Anyways, now that the entire community agreed to limit 6s to 0 pyros at any time, how much time will it take for Crooked League Admins to update the configs?

https://i.imgur.com/oM7Rcz9.png

weebs can only play pyro so it wont be banned

agreed. if any admin dares disagree with this well-debated idea at this point then multiple direct comparisons to hitler's genocides would be warranted.

i cant remember when this was but im 99% sure its sarcastic

oh you sweet summer child. aside from it's obvious drawbacks with airblast, i did some testing. the dragon's fury's hitbox has the size of approximately 42.42 hammer units cubed, which is almost four times as large as the flamethrower's hitbox, and it has more range. not to mention, the max range is 500 hammer units and it moves at a speed of 3000 hammer units per second. in addition, if positioned right due to the size of the hitbox you could hit players that can't even see you. of course i'm not saying it's broken, it's just really dumb.

calling an actual pyro main with 6's invite experience a summer child...

experience doesn't always equal to knowledge on the technical side of things, and how such knowledge can be applied in practice. i do agree pyro is garbage, but that doesn't mean that his broken aspects are to be ignored.

I've used it in 7s and in the NA Essentials Cup(which are basically the only places you can run it) and i have 18000 posts arguing about Pyro mechanics on SPUF. I think i am qualified to say it is complete fucking trash.

Also, if the Dragon's Fury projectile is so easy to hit, why do you need "knowledge on the technical side of things" at all?

Having that knowledge gives you the feeling that it is easy to hit, which it is in fact. And furthermore, judging by it's design it is supposed to be used passively due to every other flamethrower out DPSing it. You cannot use the Dragon's Fury aggressively especially against other Pyros because of the burst damage it does compared to the broken flail 2 win design on every other flamethrower. Despite that it's a passive weapon, I believe it should be harder to aim with rather than make it's hitbox over half the size of the Scout's player model.

If this is what Valve intended, for this weapon to be used passively then I can see your point of it being shit, but Pyro doesn't always have to be offensive to be viable if balanced correctly.

inb4 pyro is an offense class but then i'll say and sniper is apparently labeled support

This makes no sense. if something is easy to hit then it's easy to hit. If you need knowledge to hit something then it isn't easy to hit.

Incorrect, it is impossible to play passively with this because it has shit range, slow switch speed, and shit airblast. You want Stock for maximum airblasts and afterburn, or Degreaser for fast switch speed, or Phlog for maximum idiot killing power, if you plan on playing passive or flexibly as a Pyro. This thing is literally only good for W+M1 and hiding around corners. You can't even stall Ubers with it.

It's actually pretty good against Pyros because of the slightly longer range and most Pyros don't have the reflect timing down because nobody runs it because it's fucking garbage. That's one of the better things about it.

But yes, flames are obviously better at killing things because they are much easier to hit than the Dragons' Fury (I'm happy to see you agree with me about that now) while also doing much more splash damage. Also, you're harder to kill with projectiles because of the threat of airblast, while the Dragon's Fury has large periods where you can't airblast, and you need to hold down m1 to keep faster firing rate, which means Soldiers and Demos feel safe blowing you up.

I...why would Valve want you to play passive with a flamethrower that can't airblast or charge Phlog off of Detonator spam? What the fuck are you talking about?

to make such a major adjustment to one of the nine classes now, this late in the games development, is just laughable and totally wrong.

I mean Demoknight is an example of Valve re purposing a class for a different playstyle (even though its garbage), and so is Gunslinger Engineer (a more viable option). I can see why it would be laughable because the playerbase is smaller than what we initially thought. But such changes are better than nothing, though such changes that we've gotten were in fact totally wrong. I personally don't expect much from Valve, but that doesn't stop interesting discussions and how developers can avoid such mistakes.

https://i.imgur.com/UvOQGY7.jpg

The weapon wasn't meant for airblasting. The Dragon's Fury was supposed to be what the Gunslinger was to the Engineer. A flip in roles, like Engy's defense role to a more offensive and as such Pyro from a more offensive to defensive. But seeing your argument on how it can be used offensively makes sense though. I can also agree that there are better options in most scenarios. I'll reword the last sentence correctly. Just because something is bad doesn't mean it cannot have some broken aspects of it. The Phlog (and Pyro as a whole) is a perfect example of that. Pyro cannot airblast with the weapon but is given the ability to increase his damage even further even without a kritz Medic. Not to mention his damage output even without crits. But then theres the aspects that most people agree on that Pyro has shit survivability and his only way of dealing damage is being right in your face. And the fact that he has rarely any ranged capabilities outside his flare gun, which to utilize effectively requires someone to be on fire, which is what you're supposed to be doing. Pyro in it's current state is complicated, and because of the Jungle Inferno changes it put him even further into a more complicated state.

Yes, that's true, but if something is a straight downgrade to the stock weapon while simultaneously being more difficult to use and punishing mistakes much harder, then it should not be banned, and nobody should be bitching about it.

The Phlog is not broken in any aspect except for animation canceling the taunt. It is a very, very shitty weapon.

See, when I said most people don't know what they're talking about, this is the sort of thing I mean. In terms of survivability, Pyro is second or third best, behind Scout and maybe Soldier. Pyro is immune to projectiles if the shooter isn't close to him, and can push anything in his face away from him with airblast, fucking up their aim and momentum, while also being really annoying to hit because you can't see anything through the stupid flame animation.

This is basically right. The Detonator and Scorch are actually really good at long range, but their mid-range damage is nonexistent. Meanwhile, Shotgun is worth running in short-mid range. You only get to pick one, and because Pyro is so slow, the enemy team that is not running Pyro gets to control the distance at which your teams are fighting, which means you should be fighting at a range you suck at fighting.

But yeah, I do mostly agree with this. Pyro is garbage with broken elements. I feel like people are forgetting what is broken about the Pyro. The stock flames are far too easy to hit and do stupid amounts of damage considering that. That's not going to change no matter how many unlocks you ban. Pyro will still be annoying when you're pushing into last and when holding Gullywash last, and it will still be garbage when you're not doing those things.

So please, just walk backwards and don't feed him rockets, instead of banning random unlocks.

This isn't a great attitude to have. You shouldn't dislike change on principle. You should dislike change because it leaves the game worse than it was before.

Jungle Inferno flamethrower is one of the worst changes they've made to the game. But it's not because it's different, it's because it's fucking dumb. We need to make sure we're looking past our instinctive hatred of change so we can provide accurate criticism and ensure the game we play is as fun as possible.

isnt that wat everyone wanted though? 80% of the forum wants that lg shit which is more major of an adjustment to wat we have now. idk if u are apart of that 80% but i didnt see any suggestion of their ideal pyro balance where it wasnt completely different to what we were used to

Well I don't agree. Don't speak for me.

Yes pyro is strong, yes pyro is too strong for the skill it requires, no I don't mind playing against him, yes I welcome some change, even towards a less skilled game, yes some secondaries could be banned as a small measure.

But to me, playing against a donkey dm scout or a pyro, or a good sniper is all the same. I'm dead in all three cases. The amount of skill it took for the opponent to kill me does not matter.
Fighting a pyro has its advantage : his damage output is easy to predict ( = a ton, always), therefore i know whats going to happen.
Same stuff vs heavy : jump the minigun, die all the time. Simple.
Scouts can be predictable too, but less. Especially as soldier, there are lots of cases where one goes in and must hope for the best, as if 100% of scout shots get hit, even with perfect timing, soldier dies before firing two rockets. We see lots of soldier plays in prem that go well just because enemy scouts whiff shots. I don't like dice rolls.
Speaking of dice rolls, what should I even say about sniper..

TLDR i don't get how fighting pyro frustrates you so much more than fighting scouts or snipers

scouts and snipers have lower health pools than a pyro
scouts and snipers don't reflect projectiles at me
scouts and snipers don't simply click and force me into a corner to die
i don't die to a scout or a sniper after i kill them
scouts and snipers damage in bursts, not consistently as long as they hold w and fire
i'm not blinded by the light of a thousand suns when fighting a scout or sniper

Scouts and Snipers actually clicked on me, so I feel less frustrated knowing that they've had good aim and killed me with it :)

for me its not even frustration that they did have less skill. wats frustrating about dying to a pyro and not a scout is that u can control whether or not u die to that scout whereas when ur fighting a pyro, if ur in a certain range you just die. dying to a sniper is kinda just as frustrating but its not stupid or other powered just annoying and i wouldnt rly suggest anyway to fix it and most real people wouldn't either

Fair point, but that's not how I think. Disagreeing is fine. For example, when I witness airshots, I see kills against the 'flow of the game' (= things that do not happen predictably) before seeing how awesome the shot was. A case of half empty glass I guess.

I don't see how that makes the fights more or less frustrating. That's just how classes are.

Countless times in pugs and lobbies people who complain about that are the first ones to shoot rockets and pipes directly to the pyro's face... Now I agree with you that certain cases of reflecting are total bs, like when pyro reflects from behind you.

well you face a scout and you have a countdown timer on your head, more or less long depending on scout's aim. You must kill scout or get out before that end or you die. Pyro does the same thing really. About that 'force me into a corner 'thing I don't see how it's different from a rocket up your knees, depriving you of your momentum.

Yes that indeed can be annoying.

For scout i disagree, cf. higher up on the post. For snipers thats what I like to think too. When I was maincalling and see a pushable situation and an enemy sniper I'd be like 'go in he can't headshot us all', and well, sometimes the sniper gets a 4K, sometimes he does not get anything at all.
What does it say about the play we were trying to make? How, with such an unreliable outcome, should I behave when I see that class?
The safe option is not to attempt the play at all, and then the game turns into turtley slow as fuck games and stalemates I hate. Not cool, and frustrating for everyone playing.

ok the blinding point is actually painful I agree on that D:

I'm not saying ban scout and sniper. All I'm saying is that every class has its bit of frustration in playing against it, and everyone must deal with it, as it's a part of the game, and if you chop parts of the game (and 6s is already a very chopped TF2 experience), then you're not playing TF2 anymore.

how can u say health pools don't matter when it can be the difference between two-shotting or three-shotting a class that can kill you in a second and a half with zero aim required by the player

the highest time to kill on any 6's class as a pyro is 2 seconds, on a fully buffed soldier, and that doesn't include reflect damage
(this is important because unlike other classes doing max damage as pyro is easy as fuck so there's no way ur not going to be able to deal this level of damage 90% of the time)

also with scout and sniper you have to do this thing called aiming which you don't have to do on le balanced fire man

Why does it sound as if you're trying to defend the class ? Like I don't get how people can't seem to get the fact that doing more damage than a heavy by holding w and clicking m1 whilst flailing your mouse isn't very nice or skillful at all. Who cares that a sniper stopped your push? Then play around it, the game's so dynamic.Simply unfathomable.

Firstly and foremost I love TF2, I like Valve and I really appreciate the TF2 team you guys really seem like a great bunch of person who really like the game and mean the best. But pyro is in current state is a bit ridiculous.

Because when I get a kill as Pyro or get killed by a Pyro, I don't feel like the kill was earned. Every class is rewarded for having good aim, game sense and movement. You can die to a Scout faster than you can to a pyro, yes, but the Scout requires consistently good aim to achieve that. Pyro gives little benefit for near-perfect tracking outside of a damage boost to cranking your sens up 4x and just flailing your mouse at the enemy. Alongside that, Pyro's most controversial secondaries (in my opinion), the Detonator and Scorch Shot, allow Pyro to directly negate his biggest weakness by giving them the ability to set multiple people on fire from any range whilst also being very forgiving.

Pyro was designed to be the class for players who weren't good at FPS to be able to have a significant impact back when the Game was primarily focused on being casual. Now that the development team's focus has shifted to bridging the Competitive/Casual gap, and the fact that the overall player base has become more accustomed to the FPS genre, Pyro needs to change to allow players that have better mechanics and game sense to be significantly rewarded and players who don't need to gain any benefits, much like the other classes are.

i found banny in a meme on instagram
https://www.instagram.com/p/BgtkeIflgEo/

They should make fire just do 4 damage per tick no matter what. That is the current amount for afterburn and it seems to work.

https://i.imgur.com/9wRavPI.png

It is making me laughing so much :

Twiggy is pointing out how pyro creates a predictable gameplay regarding strategy, you expect the perfect move from the pyro and then creates your strategy to counter it : How a class that is predictable can be frustrating to you ? I do have an answer, you have a lack of gamesense, which is part of a player's skill. And you people do want to see TF2 has an esport ? In esport, the only valid frustration you can get is by losing, sometimes, it happens.. But being frustrated at someone using a mechanic of the game that you don't expect, which can be easily 80% of all the mechanics you can use, but you're not because you're expecting 6's as a Holy Meta, being the "best Meta in the world for it's high level gameplay". Do you need to install a brain on, or just banning things that are not part of your holy meta. Do i need to help you to know how easily pyro can get countered :
1- Learn about the available unlocks and read their stats
You all see unlocks as either gimmick or useless playing against a regular 6's comp, but these items has been created for 9 classes game, not a community created mod/ meta. Most items are well designed to a specific situation, playing against a pyro is a specific situation, deal with it and don't blame the player, change the game.
2- Use your brain, if you know a pyro is alive and you don't see him, check the corners, don't rush into brainlessly, and don't expect a class to punish you without requiring any aim, if you're not even using your brain to avoid those situations

TF2's comp player data base is way too centered around the notion of microgame : improve your own skill level and getting good at your class, The fact is that there's also macrogame :) Don't play the same way if the matchup is not the same. A game like TF2 requires both, If you expect to be good, don't be a mechanical god monkey and don't be a strategy god nerd, be both.

cu@Copenhagen

agree with olgha u guys just suck lmaooooooo

winston is esports...
pyro is esports

cut the damage by 90%