what u want me to do here
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: and i think you are making a bigger deal out of it as it is
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: because you are too involved
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: go offline in steam
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: and that prevents a whole lot (this is bullshit)
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: get ddos'd
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: replug your router and hope for the best
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: as i said if someone really wants to ddos u
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: he will do it (and this is why Saloon.tf could ruin TF2.)

sheepy | Tf2Pickup.net: if ddosing continues to happen in prem games
sheepy | Tf2Pickup.net: saloon.tf needs to be banned
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: yeah sure
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: we ban saloon
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: and that will totally fix that
Sonny Black | ETF2L.org: no one will bet anymore (he is saying this sarcastically but he doesn't seem to know what he is talking about. People are betting on tf2 because there is a well made site that makes it easy. Before the site was made the only betting was between friends and it was usually just for a few hats. If the site is banned then people will not be betting big money on a game that isn't ready for a real life money betting site.)
sheepy | Tf2Pickup.net: yes
sheepy | Tf2Pickup.net: If prem games continue to be DDoS'd then Saloon.tf should be shut down.

It is the player's own responsibility to keep their IP private hard to obtain.

As far as the server goes, it shouldn't be too hard to keep it secret. Have everyone get a private profile/go offline on Steam for the match so that a hacker can't get the server IP through Steam, and only give the IP to trusted people.

Can't DDOS without an IP
http://play.esea.net/index.php?s=forums&d=topic&id=627837

I'm not an expert but I don't think this will prevent certain players from getting DDoS'd. It might protect the server but this won't protect individuals from getting DDoS'd.

Resetting your router does NOT stop a Ddos attack. Unless you have a dynamic IP, you're pretty much screwed for as long as the attacker wants to do it.

what? So you are saying everyone who plays in a high level TF2 game from now on has to learn to keep their IP private and that will fix the ddosing? Or we could just you know, not have betting on a game that isn't ready for betting.

How would you shut down saloon.tf anyway?

Thinking that shutting down saloon.tf will stop the people being ddos'd is fucking retarded. It was being done before saloon.tf already.

Saloon wouldn't need to be shut down. You could have it so games from certain leagues would no longer be added. CSGL does that when it starts to get out of hand, or if the league asks them not to put up their games.

I have your IP address. You've scrimmed on my server, and your connection is in my server logs. It's not hypothetical, I actually have your IP. And that's somehow your fault for failing to protect it? Get real dude. Seriously, blaming the player for getting DDOS'd is ridiculous in TF2.

https://www.skial.com/sourcebans/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=xxBOBSAGET_&advType=name

I don't know who this guy is, but he was griefing in a SKIAL pub in 2013, so his IP is on a database you can search by SteamID. You can just grab it. It's not even a permanent ban, but his IP is still up there.

Easy dont pay the domain bills and it goes poof , Or just delete all of the HTML, killing a site is quite easy

csgo has 10x worse ddosing problems, and it is the general consensus that lounge is worth having despite the ddosing.

Or we could just you know, use basic internet security practices and have betting to spark more interest in our game.
That is really the only way to prevent DDOS other than yes - killing off the betting. Abstinence is the answer kids.

but that's victim blaming!!!!!!! /s

@smobo, yes it is his fault for not protecting his ip. do you leave your doors unlocked because it's a would-be theif's responsibility to follow the law? you're the one the needs to get real.

Cherry has the power. Its up to him. I don't think we should just close it now however what i'm saying is if prem games are being DDoS'd constantly I think it needs to be shut down.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves... One player might have been ddos'd, and if so saloon was possibly the reason why.

lets get full hooli post going on

what if i don't have locks on my door? what if the nearest locksmith is 300 miles away?

This is actually a real issue that needs to get solved now that NA doesn't have a LAN anymore. Isn't there software that can mask an IP address but not cause a player to lag?

Why on hell would you shut down a community website because some poor fucker can't handle losing a bet, you're actually just giving him importance he doesn't deserve.

What you need is harsher punishments for people caught red handed, ex: I have seen plenty players still betting on their own games despite it being clear in saloon rules (and I think it was also added to etf2l rules) that you can't bet on yourself, just apply harsh bans (same as cheating) to people found betting on their own games or caught manipulating bets/games, but actually apply them, not only add to the rules and then do nothing about it. .

As for ddos itself, as sonny black said, if someone wants to dos you he will be able to do it no matter what, even without saloon, it has happened before, I knew this cunt in the Portuguese community that ddosed (or so he said) a etf2l final a couple years ago (just for the lols he said), recently he was caught cheating and got banned, my point is, people who ddoss games for losing bets are the same kind of people that would go to the length of cheating in a league, it's all the same kind of scum and the least importance you give them the better. Just keep things going as usual but enforce hard punishments if people are found, nothing else you can do about it.

sorry sheepy, but until u guys have concrete proof, I dont think it's plausible to take any kind of action

i think you're jumping to conclusions & besides that shutting down saloon.tf isn't a good solution anyway, imo betting is really good for the community

00:13 - Alfie | TF2Pickup.net: alle u got quintosh to ddos scrab im calling it
00:13 - Alfie | TF2Pickup.net: http://cdn.steamcommunity.com/economy/emoticon/B1
00:13 - fnx alle: yes
00:14 - Alfie | TF2Pickup.net: sending to sonny black
00:14 - fnx alle: dont report plz

I'll chime in here on how to find out who launched a DDoS attack.
First there is a big difference between a DDoS and a DoS. DDoS is a distributed denial of service attack. Distributed because there's usually thousands of botnets sending traffic to your IP address and flooding your network pipe. Even if you had all of their IP's none of them are usually your attackers.

Most routers don't log every single packet that flows through your router either, its not feasible to store hundreds of gigs worth of logs on a little router.
So TL:DR you won't find out who attacked you, because typically its a black hat service that people pay for in bitcoins.

Now if a server gets a DDoS attack, it can be moved over to a DDoS filtering service. This can add 15-20ms of latency to everyone's connection but it does a good job of thwarting the attack.

A player who is attacked often can use a VPN to protect their IP address. VyprVPN has a service meant for eSports with DDoS protection. Unfortunately it does increase the cost of entry for playing in matches.

Although I'm biased about saloon.tf since we sponsor them, shutting them down is not the solution.

I'm not saying to shut down saloon.tf right now. I am just saying to look out this season for people ddosing to win real life money in later more important games this season. I am trying to say that if important prem games with lots of bets up are getting (ddos'd/dos'd whatever its called) it might be a good idea to shut down saloon.tf until we find a solution to it. I made this thread basically to make people aware that this can and may happen in top prem games. I have tf2's best interests at heart and want people to be careful for the rest of their prem games so they don't end up like scrab.

I would say its more than possibly. If there isn't money on the line people really don't have a good reason to ddos games. When there is like 5 buds on the line people are gonna make a real effort to make sure their team wins.

You are right about IPs being very hard to hide since they are logged on basically every server, but that doesn't mean players should ignore basic safety measures to weed out the easiest exploits to get a user's IP.

1. Don't use IRC without protection (VERY important):
When you join a channel in most IRC servers, your IP can be grabbed with minimal effort. How to protect yourself differs from server to server, use google. A bouncer is the best protection.

2. Don't accept random skype/steam calls. Steam/skype voice calls are P2P so they can get your IP from this.

3. Don't click fishy links. Could be an IP grabber.

Just a little bit of common sense will protect you from most vulnerabilities, having to do further than basic efforts scares away most script kiddies.

For preventing server ddoses:

1. Go offline on steam (otherwise the IP will be shown in "view game info") BEFORE joining a server.
2. Don't use serveme.tf servers. They are great, but they are also not protected.
3. Server cvar "hide_server 1" so it doesn't show up in the server browser.

5 buds =~ $33/£21/€30

Sheepy, this isn't the first time DDoS's have happened in league matches. ESEA-O and IM finals have a history of being DDoS'd.

It's happened to you now and that's why you care, not because "it's going to kill tf2".