It's pretty hard to measure and calculate this information on my own so I was wondering if any other statistic nuts/long-time medics could take the time to tell me exactly how uber splitting affects the rate of uber draining. It's kind of hard to explain these scenarios, but I'll try my best. Thanks for your patience.
here are some pretty basic stats I'll establish just to make this thread easier to communicate in
let's say a "fat" uber drains at 100% rate. An uber split across 2 players would be 150% rate, and 3 players would be 225%.
Does the game just count how many different players you've touched during an uber and drain at the rate dictated by that number, or does it constantly check the current number of ubered players and modify the drain rate throughout the uber? And if you flash someone, then return to them later after their flash wears off, do they count as a third uber recipient and bring the rate to 225% or does the game remember that they've been ubered before?
that seems kind of hard to read, so to provide an example let's take a hypothetical scenario: If you pop on your pocket, flash the roamer, and return to your pocket, when the flash wears off of the roamer, does your uber continue draining at 150%? If so, putting the beam back on the roamer later on would have no downside, right? Also what if instead you give the beam to a third player? Does your uber now drain at 225% even though you never had more than 2 people simultaneously ubered?
It's pretty hard to measure and calculate this information on my own so I was wondering if any other statistic nuts/long-time medics could take the time to tell me exactly how uber splitting affects the rate of uber draining. It's kind of hard to explain these scenarios, but I'll try my best. Thanks for your patience.
here are some pretty basic stats I'll establish just to make this thread easier to communicate in
let's say a "fat" uber drains at 100% rate. An uber split across 2 players would be 150% rate, and 3 players would be 225%.
Does the game just count how many different players you've touched during an uber and drain at the rate dictated by that number, or does it constantly check the current number of ubered players and modify the drain rate throughout the uber? And if you flash someone, then return to them later after their flash wears off, do they count as a third uber recipient and bring the rate to 225% or does the game remember that they've been ubered before?
that seems kind of hard to read, so to provide an example let's take a hypothetical scenario: If you pop on your pocket, flash the roamer, and return to your pocket, when the flash wears off of the roamer, does your uber continue draining at 150%? If so, putting the beam back on the roamer later on would have no downside, right? Also what if instead you give the beam to a third player? Does your uber now drain at 225% even though you never had more than 2 people simultaneously ubered?
The game determines how many people are under you uber effect to calculate uber drain. So, if you flash 1 person and keep it on your pocket, it will drain at 150% UNTIL the roamer losses the uber, where it then reverts to 100% drain. same for 3 people, flash 3 people 225% drain. Drop 1 person, uber wears off on them, 150% drain, and so on.
The game determines how many people are under you uber effect to calculate uber drain. So, if you flash 1 person and keep it on your pocket, it will drain at 150% UNTIL the roamer losses the uber, where it then reverts to 100% drain. same for 3 people, flash 3 people 225% drain. Drop 1 person, uber wears off on them, 150% drain, and so on.
One misconception you have is that 3 players = 225%. It's actually 200% (4=250%, 5=300%, etc).
TF2 constantly checks throughout the uber to find the drain rate -- once a flashed player is no longer ubered, your drain rate returns to normal. Specifically, the game checks for the number of players that are flashing and you're not currently healing (note: your drain rate increases if you uber 1 person then break the beam as if you had just flashed someone). In your hypothetical situations, the drain rate is 100% when you pop on the pocket, 150% for 1s while the roamer is flashed, then 100% after. If you give the beam to a third player, it increases to 150% for their flash (or 200% if the roamer is still flashing) then goes back to 100% once no-one is flashed.
Perhaps an easier way to look at it is that you have 8 seconds of uber + 1 second flashing at 0%, and every time you flash you lose 0.5s.
Here are some more details:
SigmaFun facts:
1. The uber drain rate is 12.5%/s while you have 1 target ubered and are connected to him.
2. For each player who is flashed as a result of your uber, the drain rate increases by 6.25%/s (a flash lasts 1s). So, 18.75% with 2 players ubered (1 connected, 1 flashed), 25% with 3 players ubered, etc.
3. When you hit 0% uber, you and your current target are flashed for 1s.
My wording is specific here for a reason: these are some things I didn't realize until I went tic-by-tic in a demo of me ubering different patterns of bots in spawn. The meaningful in game consequences are:
1. If you uber and your pocket jumps out of heal beam range, even if you do not flash anyone else, your drain rate increases to 18.75%/s for 1 second or until you reconnect with him. You get longer ubers if you're connected the entire time, but since that's often impractical, the result is that you have a half-cost flash when your pocket jumps (since you'll be draining faster anyways -- the only penalty is when you switch back and whoever you flashed is causing your drain to increase).
2. Right before you hit 0%, you have a free flash. Why? Examine:
-You have 5% remaining before your uber is out, with one target ubered.
-You switch targets. Your original target is now flashing for 1s, and your drain rate is at 18.75%/s.
-Before you hit 0%, you attach to another target. Due to fact 3 above, you and your new target and now flashing for 1s.
Hence, you can have an 8s uber on 1 target, then 1s with 2 players ubered right at the end. From what I've seen, almost all experienced medics do a flash right at the end of their uber, but I don't think many consciously realize why it's a good idea (I had the habit before I went and found these results).
In case anyone cares, the 3 facts above also apply to the kritz drain rate. You don't get flashes with kritz (hence fact 3 is kind of a moot point), but you still have that increased drain as a result of switching (bleh). Still well worth it to switch a kritz though, since typically you shoot 1-2 crit stickies, then 15 scouts and 22 soldiers are on your head and a crit rocket is the right tool for the job.
One misconception you have is that 3 players = 225%. It's actually 200% (4=250%, 5=300%, etc).
TF2 constantly checks throughout the uber to find the drain rate -- once a flashed player is no longer ubered, your drain rate returns to normal. Specifically, the game checks for the number of players that are flashing and you're not currently healing (note: your drain rate increases if you uber 1 person then break the beam as if you had just flashed someone). In your hypothetical situations, the drain rate is 100% when you pop on the pocket, 150% for 1s while the roamer is flashed, then 100% after. If you give the beam to a third player, it increases to 150% for their flash (or 200% if the roamer is still flashing) then goes back to 100% once no-one is flashed.
Perhaps an easier way to look at it is that you have 8 seconds of uber + 1 second flashing at 0%, and every time you flash you lose 0.5s.
Here are some more details:
[quote=Sigma]Fun facts:
1. The uber drain rate is 12.5%/s while you have 1 target ubered and are connected to him.
2. For each player who is flashed as a result of your uber, the drain rate increases by 6.25%/s (a flash lasts 1s). So, 18.75% with 2 players ubered (1 connected, 1 flashed), 25% with 3 players ubered, etc.
3. When you hit 0% uber, you and your current target are flashed for 1s.
My wording is specific here for a reason: these are some things I didn't realize until I went tic-by-tic in a demo of me ubering different patterns of bots in spawn. The meaningful in game consequences are:
1. If you uber and your pocket jumps out of heal beam range, even if you do not flash anyone else, your drain rate increases to 18.75%/s for 1 second or until you reconnect with him. You get longer ubers if you're connected the entire time, but since that's often impractical, the result is that you have a half-cost flash when your pocket jumps (since you'll be draining faster anyways -- the only penalty is when you switch back and whoever you flashed is causing your drain to increase).
2. Right before you hit 0%, you have a free flash. Why? Examine:
-You have 5% remaining before your uber is out, with one target ubered.
-You switch targets. Your original target is now flashing for 1s, and your drain rate is at 18.75%/s.
-Before you hit 0%, you attach to another target. Due to fact 3 above, you and your new target and now flashing for 1s.
Hence, you can have an 8s uber on 1 target, then 1s with 2 players ubered right at the end. From what I've seen, almost all experienced medics do a flash right at the end of their uber, but I don't think many consciously realize why it's a good idea (I had the habit before I went and found these results).
In case anyone cares, the 3 facts above also apply to the kritz drain rate. You don't get flashes with kritz (hence fact 3 is kind of a moot point), but you still have that increased drain as a result of switching (bleh). Still well worth it to switch a kritz though, since typically you shoot 1-2 crit stickies, then 15 scouts and 22 soldiers are on your head and a crit rocket is the right tool for the job.[/quote]
sigma saves the day. thank you, I now understand 100%
thanks for clearing up my misconception, too. I thought it was like n(1.5) per heal target rather than n+50% per heal target.
sigma saves the day. thank you, I now understand 100%
thanks for clearing up my misconception, too. I thought it was like n(1.5) per heal target rather than n+50% per heal target.
Sigma, isn't your math a bit flawed? I've always estimated that each person you flash loses you approx 1 second of uber. Above, you're saying that you lose approx 0.5 seconds per flash. But in your quoted section, you said that ubering 3 players costs you 25%/second, resulting in a 4 second uber. That looks closer to 1 second per player rather than 0.5 seconds per player.
Sigma, isn't your math a bit flawed? I've always estimated that each person you flash loses you approx 1 second of uber. Above, you're saying that you lose approx 0.5 seconds per flash. But in your quoted section, you said that ubering 3 players costs you 25%/second, resulting in a 4 second uber. That looks closer to 1 second per player rather than 0.5 seconds per player.
You lose 0.5s for a single flash. That is to say, if you switch targets once then switch back, if you have 0 delay between breaking your beam and reattaching you lose 0.5s (which you don't, so in practice flashes cost more like 0.6s). If you're keeping 3 players fully ubered the entire time, then you're doing 8 flashes.
You lose 0.5s for a single flash. That is to say, if you switch targets once then switch back, if you have 0 delay between breaking your beam and reattaching you lose 0.5s (which you don't, so in practice flashes cost more like 0.6s). If you're keeping 3 players fully ubered the entire time, then you're doing 8 flashes.
Aha cool thanks. You should see me counting on my fingers to find out how keeping 3 people ubered takes 8 flashes. -_-
Aha cool thanks. You should see me counting on my fingers to find out how keeping 3 people ubered takes 8 flashes. -_-
[quote=Sigma][img]http://i.imgur.com/UmpOi.gif[/img][/quote]
A bit off-topic, but I remember that you could rapidly switch between medigun and another weapon to make uber last about 2 or 3 seconds longer on yourself as a medic. Pretty impractical, considering you can't heal anyone during this time and you're vulnerable to damage while the medigun isn't equipped. I've used it in a useful situation maybe once or twice in my entire time playing.
I dunno if this was fixed or not within the year of me not playing. ;o
A bit off-topic, but I remember that you could rapidly switch between medigun and another weapon to make uber last about 2 or 3 seconds longer on yourself as a medic. Pretty impractical, considering you can't heal anyone during this time and you're vulnerable to damage while the medigun isn't equipped. I've used it in a useful situation maybe once or twice in my entire time playing.
I dunno if this was fixed or not within the year of me not playing. ;o
TheFragileI dunno if this was fixed or not within the year of me not playing. ;o
I think that's a result of the "flashing" effect, where the uber lasts for a bit after you aren't ubered anymore.
When you switch your medigun off, I think it slows down the uber drain; so, if you switch off until your "flash" runs out, then switch back, you could potentially extend your self-uber. Right?
[quote=TheFragile]I dunno if this was fixed or not within the year of me not playing. ;o[/quote]
I think that's a result of the "flashing" effect, where the uber lasts for a bit after you aren't ubered anymore.
When you switch your medigun off, I think it slows down the uber drain; so, if you switch off until your "flash" runs out, then switch back, you could potentially extend your self-uber. Right?
synchroTheFragileI dunno if this was fixed or not within the year of me not playing. ;o
I think that's a result of the "flashing" effect, where the uber lasts for a bit after you aren't ubered anymore.
When you switch your medigun off, I think it slows down the uber drain; so, if you switch off until your "flash" runs out, then switch back, you could potentially extend your uber. Right?
I admit that I haven't checked if flashing a bunch of people then switching weapons slows the drain rate, but I don't think it does anymore. At most, it might reset multiple flashes to the base drain rate, but I doubt it. Either way, it's not very practical because you almost always need to be ubered yourself while flashing, and the weapon switch + switch back delay is more than enough time for someone to react and shoot you. In the past (up until early 2008 iirc) your uber would just not drain at all if you switched off your medigun, so you could keep someone ubered for like 30s, but the medic wouldn't be ubered because you lose uber instantly and don't flash when you switch weapons (and thus it was rarely useful).
[quote=synchro][quote=TheFragile]I dunno if this was fixed or not within the year of me not playing. ;o[/quote]
I think that's a result of the "flashing" effect, where the uber lasts for a bit after you aren't ubered anymore.
When you switch your medigun off, I think it slows down the uber drain; so, if you switch off until your "flash" runs out, then switch back, you could potentially extend your uber. Right?[/quote]
I admit that I haven't checked if flashing a bunch of people then switching weapons slows the drain rate, but I don't think it does anymore. At most, it might reset multiple flashes to the base drain rate, but I doubt it. Either way, it's not very practical because you almost always need to be ubered yourself while flashing, and the weapon switch + switch back delay is more than enough time for someone to react and shoot you. In the past (up until early 2008 iirc) your uber would just not drain at all if you switched off your medigun, so you could keep someone ubered for like 30s, but the medic wouldn't be ubered because you lose uber instantly and don't flash when you switch weapons (and thus it was rarely useful).
synchroTheFragileI dunno if this was fixed or not within the year of me not playing. ;o
I think that's a result of the "flashing" effect, where the uber lasts for a bit after you aren't ubered anymore.When you switch your medigun off, I think it slows down the uber drain; so, if you switch off until your "flash" runs out, then switch back, you could potentially extend your self-uber. Right?
I specifically looked at when it reached 0%, not when the flashing effect actually ended. I timed it and it definitely lasted longer. If I recall right, uber doesn't slow down whatsoever with different weapon out, but I think it stops for like .2 seconds or something minute when the actual weapon switch occurs.
[quote=synchro][quote=TheFragile]I dunno if this was fixed or not within the year of me not playing. ;o[/quote] I think that's a result of the "flashing" effect, where the uber lasts for a bit after you aren't ubered anymore.When you switch your medigun off, I think it slows down the uber drain; so, if you switch off until your "flash" runs out, then switch back, you could potentially extend your self-uber. Right?[/quote]
I specifically looked at when it reached 0%, not when the flashing effect actually ended. I timed it and it definitely lasted longer. If I recall right, uber doesn't slow down whatsoever with different weapon out, but I think it stops for like .2 seconds or something minute when the actual weapon switch occurs.
SigmaI admit that I haven't checked if flashing a bunch of people then switching weapons slows the drain rate, but I don't think it does anymore. At most, it might reset multiple flashes to the base drain rate, but I doubt it. Either way, it's not very practical because you almost always need to be ubered yourself while flashing, and the weapon switch + switch back delay is more than enough time for someone to react and shoot you. In the past (up until early 2008 iirc) your uber would just not drain at all if you switched off your medigun, so you could keep someone ubered for like 30s, but the medic wouldn't be ubered because you lose uber instantly and don't flash when you switch weapons (and thus it was rarely useful).
I think you guys might be misunderstanding what I said. The rapid weapon switches don't slow down the uber drain rate, it stops it extremely briefly. And yes, back in early 2008, you could store whatever uber you had left over by switching weapons and then bringing out the medigun whenever you wanted.
Again, I agree that it's not practical almost ever. I found it useful only in situations where I was forced to uber, then the guy who forced me to uber ends up dying instantly and perhaps the rest of their team is dead or just spawned. There's very few situations where it could be used, and it probably didn't make a difference even when it could be used. It was just a fun fact though I guess, haha.
[quote=Sigma]I admit that I haven't checked if flashing a bunch of people then switching weapons slows the drain rate, but I don't think it does anymore. At most, it might reset multiple flashes to the base drain rate, but I doubt it. Either way, it's not very practical because you almost always need to be ubered yourself while flashing, and the weapon switch + switch back delay is more than enough time for someone to react and shoot you. In the past (up until early 2008 iirc) your uber would just not drain at all if you switched off your medigun, so you could keep someone ubered for like 30s, but the medic wouldn't be ubered because you lose uber instantly and don't flash when you switch weapons (and thus it was rarely useful).[/quote]
I think you guys might be misunderstanding what I said. The rapid weapon switches don't slow down the uber drain rate, it [b]stops[/b] it extremely briefly. And yes, back in early 2008, you could store whatever uber you had left over by switching weapons and then bringing out the medigun whenever you wanted.
Again, I agree that it's not practical almost ever. I found it useful only in situations where I was forced to uber, then the guy who forced me to uber ends up dying instantly and perhaps the rest of their team is dead or just spawned. There's very few situations where it could be used, and it probably didn't make a difference even when it could be used. It was just a fun fact though I guess, haha.
Yeah, I thought you were talking about the old thing where you could stop it entirely. Didn't even know that it paused during weapon switch, not sure if that still happens.
Yeah, I thought you were talking about the old thing where you could stop it entirely. Didn't even know that it paused during weapon switch, not sure if that still happens.
I remember this doing my head in listening to Jestr explaining it on Friendly Fire ages ago, but the community tf2 forum with the equation really helped explain it. Sigma has explained it well enough anyway.
I remember this doing my head in listening to Jestr explaining it on Friendly Fire ages ago, but the community tf2 forum with the equation really helped explain it. Sigma has explained it well enough anyway.
sigma is an uber-nerd.
see what I did there?
sigma is an uber-nerd.
see what I did there?