Highlight: Muuki vs. 3/6
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teleporter snakewater last defense, can't wait to attempt it
teleporter snakewater last defense, can't wait to attempt it
im sorry the video turned out kinda awkward, editing a telefrag and a backcap is a weird thing to edit well especially if you're not good at editing :^)
im sorry the video turned out kinda awkward, editing a telefrag and a backcap is a weird thing to edit well especially if you're not good at editing :^)
pyxelizeim sorry the video turned out kinda awkward, editing a telefrag and a backcap is a weird thing to edit well especially if you're not good at editing :^)
Nah this is pretty sick tbh, good edit.
[quote=pyxelize]im sorry the video turned out kinda awkward, editing a telefrag and a backcap is a weird thing to edit well especially if you're not good at editing :^)[/quote]
Nah this is pretty sick tbh, good edit.
Nah this is pretty sick tbh, good edit.
CollaideNow I know why 3/6 swapped player roles...
No you don't
[quote=Collaide]Now I know why 3/6 swapped player roles...[/quote]
No you don't
No you don't
DomoCatFaceCollaideNow I know why 3/6 swapped player roles...
No you don't
domo we need to be honest
collaide is right
that moment changed our lives forever
[quote=DomoCatFace][quote=Collaide]Now I know why 3/6 swapped player roles...[/quote]
No you don't[/quote]
domo we need to be honest
collaide is right
that moment changed our lives forever
No you don't[/quote]
domo we need to be honest
collaide is right
that moment changed our lives forever
CrayonDomoCatFaceCollaideNow I know why 3/6 swapped player roles...
No you don't
domo we need to be honest
collaide is right
that moment changed our lives forever
maybe a couple of mental and physical scars, but that's besides the point
[quote=Crayon][quote=DomoCatFace][quote=Collaide]Now I know why 3/6 swapped player roles...[/quote]
No you don't[/quote]
domo we need to be honest
collaide is right
that moment changed our lives forever[/quote]
maybe a couple of mental and physical scars, but that's besides the point
No you don't[/quote]
domo we need to be honest
collaide is right
that moment changed our lives forever[/quote]
maybe a couple of mental and physical scars, but that's besides the point
[quote=Collaide]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke[/quote]
https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/d7/d7585658fe72d63ca55f62c1320501d319f16f80_full.jpg
https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/d7/d7585658fe72d63ca55f62c1320501d319f16f80_full.jpg
PredCollaidehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke
https://i.imgur.com/n8umjWj.png
That's this entire forum in a nutshell though
EDIT:
The picture you linked is honestly retarded, and is a large part of the reason why most online communities are toxic.
Before I get started into this essay written by a no-lifer like myself, I will say that however clever my refutation of this idiotic comic ever will be, you can always turn back and say you were just joking as well. This following bit is a precautionary refutation:
Show Content
In a clever form the argument could be something like this:
"Well, Collaide YOU claimed we didn't understand the joke, but then you didn't understand the joke picture I posted! What an utter hypocrisy! We may or may not have understood your joke but that doesn't matter because you didn't understand OUR joke!! Haha! Gotcha!"
But no, you did not get me. You know for a fact that the majority of the people who upvoted your retarded comment do in fact believe it applies to the situation at hand. Either you also believe so, or most people on this forum believes so. And in case you believed so at the moment of posting that picture, you still can get a "pass" by just flipping and claiming it to be a joke.
So please don't claim that it's a joke, because it makes you look like you flopped on the issue, which is, what this argument ultimately accuses me of doing. And as I said previously, this bit is merely in case you believed it at the time, if you didn't, the upfraggers did.
"Well, Collaide YOU claimed we didn't understand the joke, but then you didn't understand the joke picture I posted! What an utter hypocrisy! We may or may not have understood your joke but that doesn't matter because you didn't understand OUR joke!! Haha! Gotcha!"
But no, you did not get me. You know for a fact that the majority of the people who upvoted your retarded comment do in fact believe it applies to the situation at hand. Either you also believe so, or most people on this forum believes so. And in case you believed so at the moment of posting that picture, you still can get a "pass" by just flipping and claiming it to be a joke.
So please don't claim that it's a joke, because it makes you look like you flopped on the issue, which is, what this argument ultimately accuses me of doing. And as I said previously, this bit is merely in case you believed it at the time, if you didn't, the upfraggers did.
Back to the picture at hand.
It frames a rather interesting situation where someone is obnoxiously retarded in hopes of getting attention, ends up not getting attention and told to leave the discussion, and afterwards the individual in question feels hopelessness, and an empty void that could have been filled with confirmation.
A. Unfunny Statement from person craving attention
B. Telling person who wrote/said unfunny statement to leave
C. Unfunny-Statement-Guy gets sad cuz he got rejected
Sure you may not find my joke funny in any way. You may think it was childish, ignorant, annoying, offensive or a whole spectrum of other thingsm, but ultimately I was not playing mentally handicapped just to get attention or confirmation. I was making a joke intended at poking fun at the members of 3/6 while at the same time complimenting Muuki's achievment, in a sense, saying his achievments made 3/6 tilt so hard they in fact had to change classes to stay interested in playing tf2 for the remainder of the season. This of course was not what actually happened. Before I posted that comment, I had already read the community news about degu joining 3/6 and the players changing roles, and I sincerely believed the reason stated in the article. At this point Domo responds with a "No", short for "No, that is not the reason we switched classes on our team." For what reason would anyone ever respond with a "No" here if they actually know it's a joke? I explain in a crude manner that it was a joke, and offense is taken by "Pred" who posts a comic he uses to assassinate my character.
A better explanation for what actually happened:
A. Someone poking fun at a group with demonstrably false information.
B. Person from said group responding and saying that the information is actually false, without realising that he is aware of this.
C. Explains it's a joke
D. Says the guy poking fun at them is just craving attention and playing retarded.
Again, this more accurately represents the actual situation.
I even made my own comic of this situation, in an exaggerated manner:
http://imgur.com/F9JUJAT
Cribbyur trying too hard collaide
But you're not showing me how I'm wrong... :/
You're not even saying I'm wrong... :o
Which makes your comment useless. xD
Crayondon't think criticising the very forum you are posting in is the right way to go
unless you're intending to further alienate yourself
1. You're still not refuting anything I say.
2. You already have some sort of grudge against me from before, and it's not like 3/6 team would ever talk to me anyway. I know my post is pathetic but that doesn't stop it from being CORRECT.
[quote=Pred][quote=Collaide]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke[/quote]
https://i.imgur.com/n8umjWj.png[/quote]
That's this entire forum in a nutshell though
EDIT:
The picture you linked is honestly retarded, and is a large part of the reason why most online communities are toxic.
Before I get started into this essay written by a no-lifer like myself, I will say that however clever my refutation of this idiotic comic ever will be, you can always turn back and say you were just joking as well. This following bit is a precautionary refutation:
[spoiler][i]In a clever form the argument could be something like this:
"Well, Collaide YOU claimed we didn't understand the joke, but then you didn't understand the joke picture I posted! What an utter hypocrisy! We may or may not have understood your joke but that doesn't matter because you didn't understand OUR joke!! Haha! Gotcha!"
But no, you did not get me. You know for a fact that the majority of the people who upvoted your retarded comment do in fact believe it applies to the situation at hand. Either you also believe so, or most people on this forum believes so. And in case you believed so at the moment of posting that picture, you still can get a "pass" by just flipping and claiming it to be a joke.
So please don't claim that it's a joke, because it makes you look like you flopped on the issue, which is, what this argument ultimately accuses me of doing. And as I said previously, this bit is merely in case you believed it at the time, if you didn't, the upfraggers did. [/i][/spoiler]
Back to the picture at hand.
It frames a rather interesting situation where someone is obnoxiously retarded in hopes of getting attention, ends up not getting attention and told to leave the discussion, and afterwards the individual in question feels hopelessness, and an empty void that could have been filled with confirmation.
[i]A. Unfunny Statement from person craving attention
B. Telling person who wrote/said unfunny statement to leave
C. Unfunny-Statement-Guy gets sad cuz he got rejected[/i]
Sure you may not find my joke funny in any way. You may think it was childish, ignorant, annoying, offensive or a whole spectrum of other thingsm, but ultimately I was not playing mentally handicapped just to get attention or confirmation. I was making a joke intended at poking fun at the members of 3/6 while at the same time complimenting Muuki's achievment, in a sense, saying his achievments made 3/6 tilt so hard they in fact had to change classes to stay interested in playing tf2 for the remainder of the season. This of course was not what actually happened. Before I posted that comment, I had already read the community news about degu joining 3/6 and the players changing roles, and I sincerely believed the reason stated in [url=http://www.teamfortress.tv/39623/degu-replaces-nation-on-3-6-team-swaps-roles]the article[/url]. At this point Domo responds with a "No", short for "No, that is not the reason we switched classes on our team." For what reason would anyone ever respond with a "No" here if they actually know it's a joke? I explain in a crude manner that it was a joke, and offense is taken by "Pred" who posts a comic he uses to assassinate my character.
[b][i]A better explanation for what actually happened:[/i][/b]
[i]A. Someone poking fun at a group with demonstrably false information.
B. Person from said group responding and saying that the information is actually false, without realising that he is aware of this.
C. Explains it's a joke
D. Says the guy poking fun at them is just craving attention and playing retarded.[/i]
Again, this more accurately represents the actual situation.
I even made my own comic of this situation, in an exaggerated manner:
http://imgur.com/F9JUJAT
[quote=Cribby]ur trying too hard collaide[/quote]
But you're not showing me how I'm wrong... :/
You're not even saying I'm wrong... :o
Which makes your comment useless. xD
[quote=Crayon]don't think criticising the very forum you are posting in is the right way to go
unless you're intending to further alienate yourself[/quote]
1. You're still not refuting anything I say.
2. You already have some sort of grudge against me from before, and it's not like 3/6 team would ever talk to me anyway. I know my post is pathetic but that doesn't stop it from being CORRECT.
https://i.imgur.com/n8umjWj.png[/quote]
That's this entire forum in a nutshell though
EDIT:
The picture you linked is honestly retarded, and is a large part of the reason why most online communities are toxic.
Before I get started into this essay written by a no-lifer like myself, I will say that however clever my refutation of this idiotic comic ever will be, you can always turn back and say you were just joking as well. This following bit is a precautionary refutation:
[spoiler][i]In a clever form the argument could be something like this:
"Well, Collaide YOU claimed we didn't understand the joke, but then you didn't understand the joke picture I posted! What an utter hypocrisy! We may or may not have understood your joke but that doesn't matter because you didn't understand OUR joke!! Haha! Gotcha!"
But no, you did not get me. You know for a fact that the majority of the people who upvoted your retarded comment do in fact believe it applies to the situation at hand. Either you also believe so, or most people on this forum believes so. And in case you believed so at the moment of posting that picture, you still can get a "pass" by just flipping and claiming it to be a joke.
So please don't claim that it's a joke, because it makes you look like you flopped on the issue, which is, what this argument ultimately accuses me of doing. And as I said previously, this bit is merely in case you believed it at the time, if you didn't, the upfraggers did. [/i][/spoiler]
Back to the picture at hand.
It frames a rather interesting situation where someone is obnoxiously retarded in hopes of getting attention, ends up not getting attention and told to leave the discussion, and afterwards the individual in question feels hopelessness, and an empty void that could have been filled with confirmation.
[i]A. Unfunny Statement from person craving attention
B. Telling person who wrote/said unfunny statement to leave
C. Unfunny-Statement-Guy gets sad cuz he got rejected[/i]
Sure you may not find my joke funny in any way. You may think it was childish, ignorant, annoying, offensive or a whole spectrum of other thingsm, but ultimately I was not playing mentally handicapped just to get attention or confirmation. I was making a joke intended at poking fun at the members of 3/6 while at the same time complimenting Muuki's achievment, in a sense, saying his achievments made 3/6 tilt so hard they in fact had to change classes to stay interested in playing tf2 for the remainder of the season. This of course was not what actually happened. Before I posted that comment, I had already read the community news about degu joining 3/6 and the players changing roles, and I sincerely believed the reason stated in [url=http://www.teamfortress.tv/39623/degu-replaces-nation-on-3-6-team-swaps-roles]the article[/url]. At this point Domo responds with a "No", short for "No, that is not the reason we switched classes on our team." For what reason would anyone ever respond with a "No" here if they actually know it's a joke? I explain in a crude manner that it was a joke, and offense is taken by "Pred" who posts a comic he uses to assassinate my character.
[b][i]A better explanation for what actually happened:[/i][/b]
[i]A. Someone poking fun at a group with demonstrably false information.
B. Person from said group responding and saying that the information is actually false, without realising that he is aware of this.
C. Explains it's a joke
D. Says the guy poking fun at them is just craving attention and playing retarded.[/i]
Again, this more accurately represents the actual situation.
I even made my own comic of this situation, in an exaggerated manner:
http://imgur.com/F9JUJAT
[quote=Cribby]ur trying too hard collaide[/quote]
But you're not showing me how I'm wrong... :/
You're not even saying I'm wrong... :o
Which makes your comment useless. xD
[quote=Crayon]don't think criticising the very forum you are posting in is the right way to go
unless you're intending to further alienate yourself[/quote]
1. You're still not refuting anything I say.
2. You already have some sort of grudge against me from before, and it's not like 3/6 team would ever talk to me anyway. I know my post is pathetic but that doesn't stop it from being CORRECT.
Valikyrhow do you even come up with strategies that are that fucking next level
[quote=Valikyr]how do you even come up with strategies that are that fucking next level[/quote]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPNdtDUHlDk]Steal them from SteveC[/url]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPNdtDUHlDk]Steal them from SteveC[/url]
don't think criticising the very forum you are posting in is the right way to go
unless you're intending to further alienate yourself
don't think criticising the very forum you are posting in is the right way to go
unless you're intending to further alienate yourself
unless you're intending to further alienate yourself
damneasy@collaide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Deg7VrpHbM
[quote=damneasy]@collaide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Deg7VrpHbM[/quote]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYDy_nlgi5Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYDy_nlgi5Q
CollaidePredThat's this entire forum in a nutshell thoughCollaidehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke
https://i.imgur.com/n8umjWj.png
EDIT:
The picture you linked is honestly retarded, and is a large part of the reason why most online communities are toxic.
Before I get started into this essay written by a no-lifer like myself, I will say that however clever my refutation of this idiotic comic ever will be, you can always turn back and say you were just joking as well. This following bit is a precautionary refutation:
Show ContentIn a clever form the argument could be something like this:
"Well, Collaide YOU claimed we didn't understand the joke, but then you didn't understand the joke picture I posted! What an utter hypocrisy! We may or may not have understood your joke but that doesn't matter because you didn't understand OUR joke!! Haha! Gotcha!"
But no, you did not get me. You know for a fact that the majority of the people who upvoted your retarded comment do in fact believe it applies to the situation at hand. Either you also believe so, or most people on this forum believes so. And in case you believed so at the moment of posting that picture, you still can get a "pass" by just flipping and claiming it to be a joke.
So please don't claim that it's a joke, because it makes you look like you flopped on the issue, which is, what this argument ultimately accuses me of doing. And as I said previously, this bit is merely in case you believed it at the time, if you didn't, the upfraggers did.
Back to the picture at hand.
It frames a rather interesting situation where someone is obnoxiously retarded in hopes of getting attention, ends up not getting attention and told to leave the discussion, and afterwards the individual in question feels hopelessness, and an empty void that could have been filled with confirmation.
A. Unfunny Statement from person craving attention
B. Telling person who wrote/said unfunny statement to leave
C. Unfunny-Statement-Guy gets sad cuz he got rejected
Sure you may not find my joke funny in any way. You may think it was childish, ignorant, annoying, offensive or a whole spectrum of other thingsm, but ultimately I was not playing mentally handicapped just to get attention or confirmation. I was making a joke intended at poking fun at the members of 3/6 while at the same time complimenting Muuki's achievment, in a sense, saying his achievments made 3/6 tilt so hard they in fact had to change classes to stay interested in playing tf2 for the remainder of the season. This of course was not what actually happened. Before I posted that comment, I had already read the community news about degu joining 3/6 and the players changing roles, and I sincerely believed the reason stated in the article. At this point Domo responds with a "No", short for "No, that is not the reason we switched classes on our team." For what reason would anyone ever respond with a "No" here if they actually know it's a joke? I explain in a crude manner that it was a joke, and offense is taken by "Pred" who posts a comic he uses to assassinate my character.
A better explanation for what actually happened:
A. Someone poking fun at a group with demonstrably false information.
B. Person from said group responding and saying that the information is actually false, without realising that he is aware of this.
C. Explains it's a joke
D. Says the guy poking fun at them is just craving attention and playing retarded.
Again, this more accurately represents the actual situation.
I even made my own comic of this situation, in an exaggerated manner:
http://imgur.com/F9JUJAT
Cribbyur trying too hard collaideBut you're not showing me how I'm wrong... :/
You're not even saying I'm wrong... :o
Which makes your comment useless. xD
Crayondon't think criticising the very forum you are posting in is the right way to go1. You're still not refuting anything I say.
unless you're intending to further alienate yourself
2. You already have some sort of grudge against me from before, and it's not like 3/6 team would ever talk to me anyway. I know my post is pathetic but that doesn't stop it from being CORRECT.
yo honestly, same
[quote=Collaide][quote=Pred][quote=Collaide]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke[/quote]
https://i.imgur.com/n8umjWj.png[/quote]
That's this entire forum in a nutshell though
EDIT:
The picture you linked is honestly retarded, and is a large part of the reason why most online communities are toxic.
Before I get started into this essay written by a no-lifer like myself, I will say that however clever my refutation of this idiotic comic ever will be, you can always turn back and say you were just joking as well. This following bit is a precautionary refutation:
[spoiler][i]In a clever form the argument could be something like this:
"Well, Collaide YOU claimed we didn't understand the joke, but then you didn't understand the joke picture I posted! What an utter hypocrisy! We may or may not have understood your joke but that doesn't matter because you didn't understand OUR joke!! Haha! Gotcha!"
But no, you did not get me. You know for a fact that the majority of the people who upvoted your retarded comment do in fact believe it applies to the situation at hand. Either you also believe so, or most people on this forum believes so. And in case you believed so at the moment of posting that picture, you still can get a "pass" by just flipping and claiming it to be a joke.
So please don't claim that it's a joke, because it makes you look like you flopped on the issue, which is, what this argument ultimately accuses me of doing. And as I said previously, this bit is merely in case you believed it at the time, if you didn't, the upfraggers did. [/i][/spoiler]
Back to the picture at hand.
It frames a rather interesting situation where someone is obnoxiously retarded in hopes of getting attention, ends up not getting attention and told to leave the discussion, and afterwards the individual in question feels hopelessness, and an empty void that could have been filled with confirmation.
[i]A. Unfunny Statement from person craving attention
B. Telling person who wrote/said unfunny statement to leave
C. Unfunny-Statement-Guy gets sad cuz he got rejected[/i]
Sure you may not find my joke funny in any way. You may think it was childish, ignorant, annoying, offensive or a whole spectrum of other thingsm, but ultimately I was not playing mentally handicapped just to get attention or confirmation. I was making a joke intended at poking fun at the members of 3/6 while at the same time complimenting Muuki's achievment, in a sense, saying his achievments made 3/6 tilt so hard they in fact had to change classes to stay interested in playing tf2 for the remainder of the season. This of course was not what actually happened. Before I posted that comment, I had already read the community news about degu joining 3/6 and the players changing roles, and I sincerely believed the reason stated in [url=http://www.teamfortress.tv/39623/degu-replaces-nation-on-3-6-team-swaps-roles]the article[/url]. At this point Domo responds with a "No", short for "No, that is not the reason we switched classes on our team." For what reason would anyone ever respond with a "No" here if they actually know it's a joke? I explain in a crude manner that it was a joke, and offense is taken by "Pred" who posts a comic he uses to assassinate my character.
[b][i]A better explanation for what actually happened:[/i][/b]
[i]A. Someone poking fun at a group with demonstrably false information.
B. Person from said group responding and saying that the information is actually false, without realising that he is aware of this.
C. Explains it's a joke
D. Says the guy poking fun at them is just craving attention and playing retarded.[/i]
Again, this more accurately represents the actual situation.
I even made my own comic of this situation, in an exaggerated manner:
http://imgur.com/F9JUJAT
[quote=Cribby]ur trying too hard collaide[/quote]
But you're not showing me how I'm wrong... :/
You're not even saying I'm wrong... :o
Which makes your comment useless. xD
[quote=Crayon]don't think criticising the very forum you are posting in is the right way to go
unless you're intending to further alienate yourself[/quote]
1. You're still not refuting anything I say.
2. You already have some sort of grudge against me from before, and it's not like 3/6 team would ever talk to me anyway. I know my post is pathetic but that doesn't stop it from being CORRECT.[/quote]
yo honestly, same
https://i.imgur.com/n8umjWj.png[/quote]
That's this entire forum in a nutshell though
EDIT:
The picture you linked is honestly retarded, and is a large part of the reason why most online communities are toxic.
Before I get started into this essay written by a no-lifer like myself, I will say that however clever my refutation of this idiotic comic ever will be, you can always turn back and say you were just joking as well. This following bit is a precautionary refutation:
[spoiler][i]In a clever form the argument could be something like this:
"Well, Collaide YOU claimed we didn't understand the joke, but then you didn't understand the joke picture I posted! What an utter hypocrisy! We may or may not have understood your joke but that doesn't matter because you didn't understand OUR joke!! Haha! Gotcha!"
But no, you did not get me. You know for a fact that the majority of the people who upvoted your retarded comment do in fact believe it applies to the situation at hand. Either you also believe so, or most people on this forum believes so. And in case you believed so at the moment of posting that picture, you still can get a "pass" by just flipping and claiming it to be a joke.
So please don't claim that it's a joke, because it makes you look like you flopped on the issue, which is, what this argument ultimately accuses me of doing. And as I said previously, this bit is merely in case you believed it at the time, if you didn't, the upfraggers did. [/i][/spoiler]
Back to the picture at hand.
It frames a rather interesting situation where someone is obnoxiously retarded in hopes of getting attention, ends up not getting attention and told to leave the discussion, and afterwards the individual in question feels hopelessness, and an empty void that could have been filled with confirmation.
[i]A. Unfunny Statement from person craving attention
B. Telling person who wrote/said unfunny statement to leave
C. Unfunny-Statement-Guy gets sad cuz he got rejected[/i]
Sure you may not find my joke funny in any way. You may think it was childish, ignorant, annoying, offensive or a whole spectrum of other thingsm, but ultimately I was not playing mentally handicapped just to get attention or confirmation. I was making a joke intended at poking fun at the members of 3/6 while at the same time complimenting Muuki's achievment, in a sense, saying his achievments made 3/6 tilt so hard they in fact had to change classes to stay interested in playing tf2 for the remainder of the season. This of course was not what actually happened. Before I posted that comment, I had already read the community news about degu joining 3/6 and the players changing roles, and I sincerely believed the reason stated in [url=http://www.teamfortress.tv/39623/degu-replaces-nation-on-3-6-team-swaps-roles]the article[/url]. At this point Domo responds with a "No", short for "No, that is not the reason we switched classes on our team." For what reason would anyone ever respond with a "No" here if they actually know it's a joke? I explain in a crude manner that it was a joke, and offense is taken by "Pred" who posts a comic he uses to assassinate my character.
[b][i]A better explanation for what actually happened:[/i][/b]
[i]A. Someone poking fun at a group with demonstrably false information.
B. Person from said group responding and saying that the information is actually false, without realising that he is aware of this.
C. Explains it's a joke
D. Says the guy poking fun at them is just craving attention and playing retarded.[/i]
Again, this more accurately represents the actual situation.
I even made my own comic of this situation, in an exaggerated manner:
http://imgur.com/F9JUJAT
[quote=Cribby]ur trying too hard collaide[/quote]
But you're not showing me how I'm wrong... :/
You're not even saying I'm wrong... :o
Which makes your comment useless. xD
[quote=Crayon]don't think criticising the very forum you are posting in is the right way to go
unless you're intending to further alienate yourself[/quote]
1. You're still not refuting anything I say.
2. You already have some sort of grudge against me from before, and it's not like 3/6 team would ever talk to me anyway. I know my post is pathetic but that doesn't stop it from being CORRECT.[/quote]
yo honestly, same
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