Let's look at this another way.
Have you ever watched your own demo after a match and noticed all of the mistakes you made? Why is it so easy to analyze the correct decisions while watching demos? I think it's because you have no pressure to perform/dm while watching. If you have access to all of your teammates perspectives on top of that, and you'd be able to maincall for them, I think there is potential for a big advantage.
I'm not specifically calling out Crowns here, and I don't personally think they were able to utilize this advantage to the degree that other Esports has. Coaching in high level TF2 is still a relatively new thing, and it's very relative to each team how much they can benefit from it.
In CSGO, the advantage is even bigger as the Coaches spend hours every day going through enemy teams demos and plan out counter strats, or just to know what to expect. The players are allowed to focus on playing and practicing.
Instead of discussing how much it mattered that Kaidus coaches for Crowns this lan, let's instead admit that if Coaching become more of a thing in TF2 then in the future it can become an issue.
Valve made a rule limiting communication between coaches to timeouts and between maps, which to me seem perfectly reasonable for tf2.
Let's look at this another way.
Have you ever watched your own demo after a match and noticed all of the mistakes you made? Why is it so easy to analyze the correct decisions while watching demos? I think it's because you have no pressure to perform/dm while watching. If you have access to all of your teammates perspectives on top of that, and you'd be able to maincall for them, I think there is potential for a big advantage.
I'm not specifically calling out Crowns here, and I don't personally think they were able to utilize this advantage to the degree that other Esports has. Coaching in high level TF2 is still a relatively new thing, and it's very relative to each team how much they can benefit from it.
In CSGO, the advantage is even bigger as the Coaches spend hours every day going through enemy teams demos and plan out counter strats, or just to know what to expect. The players are allowed to focus on playing and practicing.
Instead of discussing how much it mattered that Kaidus coaches for Crowns this lan, let's instead admit that if Coaching become more of a thing in TF2 then in the future it can become an issue.
Valve made a rule limiting communication between coaches to timeouts and between maps, which to me seem perfectly reasonable for tf2.
Starkieyou guys are overestimating how much a coach can help a team. froyo, for example, would not improve with a coach. its far more beneficial to have players who can take charge rather than someone who isnt in the game. kaidus almost never spoke during a fight as he couldnt get a word in. it was only during downtime (during stalemates, rollouts, freeze time etc.) that he spoke up and told us what to do.
camperya i agree honestly you could get 6 dm lords and a coach who keeps track of ubers, players, and calls pushes and you've got yourself a good team
thats definitely not true. there's only so much a coach can see and its not possible to micromanage a bunch of idiots
You say coaches don't make much of a difference, but wasn't it one of your own players (spudd maybe?) who said that crowns wouldn't have gotten as far without kaidus?
[quote=Starkie]you guys are overestimating how much a coach can help a team. froyo, for example, would not improve with a coach. its far more beneficial to have players who can take charge rather than someone who isnt in the game. kaidus almost never spoke during a fight as he couldnt get a word in. it was only during downtime (during stalemates, rollouts, freeze time etc.) that he spoke up and told us what to do.
[quote=camper]ya i agree honestly you could get 6 dm lords and a coach who keeps track of ubers, players, and calls pushes and you've got yourself a good team[/quote]
thats definitely not true. there's only so much a coach can see and its not possible to micromanage a bunch of idiots[/quote]
You say coaches don't make much of a difference, but wasn't it one of your own players (spudd maybe?) who said that crowns wouldn't have gotten as far without kaidus?
http://m.imgur.com/2Zryn8F?r
Crowns @ i58
SideshowHave you ever tried to control a pug team even when you're playing? How on earth could you control six dm donkeys from spec?! While I think it has its pros and cons and I'm personally not that keen on igl coaches in tf2, some of these posts are madness! Kaidus calling from demo was better than kaidus calling from spec, and as stark said a team who has that igl style player like banny on Froyotech would get virtually 0 from an igl coach.
The major fucking difference between a team in the i58 grand finals and a pug is that no one besides b4nny cares if they lose in pugs. People really care if they win i58. So the 6 other people would 100% listen to the coach if they knew he knew what he was talking about.
[quote=Sideshow]Have you ever tried to control a pug team even when you're playing? How on earth could you control six dm donkeys from spec?! While I think it has its pros and cons and I'm personally not that keen on igl coaches in tf2, some of these posts are madness! Kaidus calling from demo was better than kaidus calling from spec, and as stark said a team who has that igl style player like banny on Froyotech would get virtually 0 from an igl coach.[/quote]
The major fucking difference between a team in the i58 grand finals and a pug is that no one besides b4nny cares if they lose in pugs. People really care if they win i58. So the 6 other people would 100% listen to the coach if they knew he knew what he was talking about.
All I'm saying is, sure people might suck at using coaches right now but who's to say that they can't be better utilized in the future? Coaching and in-game comms could get organized to the point where it actually is a huge advantage, and I'd rather not head down that road.
Let's just kill in-game coaching right now to save us the hassle. We're already seeing similar things happening in other esports, and that's because the developers want the experience that you and I have in matchmaking to be the same as the experience that pro players have on stage. These games are about which team can field the best 5/6 players not 6+coach.
All I'm saying is, sure people might suck at using coaches right now but who's to say that they can't be better utilized in the future? Coaching and in-game comms could get organized to the point where it actually is a huge advantage, and I'd rather not head down that road.
Let's just kill in-game coaching right now to save us the hassle. We're already seeing similar things happening in other esports, and that's because the developers want the experience that you and I have in matchmaking to be the same as the experience that pro players have on stage. These games are about which team can field the best 5/6 players not 6+coach.
MR_SLINAll I'm saying is, sure people might suck at using coaches right now but who's to say that they can't be better utilized in the future? Coaching and in-game comms could get organized to the point where it actually is a huge advantage, and I'd rather not head down that road.
Let's just kill in-game coaching right now to save us the hassle. We're already seeing similar things happening in other esports, and that's because the developers want the experience that you and I have in matchmaking to be the same as the experience that pro players have on stage. These games are about which team can field the best 5/6 players not 6+coach.
I think in game coaching give too much of an advantage. I don't know if this comparison can fit the arguement but think about football (or soccer for the Yanks) each team has a coach which obviously gives directions mid game but its not like the coach can call everybody over and say well now we gonna do this and this. Half time is made exactly for that and i think that having a coach is fine but limit it to him talking between maps. I mean stalemates are a big thing in comp TF2 especially in 6's. So the coach gets way too much time to confer with his team in those dead moments. I mean players don't have to focus a lot during stalemates and so they can pay attention to the coach. Im not saying we should remove coaches but limit their power
[quote=MR_SLIN]All I'm saying is, sure people might suck at using coaches right now but who's to say that they can't be better utilized in the future? Coaching and in-game comms could get organized to the point where it actually is a huge advantage, and I'd rather not head down that road.
Let's just kill in-game coaching right now to save us the hassle. We're already seeing similar things happening in other esports, and that's because the developers want the experience that you and I have in matchmaking to be the same as the experience that pro players have on stage. These games are about which team can field the best 5/6 players not 6+coach.[/quote]
I think in game coaching give too much of an advantage. I don't know if this comparison can fit the arguement but think about football (or soccer for the Yanks) each team has a coach which obviously gives directions mid game but its not like the coach can call everybody over and say well now we gonna do this and this. Half time is made exactly for that and i think that having a coach is fine but limit it to him talking between maps. I mean stalemates are a big thing in comp TF2 especially in 6's. So the coach gets way too much time to confer with his team in those dead moments. I mean players don't have to focus a lot during stalemates and so they can pay attention to the coach. Im not saying we should remove coaches but limit their power
alle and full tilt placed 1st in my heart つ◕ل͜◕)つ
alle and full tilt placed 1st in my heart つ◕ل͜◕)つ