For myself the troll weapons are the ones that will never make a difference in an actual round beyond pissing off the other team. Ex. Holiday Punch, Rocket and Sticky Jumper. Obviously this line varies but I can't understand why anyone would think weapons that do literally no damage and replace a stock item and weapons that are legitimately only ever used for trolling should be allowed.

this isn't necessarily perfect but it's a lot closer to what I would want to see http://whitelist.tf/7168

Literally like 20 career med mains in this thread have all said they liked med better without Xbow can we stop trying to use the argument that xbow makes med more fun because it really doesn't

The people that say medic is only fun because of the arrows are the ones that couldn't cut it on a fragging class.

im only good with the xbow pls dont ruin my career as a mid open med

That's a pretty subjective point though. 20 career med mains can feel that way without it invalidating the opinions of any other meds. Fun is harder to rule on objectively than balance. I agree that the crossbow is unbalanced, but I also agree that it makes medic more fun.

Running Crossbow is 1000% less fun than needles. It gets really annoying to have to arrow people all the time and listening to them complain when they want one in a bad spot and die or move and you miss. Medic with needles is way more relaxing to play. Also getting needle frags and winning a round because of it is one of the best feelings in the game.

it turns meds into either gods or shitters so theres no inbetween

heh

losing to the 13th seed open team revoked your meme license sorry

ETF2L banned the crossbow for the one night cup tomorrow

I'm excited, really curious to see how it plays without it

...?

this post makes no sense

people who think medic should have its only aim requirement removed are the ones who couldn't cut it on a fragging class, surely

most people who only like medic because of arrows are the ones who play fragging classes and don't usually play med...

xbow makes med more fun

Literally 1 Skeez in this thread has said he likes med better with Xbow can we stop trying to use the argument that xbow makes med less fun because it really doesn't

you're not even a med main you just started playing it because it was the only way someone would pick you up in invite.

you are a decent med though so at least you didn't botch that part

I want crossbow banned even though it means I'll embarrassingly lose all my 1v1s with medics when they needle me to death.

no i do not think the crossbow should be banned -shade

pack it up boys

https://clips.twitch.tv/WittyTangentialWebSoBayed

a random swedish highlander sniper with 60 followers on twitter since 2012 and a face that screams "Im depressed and I mooch off my parents"

Better take his comment pretty seriously

very convenient for you to look over the other things ive done in etf2l :) get good get lmaobox

also sorry i dont use my twitter much... im sure you can still see the 2 prem winner medals on there though lucrative...

only 60 twitter followers? now that's pathetic

The crossbow is a terrible addition because of burst healing, ranged healing and fluctuated uber rates and heal numbers in general. I absolutely despise the weapon since it doesn't reward damage and just breaks healing in general. It removes several skillsets such as but not limited to keeping track of crit heals, not taking chip damage to lose said crit heals, managing overheals effectively and positioning/managemen. A lot of skillsets are now in the past because "medic aim/clutch arrows" and "its okay if both teams can use it" (which doesnt validate the weapon at all lol). You're essentially forced to use it currently and the game feels dumb/random at times, be it from shooting still standing targets at range who immediately can fight again or shoot a choke where people are fighting for a random chance at -75/+150

More soldier nerfs please

hopefully well enough to disprove this stupid idea that the crossbow makes med more fun

Why is everyone so dismissive of actual arguements for keeping the crossbow? Like ok judging by +frags more people are in favour of banning it but does that mean that they are right? Should we not try to discuss and counter each others arguments as well as we can so that we can get somewhere constructively?

I feel like there's been a few posts that actually have valid arguments for the crossbow that no one has invalidated with thoughtful counter arguments besides shit like 'ofc u like cbow ur bad haha'. Maybe people are hesitant to argue for the crossbow because they don't wanna get downfragged? I've not really decided where I stand on the issue but I've been arguing for the crossbow in this thread because I think that side is being underrepresented, and I think we should have a balanced argument so we can raise valid constructive criticism.

I fully expect to just get downfragged because I'm not slandering the weapon - but this is a more complicated topic of discussion and there are many many dynamics in the game that are affected by the crossbow.

In terms of whitelists, i agree that the current whitelist is way too open, but I'm trying to focus on the crossbow here because I don't want people coming to false conclusions because of bandwagoning. Shoutouts to botmode for making very valid points in #147.

I don't think anyone's denying that the crossbow does have some valid things to offer. Maybe not going out of the way to mention it, because you're arguing a point here, but no one's saying "it has literally nothing good about it." It is a fun weapon to use mechanically, even if people (myself included) will argue that it makes the game overall a lot less fun (that said, it's not entirely bad and there are benefits too, but it's a matter of which one outweighs the other). It's a shame too because it used to be a pretty well balanced sidegrade, and fundamentally nothing about what made it good then has changed.

It's just that at this point, with the current amount of buffs it's been given and what it ended up changing about the game, it takes away more than it gives. The game is, imo, overall worse off now than before the crossbow got so many buffs. It would be great if that wasn't the case and we could revert to an earlier version that didn't have the problems introduced through constant buffing, but we can't control balance other than through bans. And if something is overall hurtful to the game, even if it does have good things about it, imo we should ban it.

I'm talking mostly from a spectator pov though, so I've definitely got bias towards the overall game vs individual medic mechanics, but that's just my 2 cents.

the problem with the crossbow is that while using it is pretty fun, as it allows you as a medic to be useful from long distances and help your team out in a way that isn't just being a mobile dispenser that can make people invincible once every 40-50 seconds, it creates so many problems in so many scenarios where players either don't die when they've been outplayed, or don't retreat when they've been spammed out. watching old tf2 matches isn't a good idea anymore if you're trying to learn how to play because in old matches when a player took spam rockets he had to get off high ground to go get healed by the med, which allowed for a soldier bomb or something else to happen. similarly, in old tf2 matches players had to efficiently rotate heals in order to keep the pressure off their med. this skill is now gone because the crossbow heals for so much. my proposed change to the crossbow is for it to heal over time at 24hp/s like the medi gun for like 2-3 seconds, and be affected by crit heals. now, you get the best of both worlds, where the med can still hit fat arrows and feel good about themselves and players not wanting to kill themselves because the person they were 1v1ing randomly gets 100 more hp.

#205
I think theres a lot that it adds that is being overlooked, so it's easy to think of it as taking away more than it gives - see my post #103 - and I am not arguing about the 'fun' it adds to the class, I'm talking strictly about the depth of game dynamics/mechanics on both an individual and team level.

#206
People didn't 'have to' rotate heals - they did it because it was a more optimal way of playing, and that is still the case - the skill is by no means 'gone'. It's just easier to not account for this and think one dimensionally and rely on arrows. Watch 7 play and it is remarkable how well they rotate heals and use it to their advantage. They optimise their play in small regards like that and it makes a massive difference yet other EU teams haven't been good enough to work on the nuanced stuff to contest them. If people understood stuff like rotating heals better we wouldn't be having this one sided a debate over the crossbow, but this is a result of the skill level declining over the years, because more and more people don't understand the complexities of the game dynamics at hand.

banning crossbow nerfs soldier which is the weakest class in the 6v6 meta. scouts with crazy aim already control games, this would just make it worse. however it is annoying when pocket soldiers take 500 dmg (medico), but i dont think this justifies banning the unlock

edit: of course the arrow building is broken as fuck and ruins parts of the game. but hopefully the uber build gets removed from the weapon, and we get the old crossbow back

#208 also lmao we can ban the crossbow without valve but we can't revert the medic movement speed without valve. Playing soldier without arrows vs scouts that have scout speed medics with them constantly - ROFL do we not realise how ridiculous that sounds and how much of a buff that is to scout? Let's not forget that the biggest scout buff wasn't even an update that affected the scout class, it was the demo nerf.. can we not see a pattern here?

Rofl. Except I have significantly more play time on medic than scout if you include highlander and 6s.

Please don't use that to discredit my knowledge or experience on medic because it is still significantly higher than yours despite only playing it to make invite.