used to play on this team, they're really dedicated yo

Not sure this is the best idea. When you play a team in a different division they'll beat you in DM on every single class and get away with stuff that a team of equal level could not get away with. For example, they might push at a time that is unappropriate, or win a fight on the flank that they shouldn't.

I suggest you find a partner team at your own skill level.

Mr Slin I always have disagreed with that statement. If the other team plays more aggressive and push when they shouldn't the team should learn to act upon that and win every time. Just because they have a better DM/ game sense doesn't mean an open team won't learn or pick a thing up.

Our DM isn't the issue though, we've played low IM teams and we are pretty equal in terms of straight DM, we want to improve other aspects of play that more experienced eyes will be able to help us with.

This post actually makes a lot of sense. This is a very good way to spend your time training to get better, there is a lot to be learned from scrimming teams at a higher level then and reviewing the demo as a pose to scrimming same level teams. + fraged, a post that actually makes a shred of sense compared to that "feelings thread" or "girlfriend" thread.

Slin is right. Even if you don't individually have worse DM you'll get crushed because the IM team will be focusing much better.

Also, I don't think it's fair to ask 30 minutes of a team during scrim time when you could just ask them to go over a STV outside of scrim time and probably learn more.

request a demo review from bl4nk, he's a bro he'll do it

A higher level team may beat a lower team DM wise. However their positioning and coordination on pushes is something a lower level team can try to mimic after they get their DM up to par.

all i'm saying is, if you get straight up rolled, there are so many things going wrong on your end that you won't even know where to begin improving. the other team literally will beat you in all aspects of your game. it's not as helpful as it is to play a team of a similar level and say "oh ok we need to work on our pushes", etc. work on one aspect of your game at a time.

There are IM level teams that get destroyed by IM level teams. What does that boil down to? DM or team chemistry? is DM the only thing that seperates a winning team from a loosing team?

?? "The other team literally will beat you in all aspects of your game"

includes more than just DM. mike brought up one which is focus fire. calls, organization, literally everything. you're not going to learn anything if you get rolled, and that's why they separate the league into divisions.

Your correct in regards to a low team in open trying to learn off of a good IM team. However I think if a top ten open team was trying to learn off of a high IM team they would place a lot better in the long run.

I think that they could learn plenty from playing better caliber IM teams. Getting rolled may not seem like it teaches you much, but it definitely encourages you to try harder, which in turn makes you a better team. They'll be forced to come up with better strats, become better at DM, etc. The immediate results will not be that noticeable against the better IM teams they're playing, but they'll probably be leaps and bounds ahead of the teams that used to be on or around their level of play.

There is a reason the lower level invite teams become so much better than the top level IM teams so quickly, it's because they are playing much more difficult teams, and they're forced to become better.

Good luck!

I think they could probably judge for themselves whether or not they learn anything if an IM team takes up their offer and they give it a try, maybe? Why is Slin so opposed to this idea that doesn't affect him at all?

haha you guys are making it sound like i'm trying to be a bad person and discouraging them from making choices.

they're free to do whatever they want, i'm just trying to help. And i'm saying, for their time spent, perhaps its better not to get rolled. but ultimately it's their time i'm just stating an opinion. if they can find an IM team willing to play them then good for them.

I totally respect your opinion, just telling you how I view it. you have been IM, I haven't.

There are a few things you need to understand when you play a team significantly better than your own:

-One scrim of it is kind of entertaining, a lot of it over an extended period of time gets real old real quick
-Rounds will consist mainly of short, futile midfights and last holds with full uber disadvantage
-The stress level will increase which tends to spark nasty arguments and general negativity even among teams that really enjoy playing together

I think Slin is right and wrong. He's right that you don't learn anything from just getting steamrolled. High IM teams are going to get away with things against you that you will not be able to get away with against your opponents in open. And even if you do manage to come up with solid counters for their sloppy play, at the end of the day all you have managed to do is learn how to deal with sloppy play.

Now if you manage to find a high level team that will steamroll you and then sit in mumble with you and watch the STV (STVs are imperative) and give you advice, that's a different story. That's a long-term, whole-team mentor program, and if there were a shortcut to getting good at tf2 (there isn't) it would be that. They can point out specific things that your team is doing at mid or while defending last that need improvement.

If you want to get steamrolled, my advice would be to get steamrolled by a team that will mentor you as well.

because its unrealistic in every way possible

a demo review from a higher level player whether its IM or Invite will do wonders for your team overall, instead of just getting straight smashed dm wise from a good IM team, you cant pick apart strats or positioning when a good team is just destroying you, there is no sugarcoating this at all

@ OP, if your team is struggling and you cant really pinpoint what the problem is, request a demo review of a good scrim and/or match from PYYYYOUR or bl4nk, they'd be able to give tons of feedback on what problems you might be facing as a team whether its dm, focusing targets, pushes, holds etc you'll be able to break it down much more than just getting straight outplayed on every position from a better team.

There is always something worth learning from people better than you, no matter how much better they are than you DM wise or strat wise.

ok you're just retarded, i really don't even know why im posting again let me simplify this for you. there is a ton of OBVIOUS factors that come into play when playing a better team but first and foremost the DM aspect will just make everything else not even matter.

what don't you get about that? positioning and strats will not even be present when you just get absolutely crushed in a mid fight and the other team rolls to last, also he is requesting to play an IM team, some IM teams (at least higher up ones) scrim invite teams on a regular basis, the dm aspect of this is just a night and day difference.

Are you saying there is nothing to learn from the way top players DM? Every top player DM's differently from one another, Wether it be how they line their shots up or how they manage to stay alive, that all contributes toward DM, YZ50, clockwork and Cyzer all DM differently.

#23 If you want to learn how top players DM you can just play DM mod. The point is that if they rape you on mid they can have 3 players do some retarded mackey-esque play and hide, and get away with it every time. It's not something to learn from, because it doesn't work if you can't heavily outDM your opponent.

slin is right about how getting rolled tends to not teach much, but he does underestimate the overlap between open and IM

the difference between high open and low IM is negligible, as is the difference between high open and mid IM by the end of the season

?? Dope wolf are you serious lol you're changing what the OP said, and you're changing what I said.

I am saying, for the time spent from BOTH teams involved, scrimming a team in a different division is not worth it. He's asking for "an IM team or above" and I doubt any IM or invite team would want to participate in this. If his team is high open they might be able to scrim low IM teams, but past that this isn't a good use of time, and I was trying to let them know this up front.

You only get a couple hours per day to scrim with your team against other teams. Spend that time wisely. Then, take time outside of scrims to review demos. This is the most productive thing to do, and spending your limited time getting rolled by an invite team won't be as effective.

This guy gets what I meant. I understand that we'd get rolled at the beginning but that's the whole point.

Slin I appreciate the concern, no one wants to see another team die, but to be frank Slin you don't know my team, and you don't know how we respond to pressure. We want to play a team incredibly solid that can stomp us, on a regular basis. Emphasis on regular, I believe what you say is true when it's a oneoff occasion. However when you play with someone willing to treat you seriously (even if it just makes them beat you harder) on a consistent basis, you can improve dramatically.

To any people looking at this thread considering it, we aren't the type of guys to get discouraged and be done with this in a week.

We are dedicated, we are improving, we want your help.

Of course it won't be any help to the team playing against us, that why I posted this to the mentor thread, if I really wanted to play versus an IM team I could just go to IRC and find one. But this is about getting a mentor team, my team just has different needs than the standard STV review.

getting rolled or "rizzyraped" is a waste of time

The fastest way to get better at something is by losing. I've never seen anything where this is not the case.