so most competitive games have a team size of 5 but tf2 has 6. how did we end up with the extra player? were we right to reach this conclusion? what makes say, 4s or 5s less good? if bans were lifted, what would players likely gravitate towards in their team formations and strategies? i've always had the nagging feeling that tf2 competitive should totally gravitate towards what is most effective, rather than banning broken things for stalematiness or whatever other problem. on one hand competitive might be a bit more shit but on the other hand maybe valve would put some more effort into balancing the weapons rather than not doing anything for the longest time, since players would be subjected to the poor balancing.
questions about 6s team size and more
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
so most competitive games have a team size of 5 but tf2 has 6. how did we end up with the extra player? were we right to reach this conclusion? what makes say, 4s or 5s less good? if bans were lifted, what would players likely gravitate towards in their team formations and strategies? i've always had the nagging feeling that tf2 competitive should totally gravitate towards what is most effective, rather than banning broken things for stalematiness or whatever other problem. on one hand competitive might be a bit more shit but on the other hand maybe valve would put some more effort into balancing the weapons rather than not doing anything for the longest time, since players would be subjected to the poor balancing.
branflakesso most competitive games have a team size of 5 but tf2 has 6. how did we end up with the extra player? were we right to reach this conclusion? what makes say, 4s or 5s less good?
I wasn't around when this was decided, but I've played 4's and even played 5's pugs one time and let me tell both formats are fucking awful compared to 6s.
branflakesif bans were lifted, what would players likely gravitate towards in their team formations and strategies
They'd gravitate to other games because things are banned for pretty decent reasons these days.
branflakesi've always had the nagging feeling that tf2 competitive should totally gravitate towards what is most effective, rather than banning broken things for stalematiness or whatever other problem. on one hand competitive might be a bit more shit but on the other hand maybe valve would put some more effort into balancing the weapons rather than not doing anything for the longest time, since players would be subjected to the poor balancing.
Valve doesn't balance around comp.
[quote=branflakes]so most competitive games have a team size of 5 but tf2 has 6. how did we end up with the extra player? were we right to reach this conclusion? what makes say, 4s or 5s less good?[/quote]
I wasn't around when this was decided, but I've played 4's and even played 5's pugs one time and let me tell both formats are fucking awful compared to 6s.
[quote=branflakes]if bans were lifted, what would players likely gravitate towards in their team formations and strategies[/quote]
They'd gravitate to other games because things are banned for pretty decent reasons these days.
[quote=branflakes]i've always had the nagging feeling that tf2 competitive should totally gravitate towards what is most effective, rather than banning broken things for stalematiness or whatever other problem. on one hand competitive might be a bit more shit but on the other hand maybe valve would put some more effort into balancing the weapons rather than not doing anything for the longest time, since players would be subjected to the poor balancing.[/quote]
Valve doesn't balance around comp.
I wasn't around when this was decided, but I've played 4's and even played 5's pugs one time and let me tell both formats are fucking awful compared to 6s.
[quote=branflakes]if bans were lifted, what would players likely gravitate towards in their team formations and strategies[/quote]
They'd gravitate to other games because things are banned for pretty decent reasons these days.
[quote=branflakes]i've always had the nagging feeling that tf2 competitive should totally gravitate towards what is most effective, rather than banning broken things for stalematiness or whatever other problem. on one hand competitive might be a bit more shit but on the other hand maybe valve would put some more effort into balancing the weapons rather than not doing anything for the longest time, since players would be subjected to the poor balancing.[/quote]
Valve doesn't balance around comp.
There was a time when 5s was really being pushed - around s5-6 or so if I remember correctly (in ESEA) as I recall Orzo was a big proponent of giving it a try, but mostly nobody really cared for it much and the idea was left to die.
There was a time when 5s was really being pushed - around s5-6 or so if I remember correctly (in ESEA) as I recall Orzo was a big proponent of giving it a try, but mostly nobody really cared for it much and the idea was left to die.
Your argument is flawed from the start.
Just because other e-sports use a specific low number of players due to their gameplay design does not mean that going to that number of players is necessarily better in Team Fortress 2.
Real sports have a massive variety in the amount of players they employ and they're all pretty popular.
You pick player counts based on what works with the overall game. This would be like saying "hey American Football, Soccer, and Field Hockey all use 11 players, why doesn't Basketball use 11 players??"
Valve has specifically balanced things due to competitive very few times. (#2 is incorrect, they've done it before in the past and said as such publicly) But again, it's very VERY few times in 10 years. It's not worth betting on them doing it more until they actively do it more.
Your argument is flawed from the start.
Just because other e-sports use a specific low number of players due to their gameplay design does not mean that going to that number of players is necessarily better in Team Fortress 2.
Real sports have a massive variety in the amount of players they employ and they're all pretty popular.
You pick player counts based on what works with the overall game. This would be like saying "hey American Football, Soccer, and Field Hockey all use 11 players, why doesn't Basketball use 11 players??"
Valve has specifically balanced things due to competitive very few times. (#2 is incorrect, they've done it before in the past and said as such publicly) But again, it's very VERY few times in 10 years. It's not worth betting on them doing it more until they actively do it more.
Just because other e-sports use a specific low number of players due to their gameplay design does not mean that going to that number of players is necessarily better in Team Fortress 2.
Real sports have a massive variety in the amount of players they employ and they're all pretty popular.
You pick player counts based on what works with the overall game. This would be like saying "hey American Football, Soccer, and Field Hockey all use 11 players, why doesn't Basketball use 11 players??"
Valve has specifically balanced things due to competitive very few times. (#2 is incorrect, they've done it before in the past and said as such publicly) But again, it's very VERY few times in 10 years. It's not worth betting on them doing it more until they actively do it more.
DarkNecridYour argument is flawed from the start.
Just because other e-sports use a specific low number of players due to their gameplay design does not mean that going to that number of players is necessarily better in Team Fortress 2.
Real sports have a massive variety in the amount of players they employ and they're all pretty popular.
You pick player counts based on what works with the overall game. This would be like saying "hey American Football, Soccer, and Field Hockey all use 11 players, why doesn't Basketball use 11 players??"
Valve has specifically balanced things due to competitive very few times. (#2 is incorrect, they've done it before in the past and said as such publicly) But again, it's very VERY few times in 10 years. It's not worth betting on them doing it more until they actively do it more.
wasn't saying we are wrong to use 6, i was asking why the difference existed at all and IF people think we should use a different amount.
[quote=DarkNecrid]Your argument is flawed from the start.
Just because other e-sports use a specific low number of players due to their gameplay design does not mean that going to that number of players is necessarily better in Team Fortress 2.
Real sports have a massive variety in the amount of players they employ and they're all pretty popular.
You pick player counts based on what works with the overall game. This would be like saying "hey American Football, Soccer, and Field Hockey all use 11 players, why doesn't Basketball use 11 players??"
Valve has specifically balanced things due to competitive very few times. (#2 is incorrect, they've done it before in the past and said as such publicly) But again, it's very VERY few times in 10 years. It's not worth betting on them doing it more until they actively do it more.[/quote]
wasn't saying we are wrong to use 6, i was asking why the difference existed at all and IF people think we should use a different amount.
Just because other e-sports use a specific low number of players due to their gameplay design does not mean that going to that number of players is necessarily better in Team Fortress 2.
Real sports have a massive variety in the amount of players they employ and they're all pretty popular.
You pick player counts based on what works with the overall game. This would be like saying "hey American Football, Soccer, and Field Hockey all use 11 players, why doesn't Basketball use 11 players??"
Valve has specifically balanced things due to competitive very few times. (#2 is incorrect, they've done it before in the past and said as such publicly) But again, it's very VERY few times in 10 years. It's not worth betting on them doing it more until they actively do it more.[/quote]
wasn't saying we are wrong to use 6, i was asking why the difference existed at all and IF people think we should use a different amount.
branflakeswasn't saying we are wrong to use 6, i was asking why the difference existed at all and IF people think we should use a different amount.
The difference exists because 10 years ago everyone who was interested in playing this game competitively tried everything from 4s to 12s and eventually 6v6 got settled on with the 4s/5s/7s/8s/9s(not Highlander) and above all dying out for their own individual problems, whether that was pacing or class balance or difficulty to formulate teams etc.
It's not like 1 dude came out and said "yeah this game is gonna be 6 versus 6" or something. Collectively thousands upon thousands of hours from many different people and many MANY different league attempts settled on this ages ago.
[quote=branflakes]
wasn't saying we are wrong to use 6, i was asking why the difference existed at all and IF people think we should use a different amount.[/quote]
The difference exists because 10 years ago everyone who was interested in playing this game competitively tried everything from 4s to 12s and eventually 6v6 got settled on with the 4s/5s/7s/8s/9s(not Highlander) and above all dying out for their own individual problems, whether that was pacing or class balance or difficulty to formulate teams etc.
It's not like 1 dude came out and said "yeah this game is gonna be 6 versus 6" or something. Collectively thousands upon thousands of hours from many different people and many MANY different league attempts settled on this ages ago.
wasn't saying we are wrong to use 6, i was asking why the difference existed at all and IF people think we should use a different amount.[/quote]
The difference exists because 10 years ago everyone who was interested in playing this game competitively tried everything from 4s to 12s and eventually 6v6 got settled on with the 4s/5s/7s/8s/9s(not Highlander) and above all dying out for their own individual problems, whether that was pacing or class balance or difficulty to formulate teams etc.
It's not like 1 dude came out and said "yeah this game is gonna be 6 versus 6" or something. Collectively thousands upon thousands of hours from many different people and many MANY different league attempts settled on this ages ago.
Sixes ends up being the most efficient way to frag and make progress in a map, if you could add a second demo or medic then you could get away with 5 (but then it ends up being something silly like pocket Medics on Scouts with a Roaming Demo).
One thing to note: Highlander only ends up existing because it's also a natural fit (one of everything? Sure!), but nobody likes to herd cats and that's what keeps it relegated to UGC.
Sixes ends up being the most efficient way to frag and make progress in a map, if you could add a second demo or medic then you could get away with 5 (but then it ends up being something silly like pocket Medics on Scouts with a Roaming Demo).
One thing to note: Highlander only ends up existing because it's also a natural fit (one of everything? Sure!), but nobody likes to herd cats and that's what keeps it relegated to UGC.
One thing to note: Highlander only ends up existing because it's also a natural fit (one of everything? Sure!), but nobody likes to herd cats and that's what keeps it relegated to UGC.
branflakeson one hand competitive might be a bit more shit but on the other hand maybe valve would put some more effort into balancing the weapons rather than not doing anything for the longest time
no they won't and the vast majority of players have no interest in playing an inferior gamemode now in the hopes that valve will make it on par with the current 6s at some vague point in the future
[quote=branflakes]on one hand competitive might be a bit more shit but on the other hand maybe valve would put some more effort into balancing the weapons rather than not doing anything for the longest time[/quote]
no they won't and the vast majority of players have no interest in playing an inferior gamemode now in the hopes that valve will make it on par with the current 6s at some vague point in the future
no they won't and the vast majority of players have no interest in playing an inferior gamemode now in the hopes that valve will make it on par with the current 6s at some vague point in the future
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