This is simply a discussion I wanted to start on the viability of seeing Attack/Defend, specifically the standard "one team attacks, one team defends" type, become a gamemode played regularly in 6v6 in the future.
In my eyes the current Pros/Cons to this would have to be:
Pros:
-Increases the diversity of team setups - some offclasses will have more purposes than just to simply hold last or get a quick pick
-Prevents the 5cp "Stalemate" effect by forcing offensive teams to try and push against the defensive team, and giving incentive to do so in that if the offensive team fails, they won't lose any captured points.
-This would also likely widen the appeal of 6v6 to new players, as Attack/Defend, and the classes that would become useful because of it, would increase interest in competitive play.
-Teams would have to come up with brand new strategies, we won't see most of the same old plays anymore.
Cons:
-There aren't any Attack/Defend maps currently that I would call "able to be played in 6v6 comfortably." Gravelpit is probably the closest we've got, and it did work for many seasons, but there's reasons why it hasn't been played in years.
-Not everyone likes change, adding this gamemode could anger or annoy a pretty large portion of the active competitive community.
-Attack/Defend has not been tried in competitive in general with the exception of small events, singular seasons, and the use of non-standard A/D maps such as Gravelpit and Standin. Dustbowl has been tried, but only for a couple seasons in the very beginning.
-Attack/Defend has the potential to be a very slow gamemode.
Let's say that we completely reworked the gamemode and included new maps that were made to give it a much more satisfying feel, would the gamemode become viable in the game? My idea is to follow the Mountainlab system of 3 control points and non-multistage, but work what we've learned from 5CP and KOTH into the mix.
Give me your thoughts, this is not necessarily a thread that's solely for me to have questions answered, but for the community to think about it and discuss.
And no, I'm not the first who has thought of this, the first to have brought it up, or a brand new player that's trying to advocate for it's inclusion. I am solely making this thread to discuss the topic as I feel that at least a few other people may have had the thought on their minds too.
This is simply a discussion I wanted to start on the viability of seeing Attack/Defend, specifically the standard "one team attacks, one team defends" type, become a gamemode played regularly in 6v6 in the future.
In my eyes the current Pros/Cons to this would have to be:
[b]Pros:[/b]
[i]-Increases the diversity of team setups - some offclasses will have more purposes than just to simply hold last or get a quick pick
-Prevents the 5cp "Stalemate" effect by forcing offensive teams to try and push against the defensive team, and giving incentive to do so in that if the offensive team fails, they won't lose any captured points.
-This would also likely widen the appeal of 6v6 to new players, as Attack/Defend, and the classes that would become useful because of it, would increase interest in competitive play.
-Teams would have to come up with brand new strategies, we won't see most of the same old plays anymore.[/i]
[b]Cons:[/b]
[i]-There aren't any Attack/Defend maps currently that I would call "able to be played in 6v6 comfortably." Gravelpit is probably the closest we've got, and it did work for many seasons, but there's reasons why it hasn't been played in years.
-Not everyone likes change, adding this gamemode could anger or annoy a pretty large portion of the active competitive community.
-Attack/Defend has not been tried in competitive in general with the exception of small events, singular seasons, and the use of non-standard A/D maps such as Gravelpit and Standin. Dustbowl has been tried, but only for a couple seasons in the very beginning.
-Attack/Defend has the potential to be a very slow gamemode.[/i]
Let's say that we completely reworked the gamemode and included new maps that were made to give it a much more satisfying feel, would the gamemode become viable in the game? My idea is to follow the Mountainlab system of 3 control points and non-multistage, but work what we've learned from 5CP and KOTH into the mix.
Give me your thoughts, this is not necessarily a thread that's solely for me to have questions answered, but for the community to think about it and discuss.
And no, I'm not the first who has thought of this, the first to have brought it up, or a brand new player that's trying to advocate for it's inclusion. I am solely making this thread to discuss the topic as I feel that at least a few other people may have had the thought on their minds too.
Because playing against full time engineer is fun.
Seriously though, I don't think most of the A/D maps out there would work. It would be tough to make the map balanced and fun for players- too easy for the offense is just a roll, too easy for the defense is an eternal stalemate with people sacking over and over to get something done.
If anything it would be less interesting than 5CP because there is no risk for the attacking team. They can sit there and do 4 man's until something happens without penalty, whereas in 5cp you would get punished for that.
I don't know. Maybe a map could be made that would be just perfect but I don't see it.
Because playing against full time engineer is fun.
Seriously though, I don't think most of the A/D maps out there would work. It would be tough to make the map balanced and fun for players- too easy for the offense is just a roll, too easy for the defense is an eternal stalemate with people sacking over and over to get something done.
If anything it would be less interesting than 5CP because there is no risk for the attacking team. They can sit there and do 4 man's until something happens without penalty, whereas in 5cp you would get punished for that.
I don't know. Maybe a map could be made that would be just perfect but I don't see it.
1 hour scrim per map
/thread
1 hour scrim per map
/thread
Steel has an interesting mechanic where the last point is unlocked all the time. Usually when there are more than 1 unlocked points on a A/D map in 6s people often opt to just throw away one of the points and not try to contest it ( gpit). However with steel, if the last point gets capped, it means that you lose the game which forces red to run more mobile classes to contest the last point. I personally like steel, but i know most people here do not. Maybe there could be a map that has the same mechanics and amount of versatility as steel?
Steel has an interesting mechanic where the last point is unlocked all the time. Usually when there are more than 1 unlocked points on a A/D map in 6s people often opt to just throw away one of the points and not try to contest it ( gpit). However with steel, if the last point gets capped, it means that you lose the game which forces red to run more mobile classes to contest the last point. I personally like steel, but i know most people here do not. Maybe there could be a map that has the same mechanics and amount of versatility as steel?
fuck that gpit was aids. although that was partly because it was played 3 times as a bo3 for some reason.
fuck that gpit was aids. although that was partly because it was played 3 times as a bo3 for some reason.
I think there's a lot of untapped potential there, and it should be experimented with more.
I think there's a lot of untapped potential there, and it should be experimented with more.
Follow up question: Has steel been even playtested? Genuinely curious
Follow up question: Has steel been even playtested? Genuinely curious
diamond0wnerFollow up question: Has steel been even playtested? Genuinely curious
Considering how hostile the HL community is against it I doubt it's been properly tested ever in 6's. I think it would be neat to playtest, though.
You really can't go with what the current A/D maps in the Valve rotation, etc, as a reference to how it'd be in 6's though. If Mountainlab was more open and was more than just a ton of shitty choke points I'd say it'd be interesting to test how it'd play out, since my vision for A/D would be that 3 points to capture would be the most balanced and enjoyable.
Yeah, it may seem like it'd just always be either a roll on one side or a long stalemate, but we don't have any maps that are good enough to truly see if the potential exists for a more diverse 6v6 map pool. With maps like 2Gorge, yeah I'd definitely see it being a terrible experience, but imagine if someone took the openness of say Sunshine and made a A/D map based off that.
I'd be more than happy to make a test map based on community feedback to test this, as I have plenty of experience using hammer from jump/bhop mapping, but I'm not going to make it a super pretty and detailed map because I don't have the experience of making high detail maps.
[quote=diamond0wner]Follow up question: Has steel been even playtested? Genuinely curious[/quote]
Considering how hostile the HL community is against it I doubt it's been properly tested ever in 6's. I think it would be neat to playtest, though.
You really can't go with what the current A/D maps in the Valve rotation, etc, as a reference to how it'd be in 6's though. If Mountainlab was more open and was more than just a ton of shitty choke points I'd say it'd be interesting to test how it'd play out, since my vision for A/D would be that 3 points to capture would be the most balanced and enjoyable.
Yeah, it may seem like it'd just always be either a roll on one side or a long stalemate, but we don't have any maps that are good enough to truly see if the potential exists for a more diverse 6v6 map pool. With maps like 2Gorge, yeah I'd definitely see it being a terrible experience, but imagine if someone took the openness of say Sunshine and made a A/D map based off that.
I'd be more than happy to make a test map based on community feedback to test this, as I have plenty of experience using hammer from jump/bhop mapping, but I'm not going to make it a super pretty and detailed map because I don't have the experience of making high detail maps.
mikersdiamond0wnerFollow up question: Has steel been even playtested? Genuinely curious
Considering how hostile the HL community is against it I doubt it's been properly tested ever in 6's. I think it would be neat to playtest, though.
You really can't go with what the current A/D maps in the Valve rotation, etc, as a reference to how it'd be in 6's though. If Mountainlab was more open and was more than just a ton of shitty choke points I'd say it'd be interesting to test how it'd play out, since my vision for A/D would be that 3 points to capture would be the most balanced and enjoyable.
Yeah, it may seem like it'd just always be either a roll on one side or a long stalemate, but we don't have any maps that are good enough to truly see if the potential exists for a more diverse 6v6 map pool. With maps like 2Gorge, yeah I'd definitely see it being a terrible experience, but imagine if someone took the openness of say Sunshine and made a A/D map based off that.
I'd be more than happy to make a test map based on community feedback to test this, as I have plenty of experience using hammer from jump/bhop mapping, but I'm not going to make it a super pretty and detailed map because I don't have the experience of making high detail maps.
I heard that the HL community actually likes this map because it isn't emphasized that much on sniper duels and bc there is more strategy than other HL maps
[quote=mikers][quote=diamond0wner]Follow up question: Has steel been even playtested? Genuinely curious[/quote]
Considering how hostile the HL community is against it I doubt it's been properly tested ever in 6's. I think it would be neat to playtest, though.
You really can't go with what the current A/D maps in the Valve rotation, etc, as a reference to how it'd be in 6's though. If Mountainlab was more open and was more than just a ton of shitty choke points I'd say it'd be interesting to test how it'd play out, since my vision for A/D would be that 3 points to capture would be the most balanced and enjoyable.
Yeah, it may seem like it'd just always be either a roll on one side or a long stalemate, but we don't have any maps that are good enough to truly see if the potential exists for a more diverse 6v6 map pool. With maps like 2Gorge, yeah I'd definitely see it being a terrible experience, but imagine if someone took the openness of say Sunshine and made a A/D map based off that.
I'd be more than happy to make a test map based on community feedback to test this, as I have plenty of experience using hammer from jump/bhop mapping, but I'm not going to make it a super pretty and detailed map because I don't have the experience of making high detail maps.[/quote]
I heard that the HL community actually likes this map because it isn't emphasized that much on sniper duels and bc there is more strategy than other HL maps
diamond0wnermikersdiamond0wnerFollow up question: Has steel been even playtested? Genuinely curious
Considering how hostile the HL community is against it I doubt it's been properly tested ever in 6's. I think it would be neat to playtest, though.
You really can't go with what the current A/D maps in the Valve rotation, etc, as a reference to how it'd be in 6's though. If Mountainlab was more open and was more than just a ton of shitty choke points I'd say it'd be interesting to test how it'd play out, since my vision for A/D would be that 3 points to capture would be the most balanced and enjoyable.
Yeah, it may seem like it'd just always be either a roll on one side or a long stalemate, but we don't have any maps that are good enough to truly see if the potential exists for a more diverse 6v6 map pool. With maps like 2Gorge, yeah I'd definitely see it being a terrible experience, but imagine if someone took the openness of say Sunshine and made a A/D map based off that.
I'd be more than happy to make a test map based on community feedback to test this, as I have plenty of experience using hammer from jump/bhop mapping, but I'm not going to make it a super pretty and detailed map because I don't have the experience of making high detail maps.
I heard that the HL community actually likes this map because it isn't emphasized that much on sniper duels and bc there is more strategy than other HL maps
Sorry I didn't really word that right.
The HL community tends to hate it in pugs/lobbies, which is all I really ever get a part of since I mostly sub in HL.
I know that teams tend to enjoy it (assuming they know how to play it right) in actual play because it's an excellent break from the standard "snipers #1" system.
[quote=diamond0wner][quote=mikers][quote=diamond0wner]Follow up question: Has steel been even playtested? Genuinely curious[/quote]
Considering how hostile the HL community is against it I doubt it's been properly tested ever in 6's. I think it would be neat to playtest, though.
You really can't go with what the current A/D maps in the Valve rotation, etc, as a reference to how it'd be in 6's though. If Mountainlab was more open and was more than just a ton of shitty choke points I'd say it'd be interesting to test how it'd play out, since my vision for A/D would be that 3 points to capture would be the most balanced and enjoyable.
Yeah, it may seem like it'd just always be either a roll on one side or a long stalemate, but we don't have any maps that are good enough to truly see if the potential exists for a more diverse 6v6 map pool. With maps like 2Gorge, yeah I'd definitely see it being a terrible experience, but imagine if someone took the openness of say Sunshine and made a A/D map based off that.
I'd be more than happy to make a test map based on community feedback to test this, as I have plenty of experience using hammer from jump/bhop mapping, but I'm not going to make it a super pretty and detailed map because I don't have the experience of making high detail maps.[/quote]
I heard that the HL community actually likes this map because it isn't emphasized that much on sniper duels and bc there is more strategy than other HL maps[/quote]
Sorry I didn't really word that right.
The HL community tends to hate it in pugs/lobbies, which is all I really ever get a part of since I mostly sub in HL.
I know that teams tend to enjoy it (assuming they know how to play it right) in actual play because it's an excellent break from the standard "snipers #1" system.
#10
Snipers still own in it but (higher level) teams tend to enjoy it because it's the most tactical map in the game where strategy/tactics/comms wins the day over DM, so it's a nice change of pace to the more DM heavy maps. Plus every class really gets to shine on it hardcore and be relatively important.
Lower level teams tend to hate it for the same reason tho.
(and that is why it sucks in PUGs/lobbies)
#1
You mentioned like all these cons except one of the biggest reasons people actually stopped playing Gravel Pit which is that it's super stressful and comes down to whichever team doesn't play immaculately and makes the bigger mistake. While mistakes matter in every other map, you can generally recover because you're not directly playing against the timer so significantly - mostly just the score - until the timer gets low (dependent on half/score). In GPit, mistakes can't be recovered from they just punish you super significantly and you have to hope the other team makes an equal amount of significant mistake or worse to actually win.
I remember this being the main complaint personally, but it was 4 years ago so I might be off on that. It was a pretty significant complaint tho, quite a few Invite players who complained about it. The map just doesn't have enough depth to allow you to mitigate mistakes to come out ahead, something Steel doesn't really have because if you fuck up your defense or w/e you can try some wacky pushes like A-E or A-B-E to recover. GPit is just too linear in comparison.
#10
Snipers still own in it but (higher level) teams tend to enjoy it because it's the most tactical map in the game where strategy/tactics/comms wins the day over DM, so it's a nice change of pace to the more DM heavy maps. Plus every class really gets to shine on it hardcore and be relatively important.
Lower level teams tend to hate it for the same reason tho.
(and that is why it sucks in PUGs/lobbies)
#1
You mentioned like all these cons except one of the biggest reasons people actually stopped playing Gravel Pit which is that it's super stressful and comes down to whichever team doesn't play immaculately and makes the bigger mistake. While mistakes matter in every other map, you can generally recover because you're not directly playing against the timer so significantly - mostly just the score - until the timer gets low (dependent on half/score). In GPit, mistakes can't be recovered from they just punish you super significantly and you have to hope the other team makes an equal amount of significant mistake or worse to actually win.
I remember this being the main complaint personally, but it was 4 years ago so I might be off on that. It was a pretty significant complaint tho, quite a few Invite players who complained about it. The map just doesn't have enough depth to allow you to mitigate mistakes to come out ahead, something Steel doesn't really have because if you fuck up your defense or w/e you can try some wacky pushes like A-E or A-B-E to recover. GPit is just too linear in comparison.