4812622Yes, the flamethrower is broken.
4812622It is not overpowered and should not be banned.
nerf pyro
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
[quote=4812622]Yes, the flamethrower is broken.[/quote]
[quote=4812622]It is not overpowered and should not be banned.[/quote]
[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/uHox9Jm5TyTPa/200.gif[/img]
[quote=4812622]It is not overpowered and should not be banned.[/quote]
[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/uHox9Jm5TyTPa/200.gif[/img]
Jon_Hold up lemme make my name bold encase you didn't see it Jon_
https://i.imgur.com/rFnmyH7.png
Doughyviper is right, the class is fundamentally bugged. You can see in the gink video of him playing on gully, it flashes up with a "criticals 20-39 damage per particle". Well, since particles can hit more than once, this is not true at all. If this was the case, it would be more forgiving in terms of damage, and people would feel like they can outplay it.
I never said the Flamethrower isn't broken, I said there are copious methods of counterplay. I don't understand how that is a controversial statement.
This is main reason why pyro should be banned imo. From a competitive point of view it hinders player improvement/skill comparison, which is never good for a competitive game. It does this by forcing players to relearn how to play the game with the bug, and then forcing them to relearn how to play the game without it after the bug gets patched. This is why competitive games like league of legends disable characters with bugs until they are fixed (dependent on how gamebreaking it is).
There is nothing wrong with forcing players to adapt to new change, but if you force players to have to adapt too often, or too much in one leap, it massively hinders how you can compare skill from one player to another. Which is largely the point for competitive games, people want to compete against others and compare their skill levels.
This is untrue for multiple reasons. First, it's most likely working as intended. Second, the counter to Pyro has always been walking backwards, checking corners, Scout, Shotgun Soldier, other Pyros, Demoman, Heavy, Engineer, Sniper, for as long as airblast has existed.
Whether or not you agree that the leap was too big or not is ones own opinion, however there should be no disagreeing that pyro should be fixed in terms of the bugs it has, and the unclear visuals protruding from the flamethrower.
I agree.
Valve tends not to release updates too often for this game, so I don't have faith the bugs will be fixed anytime soon. That means it is on us as a community to fix the problem. The simplest, most viable solution right now is class limit 0.
What makes you think the new Flamethrower is a bug? When stickies were glitched to have no falloff it was patched in a day. This is at least that bad and it's been months.
Whilst pyro has it's place in the game and there is a lot of cool stuff you can do with it, the forced use of unlocks and raw dps of the class make it not only unenjoyable, but much worse for the strategy of the game
Forced use of unlocks? Full stock is 100% viable to hold last, which is, apart from Gullywash, the only viable time to play Pyro. Furthermore, the only stock loadouts that aren't outclassed to some extent are Demo, Sniper, and Spy. Claiming that Pyro should be banned because you have to use unlocks doesn't make any sense.
here are only two counters to pyro right now. One is a sniper with darwins danger shield, the other is a better pyro.
Please don't tell me you actually believe this.
If you actually do believe this, I have a question for you.
Where are the undefeated high Invite Pyros?
I remember when wee booties got nerfed because if one demoman ran them, the other had to as well.
This is utterly irrelevant on multiple levels.
First, I agree the Flamethrower should be changed.
Second, Booties were never banned, so making this comparison proves my point.
Third, by this logic, Gunboats, Escape Plan, and Crossbow should be banned because they are mandatory to get to mid.
Very similar scenario here since you can't always oneshot a 260 health machine running at you surrounded by a cloak of flames.
You don't need to oneshot a Pyro because you can completely negate it by pressing S.
[quote=Jon_]Hold up lemme make my name bold encase you didn't see it [b]Jon_[/b][/quote]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/rFnmyH7.png[/img][quote=Doughy]viper is right, the class is fundamentally bugged. You can see in the gink video of him playing on gully, it flashes up with a "criticals 20-39 damage per particle". Well, since particles can hit more than once, this is not true at all. If this was the case, it would be more forgiving in terms of damage, and people would feel like they can outplay it.[/quote]
I never said the Flamethrower isn't broken, I said there are copious methods of counterplay. I don't understand how that is a controversial statement.
[quote]This is main reason why pyro should be banned imo. From a competitive point of view it hinders player improvement/skill comparison, which is never good for a competitive game. It does this by forcing players to relearn how to play the game with the bug, and then forcing them to relearn how to play the game without it after the bug gets patched. This is why competitive games like league of legends disable characters with bugs until they are fixed (dependent on how gamebreaking it is).
There is nothing wrong with forcing players to adapt to new change, but if you force players to have to adapt too often, or too much in one leap, it massively hinders how you can compare skill from one player to another. Which is largely the point for competitive games, people want to compete against others and compare their skill levels.[/quote]
This is untrue for multiple reasons. First, it's most likely working as intended. Second, the counter to Pyro has always been walking backwards, checking corners, Scout, Shotgun Soldier, other Pyros, Demoman, Heavy, Engineer, Sniper, for as long as airblast has existed.
[quote]Whether or not you agree that the leap was too big or not is ones own opinion, however there should be no disagreeing that pyro should be fixed in terms of the bugs it has, and the unclear visuals protruding from the flamethrower.[/quote]
I agree.
[quote]Valve tends not to release updates too often for this game, so I don't have faith the bugs will be fixed anytime soon. That means it is on us as a community to fix the problem. The simplest, most viable solution right now is class limit 0. [/quote]
What makes you think the new Flamethrower is a bug? When stickies were glitched to have no falloff it was patched in a day. This is at least that bad and it's been months.
[quote]Whilst pyro has it's place in the game and there is a lot of cool stuff you can do with it, the forced use of unlocks and raw dps of the class make it not only unenjoyable, but much worse for the strategy of the game[/quote]
Forced use of unlocks? Full stock is 100% viable to hold last, which is, apart from Gullywash, the only viable time to play Pyro. Furthermore, the only stock loadouts that aren't outclassed to some extent are Demo, Sniper, and Spy. Claiming that Pyro should be banned because you have to use unlocks doesn't make any sense.
[quote]here are only two counters to pyro right now. One is a sniper with darwins danger shield, the other is a better pyro.[/quote]
Please don't tell me you actually believe this.
If you actually do believe this, I have a question for you.
Where are the undefeated high Invite Pyros?
[quote]I remember when wee booties got nerfed because if one demoman ran them, the other had to as well.[/quote]
This is utterly irrelevant on multiple levels.
First, I agree the Flamethrower should be changed.
Second, Booties were never banned, so making this comparison proves my point.
Third, by this logic, Gunboats, Escape Plan, and Crossbow should be banned because they are mandatory to get to mid.
[quote]Very similar scenario here since you can't always oneshot a 260 health machine running at you surrounded by a cloak of flames.[/quote]
You don't need to oneshot a Pyro because you can completely negate it by pressing S.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/rFnmyH7.png[/img][quote=Doughy]viper is right, the class is fundamentally bugged. You can see in the gink video of him playing on gully, it flashes up with a "criticals 20-39 damage per particle". Well, since particles can hit more than once, this is not true at all. If this was the case, it would be more forgiving in terms of damage, and people would feel like they can outplay it.[/quote]
I never said the Flamethrower isn't broken, I said there are copious methods of counterplay. I don't understand how that is a controversial statement.
[quote]This is main reason why pyro should be banned imo. From a competitive point of view it hinders player improvement/skill comparison, which is never good for a competitive game. It does this by forcing players to relearn how to play the game with the bug, and then forcing them to relearn how to play the game without it after the bug gets patched. This is why competitive games like league of legends disable characters with bugs until they are fixed (dependent on how gamebreaking it is).
There is nothing wrong with forcing players to adapt to new change, but if you force players to have to adapt too often, or too much in one leap, it massively hinders how you can compare skill from one player to another. Which is largely the point for competitive games, people want to compete against others and compare their skill levels.[/quote]
This is untrue for multiple reasons. First, it's most likely working as intended. Second, the counter to Pyro has always been walking backwards, checking corners, Scout, Shotgun Soldier, other Pyros, Demoman, Heavy, Engineer, Sniper, for as long as airblast has existed.
[quote]Whether or not you agree that the leap was too big or not is ones own opinion, however there should be no disagreeing that pyro should be fixed in terms of the bugs it has, and the unclear visuals protruding from the flamethrower.[/quote]
I agree.
[quote]Valve tends not to release updates too often for this game, so I don't have faith the bugs will be fixed anytime soon. That means it is on us as a community to fix the problem. The simplest, most viable solution right now is class limit 0. [/quote]
What makes you think the new Flamethrower is a bug? When stickies were glitched to have no falloff it was patched in a day. This is at least that bad and it's been months.
[quote]Whilst pyro has it's place in the game and there is a lot of cool stuff you can do with it, the forced use of unlocks and raw dps of the class make it not only unenjoyable, but much worse for the strategy of the game[/quote]
Forced use of unlocks? Full stock is 100% viable to hold last, which is, apart from Gullywash, the only viable time to play Pyro. Furthermore, the only stock loadouts that aren't outclassed to some extent are Demo, Sniper, and Spy. Claiming that Pyro should be banned because you have to use unlocks doesn't make any sense.
[quote]here are only two counters to pyro right now. One is a sniper with darwins danger shield, the other is a better pyro.[/quote]
Please don't tell me you actually believe this.
If you actually do believe this, I have a question for you.
Where are the undefeated high Invite Pyros?
[quote]I remember when wee booties got nerfed because if one demoman ran them, the other had to as well.[/quote]
This is utterly irrelevant on multiple levels.
First, I agree the Flamethrower should be changed.
Second, Booties were never banned, so making this comparison proves my point.
Third, by this logic, Gunboats, Escape Plan, and Crossbow should be banned because they are mandatory to get to mid.
[quote]Very similar scenario here since you can't always oneshot a 260 health machine running at you surrounded by a cloak of flames.[/quote]
You don't need to oneshot a Pyro because you can completely negate it by pressing S.
just because jon_ only has ugc steel history doesnt make his argument that pyro is broken and dumb not a valid one
plenty of high level players have bitched about pyro, are their opinions not valid to you because theyre not invite players?
just because jon_ only has ugc steel history doesnt make his argument that pyro is broken and dumb not a valid one
plenty of high level players have bitched about pyro, are their opinions not valid to you because theyre not invite players?
plenty of high level players have bitched about pyro, are their opinions not valid to you because theyre not invite players?
There is a difference between an argument and an opinion. Despite the fact that Jon_ played one season of UGC Steel, their argument matters. Their opinion does not.
When Jon_ says "Yikes" and refuses to respond to 90% of my argument, he is not arguing, he is stating his opinion - "I disagree." Which, again, doesn't matter.
There is a difference between an argument and an opinion. Despite the fact that Jon_ played one season of UGC Steel, their argument matters. Their opinion does not.
When Jon_ says "Yikes" and refuses to respond to 90% of my argument, he is not arguing, he is stating his opinion - "I disagree." Which, again, doesn't matter.
When Jon_ says "Yikes" and refuses to respond to 90% of my argument, he is not arguing, he is stating his opinion - "I disagree." Which, again, doesn't matter.
ur still going eh ?
edit: lets get this str8 because ur not understanding.
its not fun.
thats not objective but its a shared opinion of 90% of the community at this point.
even pubbers fucking hate it.
it just isn't fun to play and to play against anymore.
do you know what we do with unfun things?
we ban them, that's why we have a whitelist, that's why we have class limits, that's why we have a map pool, because the best way to play the game isn't the fun way to play the game.
fun is perceived, it's an opinion.
present your excuses to Jon underscore.
ur still going eh ?
edit: lets get this str8 because ur not understanding.
its not fun.
thats not objective but its a shared opinion of 90% of the community at this point.
even pubbers fucking hate it.
it just isn't fun to play and to play against anymore.
do you know what we do with unfun things?
we ban them, that's why we have a whitelist, that's why we have class limits, that's why we have a map pool, because the best way to play the game isn't the fun way to play the game.
fun is perceived, it's an opinion.
present your excuses to Jon underscore.
edit: lets get this str8 because ur not understanding.
its not fun.
thats not objective but its a shared opinion of 90% of the community at this point.
even pubbers fucking hate it.
it just isn't fun to play and to play against anymore.
do you know what we do with unfun things?
we ban them, that's why we have a whitelist, that's why we have class limits, that's why we have a map pool, because the best way to play the game isn't the fun way to play the game.
fun is perceived, it's an opinion.
present your excuses to Jon underscore.
4812622...the counter to Pyro has always been walking backwards, checking corners, Scout, Shotgun Soldier, other Pyros, Demoman, Heavy, Engineer, Sniper, for as long as airblast has existed.
In what world lol
[quote=4812622]...the counter to Pyro has always been walking backwards, checking corners, Scout, Shotgun Soldier, other Pyros, [b]Demoman,[/b] Heavy, Engineer, Sniper, for as long as airblast has existed.[/quote]
In what world lol
In what world lol
TwiiKuulets get this str8 because ur not understanding.
its not fun.
thats not objective but its a shared opinion of 90% of the community at this point.
even pubbers fucking hate it.
it just isn't fun to play and to play against anymore.
do you know what we do with unfun things?
we ban them, that's why we have a whitelist, that's why we have class limits, that's why we have a map pool, because the best way to play the game isn't the fun way to play the game.
Yeah, I definitely remember our community's ancient, sacred tradition of polling Steel players and consulting r/tf2 on whether we should ban stuff.
[quote=TwiiKuu]lets get this str8 because ur not understanding.
its not fun.
thats not objective but its a shared opinion of 90% of the community at this point.
even pubbers fucking hate it.
it just isn't fun to play and to play against anymore.
do you know what we do with unfun things?
we ban them, that's why we have a whitelist, that's why we have class limits, that's why we have a map pool, because the best way to play the game isn't the fun way to play the game.[/quote]
Yeah, I definitely remember our community's ancient, sacred tradition of polling Steel players and consulting r/tf2 on whether we should ban stuff.
its not fun.
thats not objective but its a shared opinion of 90% of the community at this point.
even pubbers fucking hate it.
it just isn't fun to play and to play against anymore.
do you know what we do with unfun things?
we ban them, that's why we have a whitelist, that's why we have class limits, that's why we have a map pool, because the best way to play the game isn't the fun way to play the game.[/quote]
Yeah, I definitely remember our community's ancient, sacred tradition of polling Steel players and consulting r/tf2 on whether we should ban stuff.
4812622TwiiKuulets get this str8 because ur not understanding.
its not fun.
thats not objective but its a shared opinion of 90% of the community at this point.
even pubbers fucking hate it.
it just isn't fun to play and to play against anymore.
do you know what we do with unfun things?
we ban them, that's why we have a whitelist, that's why we have class limits, that's why we have a map pool, because the best way to play the game isn't the fun way to play the game.
Yeah, I definitely remember our community's ancient, sacred tradition of polling Steel players and consulting r/tf2 on whether we should ban stuff.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/992/397/9c9.gif
[quote=4812622][quote=TwiiKuu]lets get this str8 because ur not understanding.
its not fun.
thats not objective but its a shared opinion of 90% of the community at this point.
even pubbers fucking hate it.
it just isn't fun to play and to play against anymore.
do you know what we do with unfun things?
we ban them, that's why we have a whitelist, that's why we have class limits, that's why we have a map pool, because the best way to play the game isn't the fun way to play the game.[/quote]
Yeah, I definitely remember our community's ancient, sacred tradition of polling Steel players and consulting r/tf2 on whether we should ban stuff.[/quote]
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/992/397/9c9.gif
its not fun.
thats not objective but its a shared opinion of 90% of the community at this point.
even pubbers fucking hate it.
it just isn't fun to play and to play against anymore.
do you know what we do with unfun things?
we ban them, that's why we have a whitelist, that's why we have class limits, that's why we have a map pool, because the best way to play the game isn't the fun way to play the game.[/quote]
Yeah, I definitely remember our community's ancient, sacred tradition of polling Steel players and consulting r/tf2 on whether we should ban stuff.[/quote]
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/992/397/9c9.gif
4812622You don't need to oneshot a Pyro because you can completely negate it by pressing S.
[quote=4812622]You don't need to oneshot a Pyro because you can completely negate it by pressing S.[/quote]
[youtube]https://youtu.be/zrWoG8IckyE[/youtube]
[youtube]https://youtu.be/zrWoG8IckyE[/youtube]
4812622.
ur not worth my time so heres a cool response i found on a website:
strawman
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
btw i predict ur gonna use the following so heres that
the fallacy fallacy
You presumed that because a claim has been poorly argued, or a fallacy has been made, that the claim itself must be wrong.
It is entirely possible to make a claim that is false yet argue with logical coherency for that claim, just as it is possible to make a claim that is true and justify it with various fallacies and poor arguments.
anyways lock this thread (and this account)
[quote=4812622].[/quote]
ur not worth my time so heres a cool response i found on a website:
strawman
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
btw i predict ur gonna use the following so heres that
the fallacy fallacy
You presumed that because a claim has been poorly argued, or a fallacy has been made, that the claim itself must be wrong.
It is entirely possible to make a claim that is false yet argue with logical coherency for that claim, just as it is possible to make a claim that is true and justify it with various fallacies and poor arguments.
anyways lock this thread (and this account)
ur not worth my time so heres a cool response i found on a website:
strawman
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
btw i predict ur gonna use the following so heres that
the fallacy fallacy
You presumed that because a claim has been poorly argued, or a fallacy has been made, that the claim itself must be wrong.
It is entirely possible to make a claim that is false yet argue with logical coherency for that claim, just as it is possible to make a claim that is true and justify it with various fallacies and poor arguments.
anyways lock this thread (and this account)
LMAO did you just look up "fallacy" on wikipedia and expect it to completely shut down the conversation?
What is my misrepresentation of your argument?
And I have no idea where you're going with the fallacy fallacy attack. I never once claimed that people were wrong because they made bad arguments. I claimed things (Pyro is not overpowered, Dragon's Fury is not overpowered, Detonator is not overpowered), backed them with reasoning (limited range and speed and bad matchups vs almost every class, inferior to and more difficult than stock, a scapegoat for actually pressing issues), and countered people's arguments against me, which involves pointing out fallacies.
Nowhere did I say that "because your committed a logical error, I am right." Rather, the logical error means that your criticism of my argument is invalid, and you have to either make a new argument, or cede the point.
I can list logical fallacies too. This is directed at everyone in the thread, not you in particular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone - dismissing a statement as absurd without giving proof of its absurdity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule - an informal fallacy which presents an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous, or humorous, and therefore not worth consideration
The examples of this are myriad. Jon_ saying "Yikes." viper / pov's gifs of confused people. Jon_ sarcastically admitting I'm right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization - an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence
This is showing that video of prem players getting rolled over by Phlog and using that as conclusive proof.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum - a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it
That's you.
LMAO did you just look up "fallacy" on wikipedia and expect it to completely shut down the conversation?
What is my misrepresentation of your argument?
And I have no idea where you're going with the fallacy fallacy attack. I never once claimed that people were wrong because they made bad arguments. I claimed things (Pyro is not overpowered, Dragon's Fury is not overpowered, Detonator is not overpowered), backed them with reasoning (limited range and speed and bad matchups vs almost every class, inferior to and more difficult than stock, a scapegoat for actually pressing issues), and countered people's arguments against me, which involves pointing out fallacies.
Nowhere did I say that "because your committed a logical error, I am right." Rather, the logical error means that your criticism of my argument is invalid, and you have to either make a new argument, or cede the point.
I can list logical fallacies too. This is directed at everyone in the thread, not you in particular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone - dismissing a statement as absurd without giving proof of its absurdity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule - an informal fallacy which presents an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous, or humorous, and therefore not worth consideration
The examples of this are myriad. Jon_ saying "Yikes." viper / pov's gifs of confused people. Jon_ sarcastically admitting I'm right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization - an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence
This is showing that video of prem players getting rolled over by Phlog and using that as conclusive proof.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum - a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it
That's you.
What is my misrepresentation of your argument?
And I have no idea where you're going with the fallacy fallacy attack. I never once claimed that people were wrong because they made bad arguments. I claimed things (Pyro is not overpowered, Dragon's Fury is not overpowered, Detonator is not overpowered), backed them with reasoning (limited range and speed and bad matchups vs almost every class, inferior to and more difficult than stock, a scapegoat for actually pressing issues), and countered people's arguments against me, which involves pointing out fallacies.
Nowhere did I say that "because your committed a logical error, I am right." Rather, the logical error means that your criticism of my argument is invalid, and you have to either make a new argument, or cede the point.
I can list logical fallacies too. This is directed at everyone in the thread, not you in particular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone - dismissing a statement as absurd without giving proof of its absurdity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule - an informal fallacy which presents an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous, or humorous, and therefore not worth consideration
The examples of this are myriad. Jon_ saying "Yikes." viper / pov's gifs of confused people. Jon_ sarcastically admitting I'm right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization - an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence
This is showing that video of prem players getting rolled over by Phlog and using that as conclusive proof.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum - a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it
That's you.
4812622LMAO did you just look up "fallacy" on wikipedia and expect it to completely shut down the conversation?
What is my misrepresentation of your argument?
And I have no idea where you're going with the fallacy fallacy attack. I never once claimed that people were wrong because they made bad arguments. I claimed things (Pyro is not overpowered, Dragon's Fury is not overpowered, Detonator is not overpowered), backed them with reasoning (limited range and speed and bad matchups vs almost every class, inferior to and more difficult than stock, a scapegoat for actually pressing issues), and countered people's arguments against me, which involves pointing out fallacies.
Nowhere did I say that "because your committed a logical error, I am right." Rather, the logical error means that your criticism of my argument is invalid, and you have to either make a new argument, or cede the point.
[quote=4812622]LMAO did you just look up "fallacy" on wikipedia and expect it to completely shut down the conversation?
What is my misrepresentation of your argument?
And I have no idea where you're going with the fallacy fallacy attack. I never once claimed that people were wrong because they made bad arguments. I claimed things (Pyro is not overpowered, Dragon's Fury is not overpowered, Detonator is not overpowered), backed them with reasoning (limited range and speed and bad matchups vs almost every class, inferior to and more difficult than stock, a scapegoat for actually pressing issues), and countered people's arguments against me, which involves pointing out fallacies.
Nowhere did I say that "because your committed a logical error, I am right." Rather, the logical error means that your criticism of my argument is invalid, and you have to either make a new argument, or cede the point.[/quote]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/D0xku2d.jpg[/img]
What is my misrepresentation of your argument?
And I have no idea where you're going with the fallacy fallacy attack. I never once claimed that people were wrong because they made bad arguments. I claimed things (Pyro is not overpowered, Dragon's Fury is not overpowered, Detonator is not overpowered), backed them with reasoning (limited range and speed and bad matchups vs almost every class, inferior to and more difficult than stock, a scapegoat for actually pressing issues), and countered people's arguments against me, which involves pointing out fallacies.
Nowhere did I say that "because your committed a logical error, I am right." Rather, the logical error means that your criticism of my argument is invalid, and you have to either make a new argument, or cede the point.[/quote]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/D0xku2d.jpg[/img]
*pyro phlogs and ubers onto last point from underneath*
*literally forced to run at it or they lose because when the uber ends its gonna start a 2x cap*
"wtf why didnt you hold s thats how new pyro is countered"
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
*pyro phlogs and ubers onto last point from underneath*
*literally forced to run at it or they lose because when the uber ends its gonna start a 2x cap*
"wtf why didnt you hold s thats how new pyro is countered"
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
*literally forced to run at it or they lose because when the uber ends its gonna start a 2x cap*
"wtf why didnt you hold s thats how new pyro is countered"
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Apt*pyro phlogs and ubers onto last point from underneath*
*literally forced to run at it or they lose because when the uber ends its gonna start a 2x cap*
"wtf why didnt you hold s thats how pyro is countered"
???
I already responded to this, but I'll do it again.
Let's think this through.
No, you do not press S when you have a better Uber, because Uber makes you immune to flames, and flames are why you are pressing S.
The mistake was the Medic dropping the chasing defending Pyro, which not only killed the defending Pyro, let the Medic and Phlog Pyro live when they should have died (the Degreaser Pyro can lock the Phlog Pyro into the corner so there was no chance of the Phlog Pyro escaping), but it gave up Phlog charge, which culminated into pressuring the defenders into dropping onto point and abandoning high ground and distance.
Was the Phlog counterable? Yes.
Did the defending team fuck up? Yes.
Did they deserve to lose because they fucked up? Yes.
People need to start blaming themselves for making stupid plays instead of finding some scapegoat to salvage their pride. I guarantee if anyone in this thread watched a demo of every time they died to a Pyro, they would immediately realize that either Soldier / Scout could have done the same thing better, or that they could easily avoided dying had someone (including themselves) not fucked up, or both.
[quote=Apt]*pyro phlogs and ubers onto last point from underneath*
*literally forced to run at it or they lose because when the uber ends its gonna start a 2x cap*
"wtf why didnt you hold s thats how pyro is countered"
???[/quote]
I already responded to this, but I'll do it again.
Let's think this through.
No, you do not press S when you have a better Uber, because Uber makes you immune to flames, and flames are why you are pressing S.
The mistake was the Medic dropping the chasing defending Pyro, which not only killed the defending Pyro, let the Medic and Phlog Pyro live when they should have died (the Degreaser Pyro can lock the Phlog Pyro into the corner so there was no chance of the Phlog Pyro escaping), but it gave up Phlog charge, which culminated into pressuring the defenders into dropping onto point and abandoning high ground and distance.
Was the Phlog counterable? Yes.
Did the defending team fuck up? Yes.
Did they deserve to lose because they fucked up? Yes.
People need to start blaming themselves for making stupid plays instead of finding some scapegoat to salvage their pride. I guarantee if anyone in this thread watched a demo of every time they died to a Pyro, they would immediately realize that either Soldier / Scout could have done the same thing better, or that they could easily avoided dying had someone (including themselves) not fucked up, or both.
*literally forced to run at it or they lose because when the uber ends its gonna start a 2x cap*
"wtf why didnt you hold s thats how pyro is countered"
???[/quote]
I already responded to this, but I'll do it again.
Let's think this through.
No, you do not press S when you have a better Uber, because Uber makes you immune to flames, and flames are why you are pressing S.
The mistake was the Medic dropping the chasing defending Pyro, which not only killed the defending Pyro, let the Medic and Phlog Pyro live when they should have died (the Degreaser Pyro can lock the Phlog Pyro into the corner so there was no chance of the Phlog Pyro escaping), but it gave up Phlog charge, which culminated into pressuring the defenders into dropping onto point and abandoning high ground and distance.
Was the Phlog counterable? Yes.
Did the defending team fuck up? Yes.
Did they deserve to lose because they fucked up? Yes.
People need to start blaming themselves for making stupid plays instead of finding some scapegoat to salvage their pride. I guarantee if anyone in this thread watched a demo of every time they died to a Pyro, they would immediately realize that either Soldier / Scout could have done the same thing better, or that they could easily avoided dying had someone (including themselves) not fucked up, or both.
why are we still arguing with 4812622 when it's clear he either has never played competitive tf2 at any reasonable level or he has 20IQ and doesn't understand how it should take skill to frag someone.
why are we still arguing with 4812622 when it's clear he either has never played competitive tf2 at any reasonable level or he has 20IQ and doesn't understand how it should take skill to frag someone.
speaking of which, these are pretty fucking retarded opinions for someone who has 17k hours and has played invite
speaking of which, these are pretty fucking retarded opinions for someone who has 17k hours and has played invite
Why are you so desperate to defend pyro?
He adds nothing to the game.
He's not skillful or fun to play with/against.
Pyro's existence can only make competitive tf2 worse.
Why are you so desperate to defend pyro?
He adds nothing to the game.
He's not skillful or fun to play with/against.
Pyro's existence can only make competitive tf2 worse.
He adds nothing to the game.
He's not skillful or fun to play with/against.
Pyro's existence can only make competitive tf2 worse.
whats happening in this thread is just like what happened to plato when he said the earth was round....
whats happening in this thread is just like what happened to plato when he said the earth was round....
Eemes let's at least have some intelligent discussion
guess that was a bit of a longshot
[quote=Eemes] let's at least have some [b]intelligent discussion[/b] [/quote]
guess that was a bit of a longshot
guess that was a bit of a longshot
Cyanicwhy are we still arguing with 4812622 when it's clear he either has never played competitive tf2 at any reasonable level or he has 20IQ and doesn't understand how it should take skill to frag someone.
I don't understand why pubbers and Steel players are trying to play the "you don't have enough competitive experience" card on me.
Hunter_2_0Why are you so desperate to defend pyro?
He adds nothing to the game.
He's not skillful or fun to play with/against.
Pyro's existence can only make competitive tf2 worse.
This shit is as ridiculous as the hysteria back in HRG days when people were blaming the slow metagame on Heavy and Engineer and calling for class limit 0. Offclasses are not uncounterable or broken, they are good for the game. Turtle classes help ensure the dynamism of 6s is preserved by mitigating the heavily unfavorable situation of being stuck on last with Uber disadvantage after wiping on mid. 5CP is good because both teams at any moment have so many options, have to make so many decisions. Pyro is a huge part of being able to defend against a full Uber push into last and the ability to clutch a round from the jaws of defeat makes the game exciting and fun both to watch and to play.
It's not as cut and dry as saying that Pyro slows down the game, either. Certain stalemates that are incredibly difficult to break, like Viaduct forward hold, pushing Granary second, and pushing Gullywash / Blands last, can be broken by running Pyro. This speeds up and freshens the metagame. What's more, the inability of Pyro to effectively hold chokes because of bad range provides opportunities for smart teams to push whereas they wouldn't feel comfortable doing so against a Scout or Soldier, because they are better.
And out of these niche situations, Pyro is still really fucking bad. It is significantly harder to play Pyro full time and win at a high level than Scout and Soldier, which is probably why nobody has done it. Outside of holding last, running Pyro means you're giving up consistency, flexibility, and raw power, which is a huge risk and easily punishable. If you read your opponents tendencies to make mistakes and take the risk of going Pyro instead of staying on the consistently good and almost always better standard classes, and it actually pays off, then that is skill.
Restricting classes alienates your playerbase. Back when I was a pubber, over half my friends who were interested in competitive TF2 were turned off of 6s by a perceived state of staleness and inflexibility and ended up losing interest because pubs and Highlander are boring. My first 6s team had two Pyro mains, a Heavy main, and a Sniper main, but we realized that those classes were inflexible and bad and became fully-fledged 6s players. These are the people who you are turning away from 6s by banning Pyro, and you'll never realize how hard you fucked the playercount because nobody will be here to tell you about it.
Last and least, I personally find reaction reflecting (predicting when they shoot because they're too close to react) to be one of the most challenging and satisfying things in TF2. There are so many things about Pyro, like reflect jumping, or finding new detjump flanks and hiding spots, or maximizing damage per particle, or the Dragon's Fury / Jetpack, that make it so even the best Pyros haven't approached the skill ceiling. I enjoy outplaying people by doing suboptimal, unorthodox things, and I enjoy specifically fighting Pyros as projectile classes because of the psychological intensity that reflecting brings to the matchup.
I understand that there many 6s players who don't share my opinions. Disagreeing with me is fine, but what frustrates me is when people disagree with me and dislike Pyro because they either don't understand or refuse to attempt to understand. There are people in this thread who are arguing that the only counters to Pyro are Sniper and other Pyros, that they win every other matchup. There are people who are arguing the Dragon's Fury is too strong. These things aren't just differences in opinion, they are flat out, factually wrong. So, so, laughably, utterly wrong.
I want to ensure that the hysteria in this thread doesn't spill out of control, and lead to the whitelist getting fucked because ignorant people are consumed with fear of things that they do not understand.
So if anyone wants to actually discuss anything, instead of restating their opinions, flat out telling me I don't know what I'm talking about without a tenth of my experience or any evidence, and posting gifs of confused people, let's do it.
[quote=Cyanic]why are we still arguing with 4812622 when it's clear he either has never played competitive tf2 at any reasonable level or he has 20IQ and doesn't understand how it should take skill to frag someone.[/quote]
I don't understand why pubbers and Steel players are trying to play the "you don't have enough competitive experience" card on me.
[quote=Hunter_2_0]Why are you so desperate to defend pyro?
He adds nothing to the game.
He's not skillful or fun to play with/against.
Pyro's existence can only make competitive tf2 worse.[/quote]
This shit is as ridiculous as the hysteria back in HRG days when people were blaming the slow metagame on Heavy and Engineer and calling for class limit 0. Offclasses are not uncounterable or broken, they are good for the game. Turtle classes help ensure the dynamism of 6s is preserved by mitigating the heavily unfavorable situation of being stuck on last with Uber disadvantage after wiping on mid. 5CP is good because both teams at any moment have so many options, have to make so many decisions. Pyro is a huge part of being able to defend against a full Uber push into last and the ability to clutch a round from the jaws of defeat makes the game exciting and fun both to watch and to play.
It's not as cut and dry as saying that Pyro slows down the game, either. Certain stalemates that are incredibly difficult to break, like Viaduct forward hold, pushing Granary second, and pushing Gullywash / Blands last, can be broken by running Pyro. This speeds up and freshens the metagame. What's more, the inability of Pyro to effectively hold chokes because of bad range provides opportunities for smart teams to push whereas they wouldn't feel comfortable doing so against a Scout or Soldier, because they are better.
And out of these niche situations, Pyro is still really fucking bad. It is significantly harder to play Pyro full time and win at a high level than Scout and Soldier, which is probably why nobody has done it. Outside of holding last, running Pyro means you're giving up consistency, flexibility, and raw power, which is a huge risk and easily punishable. If you read your opponents tendencies to make mistakes and take the risk of going Pyro instead of staying on the consistently good and almost always better standard classes, and it actually pays off, then that is skill.
Restricting classes alienates your playerbase. Back when I was a pubber, over half my friends who were interested in competitive TF2 were turned off of 6s by a perceived state of staleness and inflexibility and ended up losing interest because pubs and Highlander are boring. My first 6s team had two Pyro mains, a Heavy main, and a Sniper main, but we realized that those classes were inflexible and bad and became fully-fledged 6s players. These are the people who you are turning away from 6s by banning Pyro, and you'll never realize how hard you fucked the playercount because nobody will be here to tell you about it.
Last and least, I personally find reaction reflecting (predicting when they shoot because they're too close to react) to be one of the most challenging and satisfying things in TF2. There are so many things about Pyro, like reflect jumping, or finding new detjump flanks and hiding spots, or maximizing damage per particle, or the Dragon's Fury / Jetpack, that make it so even the best Pyros haven't approached the skill ceiling. I enjoy outplaying people by doing suboptimal, unorthodox things, and I enjoy specifically fighting Pyros as projectile classes because of the psychological intensity that reflecting brings to the matchup.
I understand that there many 6s players who don't share my opinions. Disagreeing with me is fine, but what frustrates me is when people disagree with me and dislike Pyro because they either don't understand or refuse to attempt to understand. There are people in this thread who are arguing that the only counters to Pyro are Sniper and other Pyros, that they win every other matchup. There are people who are arguing the Dragon's Fury is too strong. These things aren't just differences in opinion, they are flat out, factually wrong. So, so, laughably, utterly wrong.
I want to ensure that the hysteria in this thread doesn't spill out of control, and lead to the whitelist getting fucked because ignorant people are consumed with fear of things that they do not understand.
So if anyone wants to actually discuss anything, instead of restating their opinions, flat out telling me I don't know what I'm talking about without a tenth of my experience or any evidence, and posting gifs of confused people, let's do it.
I don't understand why pubbers and Steel players are trying to play the "you don't have enough competitive experience" card on me.
[quote=Hunter_2_0]Why are you so desperate to defend pyro?
He adds nothing to the game.
He's not skillful or fun to play with/against.
Pyro's existence can only make competitive tf2 worse.[/quote]
This shit is as ridiculous as the hysteria back in HRG days when people were blaming the slow metagame on Heavy and Engineer and calling for class limit 0. Offclasses are not uncounterable or broken, they are good for the game. Turtle classes help ensure the dynamism of 6s is preserved by mitigating the heavily unfavorable situation of being stuck on last with Uber disadvantage after wiping on mid. 5CP is good because both teams at any moment have so many options, have to make so many decisions. Pyro is a huge part of being able to defend against a full Uber push into last and the ability to clutch a round from the jaws of defeat makes the game exciting and fun both to watch and to play.
It's not as cut and dry as saying that Pyro slows down the game, either. Certain stalemates that are incredibly difficult to break, like Viaduct forward hold, pushing Granary second, and pushing Gullywash / Blands last, can be broken by running Pyro. This speeds up and freshens the metagame. What's more, the inability of Pyro to effectively hold chokes because of bad range provides opportunities for smart teams to push whereas they wouldn't feel comfortable doing so against a Scout or Soldier, because they are better.
And out of these niche situations, Pyro is still really fucking bad. It is significantly harder to play Pyro full time and win at a high level than Scout and Soldier, which is probably why nobody has done it. Outside of holding last, running Pyro means you're giving up consistency, flexibility, and raw power, which is a huge risk and easily punishable. If you read your opponents tendencies to make mistakes and take the risk of going Pyro instead of staying on the consistently good and almost always better standard classes, and it actually pays off, then that is skill.
Restricting classes alienates your playerbase. Back when I was a pubber, over half my friends who were interested in competitive TF2 were turned off of 6s by a perceived state of staleness and inflexibility and ended up losing interest because pubs and Highlander are boring. My first 6s team had two Pyro mains, a Heavy main, and a Sniper main, but we realized that those classes were inflexible and bad and became fully-fledged 6s players. These are the people who you are turning away from 6s by banning Pyro, and you'll never realize how hard you fucked the playercount because nobody will be here to tell you about it.
Last and least, I personally find reaction reflecting (predicting when they shoot because they're too close to react) to be one of the most challenging and satisfying things in TF2. There are so many things about Pyro, like reflect jumping, or finding new detjump flanks and hiding spots, or maximizing damage per particle, or the Dragon's Fury / Jetpack, that make it so even the best Pyros haven't approached the skill ceiling. I enjoy outplaying people by doing suboptimal, unorthodox things, and I enjoy specifically fighting Pyros as projectile classes because of the psychological intensity that reflecting brings to the matchup.
I understand that there many 6s players who don't share my opinions. Disagreeing with me is fine, but what frustrates me is when people disagree with me and dislike Pyro because they either don't understand or refuse to attempt to understand. There are people in this thread who are arguing that the only counters to Pyro are Sniper and other Pyros, that they win every other matchup. There are people who are arguing the Dragon's Fury is too strong. These things aren't just differences in opinion, they are flat out, factually wrong. So, so, laughably, utterly wrong.
I want to ensure that the hysteria in this thread doesn't spill out of control, and lead to the whitelist getting fucked because ignorant people are consumed with fear of things that they do not understand.
So if anyone wants to actually discuss anything, instead of restating their opinions, flat out telling me I don't know what I'm talking about without a tenth of my experience or any evidence, and posting gifs of confused people, let's do it.
consider urself Trolled.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/424322448260071435/427851716315185163/unknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/424322448260071435/427851778596536321/unknown.png
hint bc ur not getting it: it's not hard to have the moral/logical high ground when defending your position, regardless of what's being discussed, nothing will ever come out of it because admins are pussies regardless of who's right, nobody actually cares, people have the right to express frustration
consider urself Trolled.
[img]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/424322448260071435/427851716315185163/unknown.png[/img]
[img]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/424322448260071435/427851778596536321/unknown.png[/img]
hint bc ur not getting it: it's not hard to have the moral/logical high ground when defending your position, regardless of what's being discussed, nothing will ever come out of it because admins are pussies regardless of who's right, nobody actually cares, people have the right to express frustration
[img]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/424322448260071435/427851716315185163/unknown.png[/img]
[img]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/424322448260071435/427851778596536321/unknown.png[/img]
hint bc ur not getting it: it's not hard to have the moral/logical high ground when defending your position, regardless of what's being discussed, nothing will ever come out of it because admins are pussies regardless of who's right, nobody actually cares, people have the right to express frustration
TwiiKuuhint bc ur not getting it: it's not hard to have the moral/logical high ground when defending your position, regardless of what's being discussed, nothing will ever come out of it because admins are pussies, nobody actually cares, people have the right to express frustration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_entitled_to_my_opinion
As for assuming the admins won't make drastically misinformed decisions, I used to think like you.
But they banned the Dragon's Fury, which makes 0 sense, and I honestly believe they are going after the Detonator next.
So no, I am not going to allow people to spread misinformation and rabble rouse, because I think it does have real consequences. I also don't want lurkers to come upon this thread and perpetuate inaccurate criticism of the game.
If you admit that you are on the moral / logical low ground, you can't just stay there because it's comfortable, because changing hurts, because it means you were wrong. You should seek the moral and logical high ground in all things even if it hurts, because it leads you to being better for it. Don't become so attached to what you believe that you're not willing to shift your beliefs upon realizing that they make no sense. That leads to personal stagnation and prevents you from reaching your potential.
[quote=TwiiKuu]hint bc ur not getting it: it's not hard to have the moral/logical high ground when defending your position, regardless of what's being discussed, nothing will ever come out of it because admins are pussies, nobody actually cares, people have the right to express frustration[/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_entitled_to_my_opinion
As for assuming the admins won't make drastically misinformed decisions, I used to think like you.
But they banned the Dragon's Fury, which makes 0 sense, and I honestly believe they are going after the Detonator next.
So no, I am not going to allow people to spread misinformation and rabble rouse, because I think it does have real consequences. I also don't want lurkers to come upon this thread and perpetuate inaccurate criticism of the game.
If you admit that you are on the moral / logical low ground, you can't just stay there because it's comfortable, because changing hurts, because it means you were wrong. You should seek the moral and logical high ground in all things even if it hurts, because it leads you to being better for it. Don't become so attached to what you believe that you're not willing to shift your beliefs upon realizing that they make no sense. That leads to personal stagnation and prevents you from reaching your potential.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_entitled_to_my_opinion
As for assuming the admins won't make drastically misinformed decisions, I used to think like you.
But they banned the Dragon's Fury, which makes 0 sense, and I honestly believe they are going after the Detonator next.
So no, I am not going to allow people to spread misinformation and rabble rouse, because I think it does have real consequences. I also don't want lurkers to come upon this thread and perpetuate inaccurate criticism of the game.
If you admit that you are on the moral / logical low ground, you can't just stay there because it's comfortable, because changing hurts, because it means you were wrong. You should seek the moral and logical high ground in all things even if it hurts, because it leads you to being better for it. Don't become so attached to what you believe that you're not willing to shift your beliefs upon realizing that they make no sense. That leads to personal stagnation and prevents you from reaching your potential.
btw the prosposed change to ban pyro is temporary until an actual fix to the class' botched update comes out. not that we should ban pyro forever
btw the prosposed change to ban pyro is temporary until an actual fix to the class' botched update comes out. not that we should ban pyro forever
povbtw the prosposed change to ban pyro is temporary until an actual fix to the class' botched update comes out. not that we should ban pyro forever
I know.
[quote=pov]btw the prosposed change to ban pyro is temporary until an actual fix to the class' botched update comes out. not that we should ban pyro forever[/quote]
I know.
I know.
Please
sign in through STEAM
to post a comment.