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I am definitely not a full tilt fanboy lol but the reason they also play this passive is if they dont they will just lose, thats why they go sniper 24/7. It's almost impossible to try other things vs nameless because they always know a way to counter it.

So basically you're blaming nameless for being the better team at adjusting to the opponent and giving no space to the other team ?

Im blaming them for what? Being the reason that everyone plays so slow?
Yes I am blaming them for that because like I said in my previous post... Nobody knows how to deal with it yet so they just have to play the same slow and boring game.

"for being the better team at adjusting to the opponent"
They just know how to counter every push, doesnt matter who the opponent is.

I also know for a fact full tilt doesnt want to play like this they are just forced to if they dont want to lose.

So what you're basically saying is that it's our fault no one can counter our playstyle and thus just copies it instead? I'm sorry we play to win, I guess?

I'm not saying its your fault nobody can counter it yet, but I am blaming you for not trying to change your playstyle, I know you want to win but are you guys having fun sitting in a choke for 30 min spamming?

No one wants to play slow and boring, it's just what works best to win consistently.

Yes but other things might work, you just never tried them, you are only trying to perfect this slow playstyle...

It's not like we love spamming chokepoints, but if you're in a playoff game, it's 6v6, even uber, you would just uber in and hope for the best? Unless the other team is awful that's not an exchange you should be able to win. I'd rather play boring and win than play "fun" and throw the game.

You could try some sort of strat and kill the flank or something, If I would know how to do break the stalemate I would have told you :D, thats what im saying you should try something to break the stalemate instead of just holding.

And no don't do that in an official just in scrims, untill you figure out you can do it consistently.

Other teams try things to beat their slow playstyle, how does that work out? The only team close is Full Tilt and that's because they try to play a similar playstyle.

It doesnt work out because nameless knows how to counter it all already, thats why they are the ones who should try to do something new.

In the end this is just all my opinion in how to try to fix this slow gamestyle. Doesnt mean its the right thing.

Saving new stuff for yanks at lan, eu scrubs not worthy!

Idk damneasy, back in the days people used their demo and kritz to dictate the past of the game against a "slow" team. You definitely have the demo to do that in your team :D It makes absolutely no sense that you argue against someones playstyle whilst stating that the main reason you are so frustrated with it is because noone has figured out how to beat that. I dont know if this whole debate is some sort of a troll or if prem really is THAT bad atm. It also bothers me that everytime i listen to your teams comms on streams it seems that only a small fraction of your team seems to give a shit and i count you as someone in that team that cares so don´t take it personal. But it comes arround so cringy to then go onto forums and cry about not being able to beat a certain play style when you´ve prolly never set down and discussed how to beat it with your mates. How is playing slow and sending one scout behind to be annoying something new in TF2 that you cant handle? Genuine question

edit: I know kaidus last reply is meant as joke but i´m fairly sure that hes aware that nL will adapt their playstyle at LAN since they will be facing people that are not as dense as the once they have to face currently. Kaidus knows whats up

edit2: if you are genuinly interested in how to approach those stalemates you can hit me up on steam and we can talk for hours if you like! I really dont want to come arround as if im on my high horse here but this whole situation really just blows my mind!

Viewers perspective should not matter to the players, if 30 minutes of choke spamming gets you a win on the scoreboard who cares what the viewers are seeing. The viewers do not matter to the results, the i58 grand finals could get 3 views but the winners still won.

At the start of the season we actually tried some stuff to beat nameless, schocky planned out a lot of strats on tactics.tf but half of the team didnt really do them so he gave up on that, we even played the slow game one time and it was something like 0-0 score 30 min and I went spy like 15 times, very fun tbh.

And my team wasnt patience enough to hold and try stuff so we just went in to try stuff.

I actually try to win a lot but when we start making weird plays I just cant play serious anymore.

edit: "And my team wasnt patience enough to hold and try stuff so we just went in to try stuff." this doenst make any sense let me reword that lol. What I mean is we didnt want to hold and make some plays in order to break the stalemate we just wanted to go "yolo" it and hope for the best.

edit2: We also didnt have a maincaller so there was no chance of us actually doing strats lmao
We played with honey yesterday and we came close to drawing/beating nameless because honey calls where just really good even though he never played with us before.

This is what i expected. So overall this situation paints a picture to me that most teams just lack the discipline to be able to break this playstyle.I completly understand the frustration with having to play against such a style but isn´t the most rewarding part of tf2 ( besides airshots LUL ) to be able to outsmart your opponent. I´ve been in the situation throughout my entire tf2 career. There have always been 1 or 2 teams above me and my guys that were just better ( im exclusively talking Epsilon and broder here the rest were all shitters). We got beaten especially by Epsilon for month (i think its actually years) and Broder also won more against us than we won against them. My point is that if you put in the effort there are those games where you can suprise a team that is stronger than you by suddenly adapting to what they do and make what worked for them for weeks the nail in their coffin. That was in my opinion the best part for me about maincalling and being ( wording it really weird) the brain behind the team. But that never came from naturally being good - i just had to put in hours of hours of watching demos ( lol i even watched bregos demos to see how we could improve ) and sitting down with my team having talks about our opponents and our own playstyle. To wrap it up - i think its all about effort. You are clearly stating that your squad isnt willing to put in the effort necessary to beat nL so fuck em !

edit1: i watched bregos stream yesterday and honey is a huge upgrade to your team - clearly a leader is missing and honey gives you cohesion. Im looking forward to see how you will improve as a team with him but im also quiet sure that your team has a bigger risk of exploding now :D

If trading ubers is something the attackers cant risk then either the game or maps are faulty. I think the only way to make this game fastpaced is to give an incentive to trade ubers. Better map design? Valve to make better balance updates? Nerf scouts so they cant deal with flank so well? Buff demo so they have a better chance to get a pick?

Even though nL's playstyle is the cancer of 6v6, you should not blame them for trying to win. Blame 5CP.
Instead of complaining about the playstyle, offer suggestions on how to fix it. Like a 5 minute round timer on last or something.

there is no problem with roundtimers or 5CP. There is also no problem with their playstyle :( PLS GUYS! BE REAL

Maybe next season i'll be in a team that is full of players that actually want to win and got the motivation to do it. (Hint: there might be a new team coming) I'm just hoping it doesnt turn into a flop and/or its actually going to happen :D.

I hope everything turns out great for you. Brego has a lot of praise for you as a roamer and I think very highly of him. So I genuinly hope you find a bunch of people that are on the same energy level and mindset tf2 wise then you!

CAN U COACH US IPZ

Ye, i´ve been talking to kos about this a lot lately. I will be home in a couple of hours but you can tell him that I will be able to coach a bit in the next couple of weeks =) ( I talked to him about having to see what my working schedule would look like) So im down! I don´t think I would come to LAN and I dont think he ever thought thats necessary. The main reason being that i cba with byoc tickets as a coach :D

Tbh there should be more koth maps they are way more fun to play and no stalemates.

I want to see a koth map which doesn't punish the defender so hard as Viaduct (longer spawns + the only way to defend is to give the point to the enemy and try to repush out of that). I remember when viaduct was basically just suiciding to get a possible force when your scout and medic just built uber in spawn. Now you don't even need uber to get the point for free. Even shit teams like PCMR can get rounds easily from top teams or at least make it down to the wire (1m-overtime left).

tl;dr Viaduct is fun to play and there are no stalemates but for the wrong reasons.

I don't know how many koth maps exist but ETF2L should try out some koth maps in the s25 preseason cup tbh

I do not think there is a single map in the current mappool where you are at a heavy disadvantage as an attacker and tbh if people would stop literally feeding into teams like nameLess they would have a much bigger chance of actually taking maps of them. Unfortunately though most players nowadays only know one gear and think that they are the next clockwork(w+m1 always win), so they feed in 3 players for an idiotic force and lose the whole round at the back of that missplay. The only team that is smart enough to realise that is Full Tilt at the moment. Although i think that thalash would be way more efficient if he played scout more, as sniper tends to make the game even more stalematey.People also should maybe watch old games because the whole slow gamestyle thing is not a new problem it has always been there and multiple teams and players have found ways around it. Example from the top of my head: S19 I remember when bk called us out for playing so slow and boring and never taking any risks, they still managed to take rounds of us. Another example playing versus jukebox on sniper you literally had nowhere to go but ipz and knoxxx still managed to find ways around that issue and cc// and epsilon took maps of broder.

PS: Do not blame the better teams for beating you just makes you sound like salty crybabies. If you care about your results in TF2 put in the time and effort to fix issues instead of bitching about it on a forum because that will just prove that nameLess is doing everything right at the moment.

I'm not even saying that the reason we lost against them is because how slow they play (they are the better team and thats why they beat us) only thing that I was saying is how they play and how they could maybe change it up.