@olgha he's not an ambush class any more, he's literally a walk into you and you die unless you're a scout and you're far enough from him. but even then it's very annoying because of the fire particles. yes you CAN play around a pyro and counter him reasonably effectively at high level but it's very aids to do so, and slows the game down since you have to play a bit further away from chokes

unlocks such as the detonator and scorch shot dont have any real counterplay except playing faster rather than taking the slow fight, but there's times that isn't as viable

i'm a pubber and pyro (after inferno update) literally ruined the game for me so i hardly ever play now
new flames that don't require aiming and damage based on time duration when at least one particle stays on you instead of total number of particles that hit are absolutely horrible and legitimately require no skill
i was ok with degreaser + flares & axtinguisher back in the day, then came the fucking phlog, and now this shit, what's even the point when like 40% of server are pyros and you just get w+m1'd in an instant
it's just so incredibly frustrating that all the fun is gone

olgha is clearly two steps ahead of everyone else

because i'm defending it from being class limited to 0. I agree that it has issues and needs a rework but I do not find them game breaking or worthy of class limit 0.

Because in this case it is not the difference between 1 more or 1 less shot. between 100HP and 200HP you need two almost perfect rockets/meatshots to kill. Fiddling with health between these values just gives more margin for error to the player. Now you can either complain, or hit better shots, or not take the 1v1 if you can avoid it (obviously).
It's true that theres a bit of irony between hitting perfect shots to do X damage, and not aiming at all to do X damage :)

Whats the most interesting about these unlocks is that they destroy stickies tho. I see it as a cool way to counter traps, which slow the game down. If opponent team plays far away from chokes, pyro becomes interesting because he makes so much room : he destroys traps and reflects spam (easy to do when opponent is far away), and boom team can engage the fight for (almost) free. If there's a sniper, light him up, and problem is almost solved. How cool is that? More fights!

How can a Pyro get in flame range without ambushing you?

You can literally push/pressure off the fact that one of their players is on a useless class. Most of the time, Soldier slows down the game more than Pyro because it is actually capable of holding a choke without committing.

As for Uberstalling specifically, Pyro is obviously better, but airblast is actually significantly worse than it once was and flames still don’t work on Ubered people and we were fine with it before Jungle Inferno. Counterplay to wiping on mid without killing med is good for the game, and Pyro is still easily beatable with full ad.

Pressuring a team with Detonator Pyro is almost always a good play unless you’re already losing a fight for some other reason, in which case, Pyro is worse than standard classes because their shit range/speed means they can’t capitalize on advantages as quickly without reflect rocket jumping. They are almost completely defenseless against weapon heckling and only have 8-10 airblasts before becoming walking paperweights.

How anyone is dumb enough to argue against pyro being broken and extremely unfun to play against, is beyond me

all of that is true, none of that means it is OP or needs a nerf. it is still a bad class with worse design. what it needs is a proper rework the current tf2 team seems incapable of delivering. maybe to you that warrants a ban, but it seems to me that outright banning the worst class in 6s tf2 would do more harm for the gamemode and community than simply learning to play against it.

All the new players who enter the community due to pyro being viable in open now seem to outnumber the people quitting this shitfest I guess?
I just wanna have a good and fun game. That's why I'm playing after all

Your comment is making me laughing so much. Since you're going on about unlocks here watch this.

You see, you say this as if pyro is balanced and okay in its current situation. Let's take a quick glance at heavy, he isnt a very mobile class and is used on last to defend points at times. He also has great dps if you somehow get him in the right situation. Now, lets focus on a key factor here, his mobility. Heavy is the slowest class in the game and worst when he is spun up so that way he can't just whip out the GRU and then proceed to mow people down (plus his primary weapon has damage fall off). Now lets compare pyro in his current state, he can do the roughly the same if not more damage than the heavy whilst going at twice the speed with no damage fall off whatsoever.

Frankly I stopped reading after you said "use your brain" because am certain pyros aren't using theirs. But anyway I get what you're saying on checking corners but the thing is that I think you're missing the point that even if I didn't check the corner I shouldn't have to be pushed into a corner like am on a damn ice rink then flame'd to death within the span of 15 seconds. Like if I get ambushed by a scout for example I have a chance of a comeback and I know it.

Now shoo and go back on reddit.

0:03 Sniper isn't on danger shield even though Pyro is telegraphed (we know they know he's on Pyro because his Phlog is at 80%)

0:34 BLU Medic drops Pyro for no reason. The RED Medic was 100% dead if the BLU Medic stayed with his Pyro, because the Phlog can't airblast and he failed to bodyblock.

0:45 Heavy walks into flame range near a corner for no reason. Also Tomislav is suboptimal for fighting a Pyro on Gullywash last, and I'm 90% sure he switched to Heavy to fight the Pyro.

1:09 Scout takes over 100 damage from a Phlog Pyro top right and presumably calls Pyro position, and yet BLU Medic doesn't use Uber around the corner while walking into flamethrower range, for no reason

1:46 Demo blows all his ammo and abandons the choke. Soldier also abandons the choke. If either of them were lookint at the choke they could have easily juggled the Pyro to death. Also, the Demo somehow forgot the Pyro was top left and walked into flamethrower range. (the Uber trade got nothing).

I don't understand why you are linking this video when it is literally proving Olgha's point. 6s players do not understand offclassing or unlocks, and instead of learning, they bitch.

Heavy has significantly better range and is stronger vs hitscan and other Pyros. Running a Heavy vs Pyro on last is literally just up to map geometry - how hard the Pyro gets fucked by his shitty range. Or you run a passive Pyro to reflect spam, but you could always do that, and it's worse of a tactic now because of Degreaser nerf.

Also, the Flamethrower does have falloff.

Spy and Demo have the same instant punishes for being an idiot. Tomislav Heavy as well. They aren't banned because despite how sad you may feel, you can avoid the scenario easily by playing properly, it is counterable. So stop complaining and check the corner.

u srsly think the pyro should be able to kill those ppl so fast? its faster than a 2 shot. why did u ignore the last clip of thalash dying in a nanosecond? or how fast he shreds all those ppl in the first clip?

its actually mad how u see these clips and genuinely think 'yup. im gonna write a 100 paragraphs on why this is ok'

pubbing has divulged into 4 pyros jet packing to the enemy spawn, getting denied, insta dying and then doing the same shit the next round until no one sees them and then they insta kill everyone at the spawn just like this and it happens so quick theres sometimes u cant even react fast enough to go to the cabinet even tho its right there. pubbers are facking pissed.

I didn't say I thought it was okay, I said it's easily counterable if you use your brain, and shouldn't be banned.

Is everyone who complains about Pyro talking about pubs? Yes, the Flamethrower is overpowered for players at the skill floor. So are Medic and Engineer. The skill floor is irrelevant for competitive play.

pubbing used to be kinda fun before the pyro update now it's just fuck around until you face a pyro and get killed instantly

What? My guy are you trolling me right now ? Because this can't possibly be real right now.

So you are looking me dead in the eye right now and saying that this is completely okay? And that we should just "get good" or "watch corners".

I don't care about the fact that he's offclassing or the fact that I should or shouldn't understand its the simple fact that all he did just simply, walked, held m1 and won. He even got invulnerability at some point just by simply clicking m2. Do you not realize how crazy that is? Some classes have to wait for that invincibility/crits you know, but nope pyro gets crits as well as invulnerability and to make matter worst he wasn't even using his primary it was his secondary. Plus in other situation he gets to travel at mock 10 because of the powerjack.

And just look at what @funhaver1998 said about thalash getting d_destroyed in less than a a couple of seconds.

You and olga need some help tbr its ridiculous to think both of you are trying to justify this class in its current state. I know people are entitled to their own opinion but just wow.

Man with all these complaints am surprised that the TF2 team hasn't just pulled a Lightning Gun model from the community workshop, gamebanana or something and slapped on some reasonable stats to it. No crit gimmicks no nothing. Just an plain 'ole LG with a steady beam that doesn't mess your vision too much. Barely wide enough so you can see that it's hitting you and bright enough so you can see while getting hit and not whatever this is

Edit: I'd love something like this from quake

Obviously. Do I need to type slower or something? Did you read any part of the post before responding?

You realize that Medic is literally the same thing, except 2x better and 10x harder to counter, right?

You do realize you have to charge the Phlog, right? Has anyone fucking glanced at any of the unlock descriptions?

Being stuck doing nothing for 2 seconds is a downside, not an upside, invulnerability or not. You can't leverage the invulnerability to do anything. You can block a choke, but you'll waste your phlog and you can do that with airblast much better. You can stall a point, but they can just juggle you into the air and cap before you hit the ground.

And I have no idea what you're talking about with the secondary thing, the only crits I saw in that video were Phlog crits unless you're talking about 23 damage Detonator minicrits.

It's barely faster than Medic, over 20% slower than Scout, and only worth doing out of fights because of damage vulnerability, and because you can't shoot and sprint at the same time. Trying to argue that the Powerjack makes Pyro too mobile is utterly ridiculous.

I addressed this in my post. I also didn't mention that Scout is faster than Pyro and he tried to leave through the right stairs instead of dropping off the balcony to lower lobby, but in fairness to Thalash, he probably expected his spam classes to juggle the Pyro that can't airblast.

Who are you?

medics not op in pubs lol that shit is dependant on the people who the medics are healing and they have to be a cut above a pubber in order to make it effective.

it really has gotten to the point where if the guy isnt someone skilled enough to play competitive, the person with the top score and highest impact on the game is 100% of the time a pyro because they are having the same impact on shitty pubbers as actual players and everyone of those 24 ppl are capable of the same shit, but playing it now is seen as a tryhard option or some shit. if someone gets pissed off that they're dying a lot, they go pyro because its seen as stupidly op. there shouldn't ever be a class that consistently top scores in a pub.

i haven't played a pub where multiple ppl haven't complained about it like this monthish. so if the updates not working for pubbers and by the overwhelming backlash on the forums, who is it working for? u and olgha i guess but no one else likes this shit at all.

how could thalash of countered being melted in 0.1 secs there? just not being there at all i guess cause it took like 0.1 seconds to kill him so even if he was at bitch boy range he still would of died

ur point about the first clip is debatable too there are other members of the team is most likely why the medic flashed and even if the pyro did end up killing gink's medic its not like its impossible gink could of done the same shit he killed like 3 people, that demo was on da facking beam and got to shoot like 2 pipes and then died even though he was looking at him the whole time and all gink had to do was wiggle his mouse and walk at him but yet hes killing faster than a scout 2 shotting at point blank range

i tried to warn you

lol dumbasses just see the pyro through the wall and dont walk into him

Well Bastion is also op in bronze tier, so what ? Well people learn to play against and see that it has his weakness.
When someone has krits from a medic, do you run into it ?
When Thalash stays for killing the pyro, he expect to kill him frame perfect otherwise, if he stays in the particle, he dies. If he lets the soldier from his team kills the pyro, he lives. You get gready, you earn the prize. It is only a matter of gamesense, no matter "easy" would be the pyro, Thalash got outplayed, as many players are getting outplayed by a pyro because they don't respect this class because they don't know its real value. This community, as it feels to me, is filled with (excuse me for the allegory) hanzo, widow, Yasuo and Riven mains but when we look closer, you're even getting outplay at your own class by people not playing your class.

@June I hope to see you one day :D I may be attempting to go next rewind with couple of friends

I played a bit after the pyro update for ~20 minutes.
Haven't touched tf2 since.

what are the weaknesses to pyro exactly

Jon_

Did you just try to compare medic and pyro? I guess if this is the mentality of some tf2 players I can see no wonder why the pyro is the way it is right now. Oh well.

People like you are probably the reason why we haven't gotten an update yet, the TF2 team probably are patting themselves on the back right now. Saying "Hey vJill did you know the players are just loving the new pyro! Just take a look at this post from 4812622!"

And you know what. You're right, from now on am gonna check corners like crazy and learn to play around a class that can out dps a heavy. Thanks 4812622.

Medic isn't overpowered? Please don't tell me you honestly believe that.

Ceteris paribus the team with 50% more HP WILL win. The lowest common denominator of Soldier, Pyro, or Heavy, while pocketed, can kill an entire team streaming in ones and twos.

Now you're talking about score in pubs? You realize every extinguish is worth one point, right?

Also, I'd just like to reiterate that I do not give a single flying fuck about the easiest way to get on the scoreboard in casual mode.

Who the fuck cares about the opinions of pubbers, and for that matter, who the fuck cares about the opinions of the lowest common denominator of competitive player? Balancing for pubbers gave us the sticky nerf, horribly broken Scout/Sniper secondaries, and Medics moving at Scout speed. No league should poll SPUD or r/tf2 to figure out their whitelist, because they're not qualified, because they have no experience, and therefore, have no fucking clue what they're talking about.

Scout walks at 133% speed.

Pyro walks at 100% speed.

It doesn't matter. Dropping the Heavy doesn't matter if you get a Medic and Pyro for it. The Heavy can also just take an arrow as the Medic is walking forward with the Pyro. If the rest of the team loses a 4v4 while holding last with a Heavy and 3 spam classes while the attacking team's Uber does nothing, then that's on them fucking up and iatgink could have won running stock flamethrower, and probably by friendly disguising as Pyro.

It's much harder without 260. A 175 Pyro without airblast can comfortably be spammed from high ground. A 260 Pyro getting tanked without airblast is threatening enough to force people to drop to point, potentially, and then you've negated their height advantage and their range advantage. Also, the Phlog spree only happened because the Heavy donated full charge to the Pyro.

The only way Phlog works is if someone fucks up and walks into the Phlog. Whatever what-if scenarios we're conjuring up that will never change.

Yes, the Phlog is very good at killing people who walk into it when it has crits. You're supposed to stay out of flamethrower range.

come to rgb in october :3

quit trying to argue that the class that is literally broken because particles from all its primary weapons double hit and do way more damage than intended isnt actually broken

The argument is that Pyro's skill to reward ratio is too high. Medic has a higher skill to reward ratio. I don't understand your issue. You keep making statements of incredulity instead of actually responding to arguments.

I'm pretty sure I said I didn't like Jungle Inferno flamethrower in every post I made.

I don't understand. You haven't even tried to learn to play around it? The update has been out for months, and you're still just mindlessly zombie-ing around playing exactly the same way? And you're fucking proud of your ignorance, and demand the devs balance the game around it?

I'm honestly curious. Are you satirizing the type of person who posts in this thread?

(also seriously who the fuck are you)

Yes, the flamethrower is broken. It is not overpowered and should not be banned.

i've never seen anyone more in denial about anything, this is actually shocking

viper is right, the class is fundamentally bugged. You can see in the gink video of him playing on gully, it flashes up with a "criticals 20-39 damage per particle". Well, since particles can hit more than once, this is not true at all. If this was the case, it would be more forgiving in terms of damage, and people would feel like they can outplay it.

This is main reason why pyro should be banned imo. From a competitive point of view it hinders player improvement/skill comparison, which is never good for a competitive game. It does this by forcing players to relearn how to play the game with the bug, and then forcing them to relearn how to play the game without it after the bug gets patched. This is why competitive games like league of legends disable characters with bugs until they are fixed (dependent on how gamebreaking it is).

There is nothing wrong with forcing players to adapt to new change, but if you force players to have to adapt too often, or too much in one leap, it massively hinders how you can compare skill from one player to another. Which is largely the point for competitive games, people want to compete against others and compare their skill levels.

Whether or not you agree that the leap was too big or not is ones own opinion, however there should be no disagreeing that pyro should be fixed in terms of the bugs it has, and the unclear visuals protruding from the flamethrower. Valve tends not to release updates too often for this game, so I don't have faith the bugs will be fixed anytime soon. That means it is on us as a community to fix the problem. The simplest, most viable solution right now is class limit 0.

Whilst pyro has it's place in the game and there is a lot of cool stuff you can do with it, the forced use of unlocks and raw dps of the class make it not only unenjoyable, but much worse for the strategy of the game. There are only two counters to pyro right now. One is a sniper with darwins danger shield, the other is a better pyro. I remember when wee booties got nerfed because if one demoman ran them, the other had to as well. Very similar scenario here since you can't always oneshot a 260 health machine running at you surrounded by a cloak of flames.

Hold up lemme make my name bold encase you didn't see it Jon_

Yikes.

What June has been saying is actually pretty much completely true. I have seen first hand that people don't even attempt to adjust how they play against pyros (or don't know how to) and instead prefer to complain about it. Pyro is annoying, unfun to play against, has a completely broken skill to reward ratio, and is one of the most conceptually broken concepts executed in the game. Pyro isn't overpowered, doesn't centralize the game, and doesn't show any signs of being absurdly powerful except at low levels. Saying that the only counter to a pyro is another pyro or that there is no counter is fucking retarded. Literally equip a shotgun on soldiers and treat corners cautiously and you are 90% of the way there without even venturing remotely into the land of gimmicks.

The most basic change that could be made to it right now is making it possible to see through flames holy shit that is fucking aids. Past that, people have always said to make the class reward aim and movement. Jungle inferno buffed pyro, but somehow managed to make it reward aim and movement EVEN LESS than before, which is rather depressing. In terms of getting valve to change pyro to have an actual skill-reward system, its most important to make sure that the community at large knows why making pyro reward good mechanics is important so that valve actually has the consensus and pressure to make changes rather than seeing the topic as a landmine they don't want to approach again.

https://i.imgur.com/8vJ8lUr.jpg

I think this is my favorite quote from now on