YeeHawIf it’s going to ‘certainly’ be annoying, what is the point of unbanning it if it’s going to be useless otherwise? You’ve just made the game more annoying for no benefit
if u cant see the benefit, ur a short-sighted ignorant bastard....
so uhh..
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
[quote=YeeHaw]
If it’s going to ‘certainly’ be annoying, what is the point of unbanning it if it’s going to be useless otherwise? You’ve just made the game more annoying for no benefit[/quote]
if u cant see the benefit, ur a short-sighted ignorant bastard....
If it’s going to ‘certainly’ be annoying, what is the point of unbanning it if it’s going to be useless otherwise? You’ve just made the game more annoying for no benefit[/quote]
if u cant see the benefit, ur a short-sighted ignorant bastard....
Valve working with you guys to make the game esport ready has got to be one of the most meager, disingenuous, incompetent, phlegmatic, and utterly arrogant efforts I’ve seen anyone undertake. Faster than a speeding tortoise, too. If it isn’t, they’ve done a terrible job indicating otherwise.
If this b4nny quote is the premise: “MM and league formats MUST converge for esports viability. I do not believe Valve will ever implement item bans or class limits, so a lot of the change falls on the community. Rebalance of classes and items will be necessary, but league adoption will accelerate that process.”
Which, it is, right? That’s the whole point?
No one in here is saying bonk and soda popper will help the game evolve in positive ways.
I also don’t see any pub pyro mains breaking their piggy banks and asking mom to up their allowance by a couple quarters so they can mail ESEA money because HYPE they can finally use the scooba crit pyro weapon that lets you crit underwater!
So, as much as people want to say they aren’t suffering from the delusion that tf2 is gonna make it big… that’s really all it comes down to, right? The hope of that actually happening?
I’m not gonna tell you which unlocks should or shouldn’t be allowed, because I’m not qualified to. Do I think most of them are dumb? Sure. Do I think the newer maps heavily favor a class that is already too favored by the demo nerf and med buff? Sure. My opinions don’t matter, though, because I don’t play the game anymore. I’m not going to tell people who play the game now at a higher level than I did -- or, for that matter at level higher than even existed when I played -- I’m not going presume to tell you how to play.
But come on, is anyone really buying into valve’s bullshit? Matchmaking didn’t exist for nearly a decade. Then another really successful class based shooter, marketed as an esport and with a matchmaking system shows up on the horizon and suddenly OH FUCK LETS ADD MATCHMAKING!
Two years later, it’s still shit.
Forget that competitive mode still forces dx9 and viewmodels. Forget the lack of class limits and item restrictions. Forget that random crits still exist for some reason. This is the same company with successful matchmaking processes in CS:GO and DOTA. The interface still looks horrendous, it’s buggy, casual still (unsuccessfully) tries to autobalance servers by splitting up people who queued together. Over the course of YEARS, they can’t even get right the shit they already got right somewhere else. How the fuck are they gonna market a 10 year old, goofy, cartoon hat trading game as anything other than what it seems?
It’s disrespectful of them. All the shit that makes competitive tf2 great, valve made BY ACCIDENT. Valve had no idea people would be able play these classes the way they’re played, rocket jump the way people do, hit crazy surfs, push off the little advantages you guys value… Other than the mechanic of uber and the classes themselves being valve’s intellectual property, TF2 is your game. Not theirs. They’ve proven time after time that they both care about it less and understand it less than you do. Valve handed you a sandbox, and for years, you begged for help. Valve didn’t give a shit.
So you did it all yourself. You made configs when valve wouldn’t, you made huds when valve wouldn’t. You advertised when valve wouldn’t. You made plug-ins, maps, and entire game-modes when valve wouldn’t. You banned weapons when valve wouldn’t fix them. You restricted classes when valve wouldn’t balance them. You guys bent over backward to make the game what it is, you sent teams across the world on your own dime… and to help you out, I distinctly remember valve’s contribution: They posted a picture of a charge and targe demo on pl_goldrush with a small heading about i46 about half way down their news page.
While you guys built a game, valve was still busy breaking theirs. The aging game somehow became more demanding on our computers. A host of broken/useless/low-skill weapons were added; they dug themselves deeper and deeper into the pit of shit they’d have to eventually rebalance. Meanwhile, the pub experience worsened as a result.
Have any of you considered what it’d be like to pick up the game and start pubbing in this era? Most of us started varying degrees of way the fuck long ago, when there weren’t that many unlocks, and people still capped intel on 2fort. Things were simpler back then. The pub game was easier to learn, and we could learn about new weapons one at a time… shit, after a while we got so good by pub standards we didn’t even have to care about new weapons.
A new player today is going to be thrown into a purely chaotic affair, muddled with the congested spam of around 200 unique weapons which often make the same class play in ways polarly opposite to usual. Don’t forget there’s also a good chance he gets to experience that on 12v12 2fort.
When we first picked up the game, we weren’t all good at it, but we all wanted to keep playing anyway. It was fun, so we wanted to get good. I still have fun pubbing, but golly fucking jeepers, I cannot imagine how little I’d play this game in its current state (still talking about pubs here) if I wasn’t good at it. Seriously, imagine pubbing right now in this version of the game, imagine you’ve never played the game before and you suck at it… would you stick around? Casual TF2 isn’t the same game we knew and loved. TF2 fucking blows now.
So, after all the blood sweat and tears you put in to the game, and after all valve has done to fuck that game up, they have the nerve to come to you and be like “Hey man, you gotta do it our way… also all this bullshit we released, yeah you gotta work around that too, we aren’t sorry.” Are you fucking kidding me lol?
What’s the point of avoiding attempting careers in overwatch so you don’t “sell out” when the entire premise of tf2 MAYBE having a chance at (never) becoming an esport is that you compromise the game’s competitive integrity and potentially change the face of the game into something unrecognizable in the process?
Valve working with you guys to make the game esport ready has got to be one of the most meager, disingenuous, incompetent, phlegmatic, and utterly arrogant efforts I’ve seen anyone undertake. Faster than a speeding tortoise, too. If it isn’t, they’ve done a terrible job indicating otherwise.
If this b4nny quote is the premise: “MM and league formats MUST converge for esports viability. I do not believe Valve will ever implement item bans or class limits, so a lot of the change falls on the community. Rebalance of classes and items will be necessary, but league adoption will accelerate that process.”
Which, it is, right? That’s the whole point?
No one in here is saying bonk and soda popper will help the game evolve in positive ways.
I also don’t see any pub pyro mains breaking their piggy banks and asking mom to up their allowance by a couple quarters so they can mail ESEA money because HYPE they can finally use the scooba crit pyro weapon that lets you crit underwater!
So, as much as people want to say they aren’t suffering from the delusion that tf2 is gonna make it big… that’s really all it comes down to, right? The hope of that actually happening?
I’m not gonna tell you which unlocks should or shouldn’t be allowed, because I’m not qualified to. Do I think most of them are dumb? Sure. Do I think the newer maps heavily favor a class that is already too favored by the demo nerf and med buff? Sure. My opinions don’t matter, though, because I don’t play the game anymore. I’m not going to tell people who play the game now at a higher level than I did -- or, for that matter at level higher than even existed when I played -- I’m not going presume to tell you how to play.
But come on, is anyone really buying into valve’s bullshit? Matchmaking didn’t exist for nearly a decade. Then another really successful class based shooter, marketed as an esport and with a matchmaking system shows up on the horizon and suddenly OH FUCK LETS ADD MATCHMAKING!
Two years later, it’s still shit.
Forget that competitive mode still forces dx9 and viewmodels. Forget the lack of class limits and item restrictions. Forget that random crits still exist for some reason. This is the same company with successful matchmaking processes in CS:GO and DOTA. The interface still looks horrendous, it’s buggy, casual still (unsuccessfully) tries to autobalance servers by splitting up people who queued together. Over the course of YEARS, they can’t even get right the shit they already got right somewhere else. How the fuck are they gonna market a 10 year old, goofy, cartoon hat trading game as anything other than what it seems?
It’s disrespectful of them. All the shit that makes competitive tf2 great, valve made BY ACCIDENT. Valve had no idea people would be able play these classes the way they’re played, rocket jump the way people do, hit crazy surfs, push off the little advantages you guys value… Other than the mechanic of uber and the classes themselves being valve’s intellectual property, TF2 is your game. Not theirs. They’ve proven time after time that they both care about it less and understand it less than you do. Valve handed you a sandbox, and for years, you begged for help. Valve didn’t give a shit.
So you did it all yourself. You made configs when valve wouldn’t, you made huds when valve wouldn’t. You advertised when valve wouldn’t. You made plug-ins, maps, and entire game-modes when valve wouldn’t. You banned weapons when valve wouldn’t fix them. You restricted classes when valve wouldn’t balance them. You guys bent over backward to make the game what it is, you sent teams across the world on your own dime… and to help you out, I distinctly remember valve’s contribution: They posted a picture of a charge and targe demo on pl_goldrush with a small heading about i46 about half way down their news page.
While you guys built a game, valve was still busy breaking theirs. The aging game somehow became more demanding on our computers. A host of broken/useless/low-skill weapons were added; they dug themselves deeper and deeper into the pit of shit they’d have to eventually rebalance. Meanwhile, the pub experience worsened as a result.
Have any of you considered what it’d be like to pick up the game and start pubbing in this era? Most of us started varying degrees of way the fuck long ago, when there weren’t that many unlocks, and people still capped intel on 2fort. Things were simpler back then. The pub game was easier to learn, and we could learn about new weapons one at a time… shit, after a while we got so good by pub standards we didn’t even have to care about new weapons.
A new player today is going to be thrown into a purely chaotic affair, muddled with the congested spam of around 200 unique weapons which often make the same class play in ways polarly opposite to usual. Don’t forget there’s also a good chance he gets to experience that on 12v12 2fort.
When we first picked up the game, we weren’t all good at it, but we all wanted to keep playing anyway. It was fun, so we wanted to get good. I still have fun pubbing, but golly fucking jeepers, I cannot imagine how little I’d play this game in its current state (still talking about pubs here) if I wasn’t good at it. Seriously, imagine pubbing right now in this version of the game, imagine you’ve never played the game before and you suck at it… would you stick around? Casual TF2 isn’t the same game we knew and loved. TF2 fucking blows now.
So, after all the blood sweat and tears you put in to the game, and after all valve has done to fuck that game up, they have the nerve to come to you and be like “Hey man, you gotta do it our way… also all this bullshit we released, yeah you gotta work around that too, we aren’t sorry.” Are you fucking kidding me lol?
What’s the point of avoiding attempting careers in overwatch so you don’t “sell out” when the entire premise of tf2 MAYBE having a chance at (never) becoming an esport is that you compromise the game’s competitive integrity and potentially change the face of the game into something unrecognizable in the process?
If this b4nny quote is the premise: “MM and league formats MUST converge for esports viability. I do not believe Valve will ever implement item bans or class limits, so a lot of the change falls on the community. Rebalance of classes and items will be necessary, but league adoption will accelerate that process.”
Which, it is, right? That’s the whole point?
No one in here is saying bonk and soda popper will help the game evolve in positive ways.
I also don’t see any pub pyro mains breaking their piggy banks and asking mom to up their allowance by a couple quarters so they can mail ESEA money because HYPE they can finally use the scooba crit pyro weapon that lets you crit underwater!
So, as much as people want to say they aren’t suffering from the delusion that tf2 is gonna make it big… that’s really all it comes down to, right? The hope of that actually happening?
I’m not gonna tell you which unlocks should or shouldn’t be allowed, because I’m not qualified to. Do I think most of them are dumb? Sure. Do I think the newer maps heavily favor a class that is already too favored by the demo nerf and med buff? Sure. My opinions don’t matter, though, because I don’t play the game anymore. I’m not going to tell people who play the game now at a higher level than I did -- or, for that matter at level higher than even existed when I played -- I’m not going presume to tell you how to play.
But come on, is anyone really buying into valve’s bullshit? Matchmaking didn’t exist for nearly a decade. Then another really successful class based shooter, marketed as an esport and with a matchmaking system shows up on the horizon and suddenly OH FUCK LETS ADD MATCHMAKING!
Two years later, it’s still shit.
Forget that competitive mode still forces dx9 and viewmodels. Forget the lack of class limits and item restrictions. Forget that random crits still exist for some reason. This is the same company with successful matchmaking processes in CS:GO and DOTA. The interface still looks horrendous, it’s buggy, casual still (unsuccessfully) tries to autobalance servers by splitting up people who queued together. Over the course of YEARS, they can’t even get right the shit they already got right somewhere else. How the fuck are they gonna market a 10 year old, goofy, cartoon hat trading game as anything other than what it seems?
It’s disrespectful of them. All the shit that makes competitive tf2 great, valve made BY ACCIDENT. Valve had no idea people would be able play these classes the way they’re played, rocket jump the way people do, hit crazy surfs, push off the little advantages you guys value… Other than the mechanic of uber and the classes themselves being valve’s intellectual property, TF2 is your game. Not theirs. They’ve proven time after time that they both care about it less and understand it less than you do. Valve handed you a sandbox, and for years, you begged for help. Valve didn’t give a shit.
So you did it all yourself. You made configs when valve wouldn’t, you made huds when valve wouldn’t. You advertised when valve wouldn’t. You made plug-ins, maps, and entire game-modes when valve wouldn’t. You banned weapons when valve wouldn’t fix them. You restricted classes when valve wouldn’t balance them. You guys bent over backward to make the game what it is, you sent teams across the world on your own dime… and to help you out, I distinctly remember valve’s contribution: They posted a picture of a charge and targe demo on pl_goldrush with a small heading about i46 about half way down their news page.
While you guys built a game, valve was still busy breaking theirs. The aging game somehow became more demanding on our computers. A host of broken/useless/low-skill weapons were added; they dug themselves deeper and deeper into the pit of shit they’d have to eventually rebalance. Meanwhile, the pub experience worsened as a result.
Have any of you considered what it’d be like to pick up the game and start pubbing in this era? Most of us started varying degrees of way the fuck long ago, when there weren’t that many unlocks, and people still capped intel on 2fort. Things were simpler back then. The pub game was easier to learn, and we could learn about new weapons one at a time… shit, after a while we got so good by pub standards we didn’t even have to care about new weapons.
A new player today is going to be thrown into a purely chaotic affair, muddled with the congested spam of around 200 unique weapons which often make the same class play in ways polarly opposite to usual. Don’t forget there’s also a good chance he gets to experience that on 12v12 2fort.
When we first picked up the game, we weren’t all good at it, but we all wanted to keep playing anyway. It was fun, so we wanted to get good. I still have fun pubbing, but golly fucking jeepers, I cannot imagine how little I’d play this game in its current state (still talking about pubs here) if I wasn’t good at it. Seriously, imagine pubbing right now in this version of the game, imagine you’ve never played the game before and you suck at it… would you stick around? Casual TF2 isn’t the same game we knew and loved. TF2 fucking blows now.
So, after all the blood sweat and tears you put in to the game, and after all valve has done to fuck that game up, they have the nerve to come to you and be like “Hey man, you gotta do it our way… also all this bullshit we released, yeah you gotta work around that too, we aren’t sorry.” Are you fucking kidding me lol?
What’s the point of avoiding attempting careers in overwatch so you don’t “sell out” when the entire premise of tf2 MAYBE having a chance at (never) becoming an esport is that you compromise the game’s competitive integrity and potentially change the face of the game into something unrecognizable in the process?
So b4nny wants to make 6v6 more like MM. Ok. Then by that standard, he should also be advocating for KoTH, CTF, and Payload. Right? Cause if he REALLY thinks that valve would respond to this game if we make it more "pub" friendly, we shouldn't limit ourselves to one game mode right? We should include every type under the sun, including Doomsday, PassTime, and the one with Grapple Hooks if he truly thinks this restrictionless route will gain us any points with Valve.
So why is he advocating for 5cp only? He does realize that MM includes Turbine, Swiftwater, Badlands, and Viaduct right???
His argument just doesn't work. You either gotta full commit or not. Either way it's stupid.
So b4nny wants to make 6v6 more like MM. Ok. Then by that standard, he should also be advocating for KoTH, CTF, and Payload. Right? Cause if he REALLY thinks that valve would respond to this game if we make it more "pub" friendly, we shouldn't limit ourselves to one game mode right? We should include every type under the sun, including Doomsday, PassTime, and the one with Grapple Hooks if he truly thinks this restrictionless route will gain us any points with Valve.
So why is he advocating for 5cp only? He does realize that MM includes Turbine, Swiftwater, Badlands, and Viaduct right???
His argument just doesn't work. You either gotta full commit or not. Either way it's stupid.
So why is he advocating for 5cp only? He does realize that MM includes Turbine, Swiftwater, Badlands, and Viaduct right???
His argument just doesn't work. You either gotta full commit or not. Either way it's stupid.
sildeezy...
^
Very good writeup of the frustrations of the past 5+ years trying to make this game into something. Should read if you're not 100% in the loop.
So, after all the blood sweat and tears you put in to the game, and after all valve has done to fuck that game up, they have the nerve to come to you and be like “Hey man, you gotta do it our way… also all this bullshit we released, yeah you gotta work around that too, we aren’t sorry.” Are you fucking kidding me lol?
Although I don't think this is the correct conclusion to draw.
People shouldn't be frustrated with Valve for taking this stance. They should be frustrated at this communities delusional leadership for sticking with the decision to try and meet Valve's ridiculous demands for so long. It is most disrespectful of THEM, not Valve, for sticking with this slow descent of undoing the rulesets and heart of the competitive 6v6 gamemode.
6v6 has lost so much of its integrity. And sadly, its only getting worse.
It does not make much sense for Valve to invest in an off-brand gamemode, in a very aging game. As such their staff is simply focused on other projects. Valve Matchmaking is a horrible version of 6v6. Stop working towards it.
[quote=sildeezy]...[/quote]
^
Very good writeup of the frustrations of the past 5+ years trying to make this game into something. Should read if you're not 100% in the loop.
[quote]So, after all the blood sweat and tears you put in to the game, and after all valve has done to fuck that game up, they have the nerve to come to you and be like “Hey man, you gotta do it our way… also all this bullshit we released, yeah you gotta work around that too, we aren’t sorry.” Are you fucking kidding me lol?[/quote]
Although I don't think this is the correct conclusion to draw.
People shouldn't be frustrated with Valve for taking this stance. They should be frustrated at this communities delusional leadership for sticking with the decision to try and meet Valve's ridiculous demands for so long. It is most disrespectful of THEM, not Valve, for sticking with this slow descent of undoing the rulesets and heart of the competitive 6v6 gamemode.
6v6 has lost so much of its integrity. And sadly, its only getting worse.
It does not make much sense for Valve to invest in an off-brand gamemode, in a very aging game. As such their staff is simply focused on other projects. Valve Matchmaking is a horrible version of 6v6. Stop working towards it.
^
Very good writeup of the frustrations of the past 5+ years trying to make this game into something. Should read if you're not 100% in the loop.
[quote]So, after all the blood sweat and tears you put in to the game, and after all valve has done to fuck that game up, they have the nerve to come to you and be like “Hey man, you gotta do it our way… also all this bullshit we released, yeah you gotta work around that too, we aren’t sorry.” Are you fucking kidding me lol?[/quote]
Although I don't think this is the correct conclusion to draw.
People shouldn't be frustrated with Valve for taking this stance. They should be frustrated at this communities delusional leadership for sticking with the decision to try and meet Valve's ridiculous demands for so long. It is most disrespectful of THEM, not Valve, for sticking with this slow descent of undoing the rulesets and heart of the competitive 6v6 gamemode.
6v6 has lost so much of its integrity. And sadly, its only getting worse.
It does not make much sense for Valve to invest in an off-brand gamemode, in a very aging game. As such their staff is simply focused on other projects. Valve Matchmaking is a horrible version of 6v6. Stop working towards it.
I don’t want people to think what I write here is fact but merely how I feel about the approach to TF2’s banning should be done and just a general rant of how things are being done. Within the community there is a lot of qualms with the current attitude of weapon banning. People don’t seem to even remotely share the same sentiments as each other not only among the top level of competition but at all levels.
I think this stems from the approach taken by the community during previous meetings when deciding how to appropriately ban weapons. The consensus is that a weapon must violate one of two conditions.
- Weapon is overpowered and considerably disruptive to gameplay (Such as the Quick-Fix)
- Weapon has existing bug and exploits
While I think its fair that objectively this is a great way to look at how to ban weapons, the issue of such an approach is that is don’t consider what is within the spirit of competition. This is where I’ll say immediately that if you disagree with this line of thinking that is completely fine, but I also believe a lot of the community shares this common frustration.
At the end of the day, we’re all playing, spectating and following competitive TF2 because we love it. It’s been refined slowly from TF2 initial launch where people were trying numerous different formats, to EU and NA’s first clash to now. What has always important more than anything is that as Slideezy said, TF2 is our game. A 6 player format every other condition was picked and chosen on the basis that is what in the interest of those who cared the most about playing the game. But by taking this “Accept Valve’s terms” goes against the very nature of how the competitive TF2 came to be in the first place.
It would be fair to say that changes have been made to 6’s beyond its initial conception through items and further class limit reductions. What is important to remember that these changes were for most of the game’s life span made for the sake of keeping the game’s competitive integrity intact. Caving unwillingly to “what Valve wants” is going against that very belief. Item’s like Bonk and the Solemn Vow weren’t banned because FUCK VALVE, but because they’re only use wasn’t in the interest of good gameplay.
I’ll pose the question again for the sake of it. What positive impact would say Bonk have on the game?
The design of Bonk just isn’t an interesting gameplay dynamic. At the very best like a lot of the higher levels seem to believe it’ll be a non-issue. But if it adds nothing, then I see no good reason that the weapon should be unbanned. Because in any other scenario it will have a negative impact on game flow.
Solemn Vow while I’ve previously been adamant against, I can see an exception being made depending on your view point. My issue with the Solemn Vow has always been it takes away from the game without really adding, it allows Medic to read health and ubers of the enemy team. Which has a negative impact of bluffing and faking Medic’s could call them at any time. While I agree that this would give Medic a more proactive role in calling, I think what it sacrifices isn’t within the spirit of the game. But I would also accept that this may not be too impactful to gameplay.
At the end of the day, I think the way things are being done and the motive behind them is agreeably flawed. Most people here I think are willing to accept change under the premise that it makes the game we made as a community more engaging but b4nny’s goal isn’t within those interests. It is for a belief that utilizing Valve’s format will revitalize the game. Which as a lot of people have already state is a lot of ifs that put the existing community at risk of completely dying if said plan fails.
I think it is completely acceptable that the community feel threatened by this. Since these choices aren’t the consensus of the whole community but rather a sole individual whose income is dictated by the very same game. Of course, it would be within his interests to try and push anything possible that would increase that income, but it comes at a sacrifice of the existing community.
It is a very harsh pill to swallow considering how the road has been since that initial announcement of in-game MM coming have been met with at best “mixed” reception.
All these updates have honestly done very little to prove the credibility of competitive TF2 for several factors.
1. Meet your Match was a disaster
Meet your Match has been possibly one of the most influential updates in TF2’s history. Except majority of the is for mostly negative reasons. Match-making for casual was completely redone and for a lot of people has ruined the experience of TF2 as a whole. This created a lot of negative stigma towards the competitive community because this update was a long time coming and was meant to be “our” update, but it ended up impacting the rest of the community in a way they did not like.
2. Communication is non-existent
Regardless of your opinion on Quake Champions, after being involved with it over the second half of this year. There is no word that exists to properly express how angry Valve’s lack of communication makes me. A discord with the developers, monthly dev livestreams going over what’s happening and their roadmap for the upcoming months, blog posts and constant patches, a PTS to refine changes before they go live (remember when TF2 had that).
The best TF2 gets is “update will be cool beans.”
Don’t get me wrong, they’ve done alright in the past, but the issue is there is absolutely zero consistency with how this is managed. How does anyone expect the community to just accept Valve’s terms when we can’t even get a weekly, monthly, bi-monthly or even general update of how things are going and the flow.
Even just talking about concepts and ideas they have gives the community fuel for discussion which could be immensely valuable for them. I get Valve typically doesn’t like to steer or influence community discussion but holy fuck man.
3. The mess is still being cleaned up
It’s been over 3 years and closing in on 4 since we first got news that in-game MM was being worked on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UelPvdGskv4
Yet here we are all that time later with a competitive mode that barely represents how competitive is played. With dumb restrictions on config options, no class limits or item bans. A stick-det bug that still isn’t fixed and a viewership that has plummeted harshly.
No one plays the in-game matchmaking, but why?
Because it satisfies no one. As people have continuously stated and pointed out. Little jimmy isn’t going to suddenly change his mind and get into competitive just because he can play engineer with the rescue ranger and wrangler. Competitive isn’t and never will be within the casual interest because it is so jarringly different from casual play. This is where this same source of hatred for the MyM update comes from because it actively fucked with the aspect of the game they enjoyed.
On the other hand, competitive players see no reason to touch it when they have an existing community that already perfectly represents what they want to play and it’s going to take some good proof to change that mindset.
I could list more reasons, but the point is that despite the initial hype and interest that Valve’s support garnered. It has had a negative impact on the scene in general and I think it’s incredibly selfish to expect people to continue to accept their support upon that premise.
Thank you for listening to my autistic rant, I'm too lazy to fix grammar errors so I'm sorry in advance.
I don’t want people to think what I write here is fact but merely how I feel about the approach to TF2’s banning should be done and just a general rant of how things are being done. Within the community there is a lot of qualms with the current attitude of weapon banning. People don’t seem to even remotely share the same sentiments as each other not only among the top level of competition but at all levels.
I think this stems from the approach taken by the community during previous meetings when deciding how to appropriately ban weapons. The consensus is that a weapon must violate one of two conditions.
- Weapon is overpowered and considerably disruptive to gameplay (Such as the Quick-Fix)
- Weapon has existing bug and exploits
While I think its fair that objectively this is a great way to look at how to ban weapons, the issue of such an approach is that is don’t consider what is within the spirit of competition. This is where I’ll say immediately that if you disagree with this line of thinking that is completely fine, but I also believe a lot of the community shares this common frustration.
At the end of the day, we’re all playing, spectating and following competitive TF2 because we love it. It’s been refined slowly from TF2 initial launch where people were trying numerous different formats, to EU and NA’s first clash to now. What has always important more than anything is that as Slideezy said, TF2 is our game. A 6 player format every other condition was picked and chosen on the basis that is what in the interest of those who cared the most about playing the game. But by taking this “Accept Valve’s terms” goes against the very nature of how the competitive TF2 came to be in the first place.
It would be fair to say that changes have been made to 6’s beyond its initial conception through items and further class limit reductions. What is important to remember that these changes were for most of the game’s life span made for the sake of keeping the game’s competitive integrity intact. Caving unwillingly to “what Valve wants” is going against that very belief. Item’s like Bonk and the Solemn Vow weren’t banned because FUCK VALVE, but because they’re only use wasn’t in the interest of good gameplay.
I’ll pose the question again for the sake of it. What positive impact would say Bonk have on the game?
The design of Bonk just isn’t an interesting gameplay dynamic. At the very best like a lot of the higher levels seem to believe it’ll be a non-issue. But if it adds nothing, then I see no good reason that the weapon should be unbanned. Because in any other scenario it will have a negative impact on game flow.
Solemn Vow while I’ve previously been adamant against, I can see an exception being made depending on your view point. My issue with the Solemn Vow has always been it takes away from the game without really adding, it allows Medic to read health and ubers of the enemy team. Which has a negative impact of bluffing and faking Medic’s could call them at any time. While I agree that this would give Medic a more proactive role in calling, I think what it sacrifices isn’t within the spirit of the game. But I would also accept that this may not be too impactful to gameplay.
At the end of the day, I think the way things are being done and the motive behind them is agreeably flawed. Most people here I think are willing to accept change under the premise that it makes the game we made as a community more engaging but b4nny’s goal isn’t within those interests. It is for a belief that utilizing Valve’s format will revitalize the game. Which as a lot of people have already state is a lot of ifs that put the existing community at risk of completely dying if said plan fails.
I think it is completely acceptable that the community feel threatened by this. Since these choices aren’t the consensus of the whole community but rather a sole individual whose income is dictated by the very same game. Of course, it would be within his interests to try and push anything possible that would increase that income, but it comes at a sacrifice of the existing community.
It is a very harsh pill to swallow considering how the road has been since that initial announcement of in-game MM coming have been met with at best “mixed” reception.
All these updates have honestly done very little to prove the credibility of competitive TF2 for several factors.
1. Meet your Match was a disaster
Meet your Match has been possibly one of the most influential updates in TF2’s history. Except majority of the is for mostly negative reasons. Match-making for casual was completely redone and for a lot of people has ruined the experience of TF2 as a whole. This created a lot of negative stigma towards the competitive community because this update was a long time coming and was meant to be “our” update, but it ended up impacting the rest of the community in a way they did not like.
2. Communication is non-existent
Regardless of your opinion on Quake Champions, after being involved with it over the second half of this year. There is no word that exists to properly express how angry Valve’s lack of communication makes me. A discord with the developers, monthly dev livestreams going over what’s happening and their roadmap for the upcoming months, blog posts and constant patches, a PTS to refine changes before they go live (remember when TF2 had that).
The best TF2 gets is “update will be cool beans.”
Don’t get me wrong, they’ve done alright in the past, but the issue is there is absolutely zero consistency with how this is managed. How does anyone expect the community to just accept Valve’s terms when we can’t even get a weekly, monthly, bi-monthly or even general update of how things are going and the flow.
Even just talking about concepts and ideas they have gives the community fuel for discussion which could be immensely valuable for them. I get Valve typically doesn’t like to steer or influence community discussion but holy fuck man.
3. The mess is still being cleaned up
It’s been over 3 years and closing in on 4 since we first got news that in-game MM was being worked on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UelPvdGskv4
Yet here we are all that time later with a competitive mode that barely represents how competitive is played. With dumb restrictions on config options, no class limits or item bans. A stick-det bug that still isn’t fixed and a viewership that has plummeted harshly.
No one plays the in-game matchmaking, but why?
Because it satisfies no one. As people have continuously stated and pointed out. Little jimmy isn’t going to suddenly change his mind and get into competitive just because he can play engineer with the rescue ranger and wrangler. Competitive isn’t and never will be within the casual interest because it is so jarringly different from casual play. This is where this same source of hatred for the MyM update comes from because it actively fucked with the aspect of the game they enjoyed.
On the other hand, competitive players see no reason to touch it when they have an existing community that already perfectly represents what they want to play and it’s going to take some good proof to change that mindset.
I could list more reasons, but the point is that despite the initial hype and interest that Valve’s support garnered. It has had a negative impact on the scene in general and I think it’s incredibly selfish to expect people to continue to accept their support upon that premise.
Thank you for listening to my autistic rant, I'm too lazy to fix grammar errors so I'm sorry in advance.
I think this stems from the approach taken by the community during previous meetings when deciding how to appropriately ban weapons. The consensus is that a weapon must violate one of two conditions.
- Weapon is overpowered and considerably disruptive to gameplay (Such as the Quick-Fix)
- Weapon has existing bug and exploits
While I think its fair that objectively this is a great way to look at how to ban weapons, the issue of such an approach is that is don’t consider what is within the spirit of competition. This is where I’ll say immediately that if you disagree with this line of thinking that is completely fine, but I also believe a lot of the community shares this common frustration.
At the end of the day, we’re all playing, spectating and following competitive TF2 because we love it. It’s been refined slowly from TF2 initial launch where people were trying numerous different formats, to EU and NA’s first clash to now. What has always important more than anything is that as Slideezy said, TF2 is our game. A 6 player format every other condition was picked and chosen on the basis that is what in the interest of those who cared the most about playing the game. But by taking this “Accept Valve’s terms” goes against the very nature of how the competitive TF2 came to be in the first place.
It would be fair to say that changes have been made to 6’s beyond its initial conception through items and further class limit reductions. What is important to remember that these changes were for most of the game’s life span made for the sake of keeping the game’s competitive integrity intact. Caving unwillingly to “what Valve wants” is going against that very belief. Item’s like Bonk and the Solemn Vow weren’t banned because FUCK VALVE, but because they’re only use wasn’t in the interest of good gameplay.
I’ll pose the question again for the sake of it. What positive impact would say Bonk have on the game?
The design of Bonk just isn’t an interesting gameplay dynamic. At the very best like a lot of the higher levels seem to believe it’ll be a non-issue. But if it adds nothing, then I see no good reason that the weapon should be unbanned. Because in any other scenario it will have a negative impact on game flow.
Solemn Vow while I’ve previously been adamant against, I can see an exception being made depending on your view point. My issue with the Solemn Vow has always been it takes away from the game without really adding, it allows Medic to read health and ubers of the enemy team. Which has a negative impact of bluffing and faking Medic’s could call them at any time. While I agree that this would give Medic a more proactive role in calling, I think what it sacrifices isn’t within the spirit of the game. But I would also accept that this may not be too impactful to gameplay.
At the end of the day, I think the way things are being done and the motive behind them is agreeably flawed. Most people here I think are willing to accept change under the premise that it makes the game we made as a community more engaging but b4nny’s goal isn’t within those interests. It is for a belief that utilizing Valve’s format will revitalize the game. Which as a lot of people have already state is a lot of ifs that put the existing community at risk of completely dying if said plan fails.
I think it is completely acceptable that the community feel threatened by this. Since these choices aren’t the consensus of the whole community but rather a sole individual whose income is dictated by the very same game. Of course, it would be within his interests to try and push anything possible that would increase that income, but it comes at a sacrifice of the existing community.
It is a very harsh pill to swallow considering how the road has been since that initial announcement of in-game MM coming have been met with at best “mixed” reception.
All these updates have honestly done very little to prove the credibility of competitive TF2 for several factors.
1. Meet your Match was a disaster
Meet your Match has been possibly one of the most influential updates in TF2’s history. Except majority of the is for mostly negative reasons. Match-making for casual was completely redone and for a lot of people has ruined the experience of TF2 as a whole. This created a lot of negative stigma towards the competitive community because this update was a long time coming and was meant to be “our” update, but it ended up impacting the rest of the community in a way they did not like.
2. Communication is non-existent
Regardless of your opinion on Quake Champions, after being involved with it over the second half of this year. There is no word that exists to properly express how angry Valve’s lack of communication makes me. A discord with the developers, monthly dev livestreams going over what’s happening and their roadmap for the upcoming months, blog posts and constant patches, a PTS to refine changes before they go live (remember when TF2 had that).
The best TF2 gets is “update will be cool beans.”
Don’t get me wrong, they’ve done alright in the past, but the issue is there is absolutely zero consistency with how this is managed. How does anyone expect the community to just accept Valve’s terms when we can’t even get a weekly, monthly, bi-monthly or even general update of how things are going and the flow.
Even just talking about concepts and ideas they have gives the community fuel for discussion which could be immensely valuable for them. I get Valve typically doesn’t like to steer or influence community discussion but holy fuck man.
3. The mess is still being cleaned up
It’s been over 3 years and closing in on 4 since we first got news that in-game MM was being worked on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UelPvdGskv4
Yet here we are all that time later with a competitive mode that barely represents how competitive is played. With dumb restrictions on config options, no class limits or item bans. A stick-det bug that still isn’t fixed and a viewership that has plummeted harshly.
No one plays the in-game matchmaking, but why?
Because it satisfies no one. As people have continuously stated and pointed out. Little jimmy isn’t going to suddenly change his mind and get into competitive just because he can play engineer with the rescue ranger and wrangler. Competitive isn’t and never will be within the casual interest because it is so jarringly different from casual play. This is where this same source of hatred for the MyM update comes from because it actively fucked with the aspect of the game they enjoyed.
On the other hand, competitive players see no reason to touch it when they have an existing community that already perfectly represents what they want to play and it’s going to take some good proof to change that mindset.
I could list more reasons, but the point is that despite the initial hype and interest that Valve’s support garnered. It has had a negative impact on the scene in general and I think it’s incredibly selfish to expect people to continue to accept their support upon that premise.
Thank you for listening to my autistic rant, I'm too lazy to fix grammar errors so I'm sorry in advance.
guys this isn't funny poor b4nny is in an abusive relationship with valve :(
guys this isn't funny poor b4nny is in an abusive relationship with valve :(
comp tf2 players that are still waiting on valve to finally do something cool is like when a new tf2 player gets scammed out of an unusual and is still waiting 5 years later for the funds to appear in their steam wallet
comp tf2 players that are still waiting on valve to finally do something cool is like when a new tf2 player gets scammed out of an unusual and is still waiting 5 years later for the funds to appear in their steam wallet
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