Don't. There's a reason Euros are allowing Gunboats next season.

I think it's a great tool for a lot of last pushes/holds (i.e. badlands) because there's just not a whole lot of jumping to be done, so you might as well have the extra damage output.

Yeah but then you're slower on the push out

But why do roamers like harbleu still use it full time?

I think it's map and situation specific. Do what works best for your team!

k i just loaded up the last mixup match of s13 week 1 mixup vs xensity and harb is running gunboats full time. the first loadout he shoots 4 rockets into the ground so that he can equalize. then after the death it looks like hes running gunboats full time to me.

so you may want to go check your facts.

just trust me on this one beef. everyones using gunboats in ESEA.

i wasnt trying to argue.

but it must've been last season when harbleu used shotgun, and s11 when wonderwall did too

but i might be wrong idk lol

gunboats for midfights. you can change to shotgun afterwards depending on map.

ive always been big on shotgun roamer. i would play the way you feel is most effective. people using gunboats fulltime in ESEA doesnt exactly mean thats the way roamer should be played.

harb used shotgun for a while to prepare for i46 in Europe - they don't allow gunboats there

oh lol

but i still kinda like using it lol

yeah i know, i was just trying to make connections to cases where it worked.

but apparently i was wrong about them using it lol

Anyone who says that roamers should always run gunboats is retarded.

Thats it ladies and gentlemen, no further input required

i'll give some further input :P. imo shotgun is good on blands, granary, and gullywash as roamer. maps like gpit, snakewater, viaduct,and process should be gunboats most or all of the time. haven't played metalworks so can't comment. another situation where you can swap to shotgun is if you are spawning around the same time as your medic. you can change to build faster, although most teams will probably have someone else link up. however, that is still a viable instance.

i'm not trying to discourage you b33f. if you want to run shotgun all the time then by all means go for it. i'm simply saying that as an american player who watches a ton of ESEA demos, i hardly ever see shotgun anymore. feel free to give me some examples of shotgun usage, but i haven't seen it in a while from the top players.

while top players can be wrong sometimes, i think there is probably a good reason that they're all using gunboats. i'm just trying to give you some advice and save you some time so that you don't have to find out the hard way.

hopefully maybe some roamers can comment on this thread if you don't want to take my word for it.

i was never trying to disprove gunboats being good

and i never said that you were wrong lol i'm simply stating an opinion and you seemed to take offense.
i apologize, but i'm just adding my part to the discussion.

Like Vanilla and Bl4nk brought up, some parts of certain maps really don't require that much jumping, i.e. pushing into granary second from yard, holding granary second from lunchbox, and holding gullywash last. To be honest, though, with the quick shifts in momentum that occur in this game, you'll have to really practice being able to do quick pushouts and healthpack management if you want to be constantly switching between both. I can't tell you the number of times I've pushed granary second with shotgun, used it successfully, only to be faced with pushing quick into Granary last and having to take pipe control with a 30-40 damage jump.

Not only that, it slightly limits your ability to escape from situations that you would normally be able to get out of with gunboats, and during bombs you most likely won't be able to get a second jump out if their medic somehow manages to spot you as you're jumping him and jukes your first rocket.

It also affects the ways you can play flank. Usually with gunboats I feel a lot safer playing a really close corner that the scouts might round because I can rocket jump twice, do 30 damage in total to myself, and completely wreck or destroy the scout that peeked the corner. With shotgun I feel like my finishing power on scouts is a lot higher, but I also have to play more cautiously on flank because if I take a direct rocket or a meatshot, I can only rocket jump once before anyone would be able to chip/30dmg shot me to death.

All that being said though, it really comes down to the map and team you're facing. If your team plays the map where your scout is constantly with you on flank, I don't see why you wouldn't use gunboats. If you're alone, and your job is to watch passively instead of going for the first sign of a transition / distraction, you'll be better off using shotgun. I've seen a great deal of roamers switch depending on map area / terrain, but again, in order to do this you must learn how to push any area with both shotgun and gunboats and be able to support your team quickly, sometimes without heals.

Right again. When I roamed for koreabros in S10, I ran shotgun on gullywash and ended up getting over half my kills with it in our matches. It is map dependent. On open maps with long distances to cover like snakewater and process, gunboats are effective. On closer maps like granary and gullywash, shotgun can be effective. I think that most roams run gunboats full time because they're lazy. Running shotgun on roam requires a more focused and conservative playstyle.

shotgun is the best weapon in the game afterall

none taken. i completely understand you opinion and where you are coming from

Use what works for your playstyle.

Don't listen to anyone that says you should only use gunboats (or only use shotgun) as a roamer.

As a Euro i have to disagree with you. Basically some people wanted gunboats (aka funboats) and some were just whining "Why can´t we have unlocks?". Atm we´re playing the 6th Cup with Overdose, Gunboats, Boston Basher, Escape Plan and Paint Train allowed and no one complained about it so far plus most of the players in prem said they want these unlocks in season 14 or they´re at least fine with these unlocks being allowed. ->season 14 most likely with these unlocks

This has nothing to do with gunboats being the only choice for a roamer. Since my team plays both pcws with normal and with the 6th cup rules i can tell you that playing with a roamer who is using gunboats instead of the shotgun is neither better nor worse. It´s just requires a different playstyle. It doesn´t matter if it´s the midfight or anything else, if your roamer is running gunboats he will take a lot less heals, but he will also do a lot less damage and is basically limited to bombing in and getting key picks or distracting.

Just keep in mind that when the roamer is on gunboats you cannot rotate or switch pocket and roamer as effectively, that your teams damage output is a lot lower and that since your roamer should be going for key picks you´re pushing with only one soldier most of the time. If one of your scouts likes to do the "get in, get a pick, die"-thing then you probably want your roamer to play with shotgun to keep your teams damage output high enough to be able to capitalize on these picks.

tl;dr
shotgun for safe, passive style, less bombs, more positioning
guboats for bombing + key picks, 1 soldier down most of the time/during pushes

no, not at all

european tf2 still seems to have this "roamer is the backup pocket" mentality where every time i see a roamer hes 5 feet from the pocket whos 5 feet from the medic

gunboats frees up heals, which is something you completely ignored.

anybody who says theyd rather only bomb with +40 hp and no shotgun is quite silly

but the idea that soldiers run gunboats when theyre planning on only going for plays or suiciding 24/7 is pretty dumb too

when you have gunboats you can rj multiple times when youre below 50 hp and do damage with 2/3 rockets to the enemy, you dont have to die

MR_SLIN never watches dave_ac or ww play, but its ok they weren't very good roamers right?

#27
dave ac total of 1 shotgun frag all of last season, seems pretty accurate to say he hardly used shotgun at least looking at most recent info

I didn't watch last season, but the last season I watched (11 i guess?) he used it pretty often. He still used gunboats more, but he did switch to shotgun at certain times. Unless I'm an idiot and remembering things that didn't happen at all, which is possible.

No, not at all.
Don´t quote a tl;dr and then complain about something not being mentioned. ;-)
Imho the roamer should be on the flank, unless he´s getting a buff atm or you planned a double soldier bomb for the next push.
Of course he needs a bit less heals, which is quite handy in team fights and on the midfight, but it´s not that much of a difference at all other points in time.

I haven´t said anything about 24/7 suiciding. Gunboats just give roamers the ability to bomb in and jump out or to bomb in places that are usually to far away because of the amount of jumps required.

If your scout(s) are playing a bit more passive, so you rarely need the shotgun as finisher, then you can equip gunboats for convenience (heals, more rjs). With gunboats you can jump in and out easier (i called this bombing, this is already considered pretty aggressive in europe) OR go for a suicide play on a medic far back. Considering that your scouts are playing rather passive, there´s no reason not to go for these plays.
Contrary if your scout(s) are playing aggressive you have to hold the flank and probably need the additional firepower of the shotgun, while you are a bit closer to your medic (depending on the map) so you can get heals/buffs easily, which negates the advantage of gunboats.

And of course, like #20 said, it´s depending on the map. Running gunboats all the time EXCEPT for the midfight (unless your roamer wants do to a shitload of jumps on the midfight) is a good idea for open maps (e.g. process) where the flank is miles away from the medic, so buffs wouldn´t last until the roamer is back on the flank (rjs/walking time) and the roamer would just waste time by going back to the medic. On smaller maps (e.g. gullywash) shotgun is superior most of the times. Although we like to suicide our roamer on the combo in gullywash midfights, if our demo does the rollout via choke, so the combo takes too much damage to stay in the fight or just gets killed. After that our roamer runs shotgun pretty much all the time.
This is just a rule of thumb, figuring out when exactly to run gunboats or shotgun is pretty hard, it depends on the map AND the team/the teams playstyle/your playstyle.