http://i.imgur.com/hmJm4v7.jpg

IT BEGINS

Cont.

As for your individual points, of course words have an effect beyond what people can intend them to mean. However, there is no way to anticipate this and people should not be expected to when someone else's reaction is certainly within the purview of their control. Secondly, using "rampant homosexual suicide" as a reason for why these words clearly have an impact is ridiculous. If that's the case we should stop any sort of insulting in the community because plenty of heterosexual kids are bullied into killing themselves and they might never be called anything other than "loser." Thirdly, sure words pass out of common vernacular, but trying to artificially force a word out of language when its meaning has already changed for a vast majority of people is silly. Finally, white knighting is obnoxious, people don't want to have others commenting on their choice of language when their intent is clearly being misinterpreted. If you pay attention to the news, there were plenty of pro-rights, liberal, politically correct people who told that woman at pycon who was offended by an overheard dick joke that she could have just gone somewhere else or that she had make dick jokes on her twitter earlier as well. What use is "being offended" if it apparently can change with someone's mood?

It's an open condemnation because the suggested methodology (that's already been pursued by a number of people) is to call people out when they use it and to have a hissy fit in stream chats when someone uses a word in a situation that they think couldn't possibly offend anyone. At the very least it's obnoxious, and it serves as a sort of disincentive by no one wanting to deal with whining children getting mad at words. You are fundamentally attached to the idea that faggot hurts people by default when the evidence in this thread clearly suggests that isn't the case and society as a whole throws it around without much care or association with homophobia.

My point about mesr is that there's still a small cadre of people who agree with him because he's mesr, and I can never be sure if people genuinely care about removing language like faggot/rape when they seem to only care about those words. I would once again bring up how people that are vocal opponents of such language are somehow fine with me making chromosome jokes or unironically believe that "nigga" is an acceptable non-offensive permutation of "nigger." I have and will continue to state that this is not a genuine movement until you apply equal attention to other words that are "potentially offensive." For what it's worth, having a day of silence in your primarily white upper middle class suburban school, probably means literally nothing to the thousands of gay high-schoolers that would be faced with actual violence if they were to be discovered in their rural southern town.

Your example is still wrong, just because people ARE OFFENDED doesn't mean anything, and it doesn't change someone else's perspective that the words they used aren't intended with any sort of connotation related to oppression of a minority. A lot of people grew up with faggot as a generic insult and never did and still don't associate it with homophobia. I refuse to accept that somehow faggot has a magic ability to offend people when plenty of people were repeatedly called something in school regardless of minority status and have managed to trivialize and get over it. Cunt means something a lot different to you than it does to the aussies the same way that a joke I make about down syndrome is evidently fine with the politically correct crowd but if I drop faggot suddenly I'm offensive.

Also "completely ignoring that people's reactions to words are not choices", do I even need to dignify this with a response? If that wasn't the case then language never would change at all and denotation would be the end all be all for all time of definition. If interpretation of responses is even possible this can't be true, and the case that was brought up previously was cases of trauma to which I DID respond by saying that learning to make jokes was actually a legitimate method of dealing with it and not to be condemned as "potentially offensive." If someone dying of cancer can make jokes about it, and a holocaust survivor can make jokes about that, then I'm sorry, but you're just being an intellectual child if you can't get over kids calling you names in school.

You can contend that "offense" is a legitimate reaction and form of expression but that doesn't make it special or more legitimate than anyone else's form of expression. If someone is offended by my language and brings it up with me, I'll explain to them that I don't intend it in anyway that oppresses them and if they can't accept that then they can take their business elsewhere. At the end of the day I'm in the same boat as mesr in that I'm going to keep saying it and if it hurts your feelings then I suggest you get them under control.

It's censorship when you are actively supporting the condemnation of people saying something that should not be offensive and clearly isn't offensive to a large portion of the gay competitive TF2 players here. Personally, I feel that something is lost when someone chooses to express anger in a way meant to offend no one and suddenly there are 4 white knights in a stream chat telling him not to say faggot because it's just not okay and might offend someone. I have 0 interest in trading anecdotal evidence with you because it isn't a part of proper debate and it devolves into people talking past each other, that being said on subjects like this since they center primarily on individual reaction it is nearly impossible to escape some anecdotal evidence. Clearly there is a case to be made for a significant number of people that supposedly could be offended by word choice not being offended at all and being cognizant that the usage of it is far and away from any homophobic connotation it may have once had. Regardless of any unconscious or involuntary reactions to language that may take place, it clearly is not deterministic on community growth or maintenance at any level.

I don't think your argument that someone choosing to be offended when they shouldn't be or when someone doesn't intend to offend them is censorship at all. Being offended is meaningless and subjective and potentially limitless as so many people in this thread have already observed/parodied. Realistically, there is no reason to ever actually insult anyone that plays this game and the community would probably be better for it right? However, we know that this is utopic and no one suggests that EVERYBODY BE NICE because it just isn't fun or interesting. It's an exaggeration, but it's still quite clear that faggot/rape/whatever isn't being used in a serious enough context or with genuine deprecating intent by anyone in this community in any circumstance that pertains to the community in such a way as that it is intended to offend or demean anyone.

Your example is also wrong because Person A can just as easily say faggot without expecting someone to be offended because the word is thrown around so often that it is meaningless. Additionally I would extend this to a number of other words that I think people gloss over that are potentially offensive: fat, bastard, idiot, dumb, jesus christ (religion has it's own encyclopedia of potentially offensive terms), retard, downy, autistic, weeaboo, virgin, and so many others but I think the point is made.

I chose to make an argument for not caring about what people say and keeping your own emotions in check, and while you commend mesr you do realize that he basically said, "I'm just going to keep on saying it, and if you get mad that's your problem."

EDIT: Munch already posted, I'd just like to echo that faulting someone for not taking up the sword for all of their BRETHREN BY OPPRESSION and thereby accusing them of trivializing someone else's reaction is just dumb.

Allowing people to say faggot and rape in a competitive setting is as simple as allowing people to say what they want and to insult each other as is. Australians call each other cunts constantly, and the assertion that we should make it openly condemned by the community to use language like faggot pretending that we're being respectful of people when everyone in this game insults each other in other ways is meaningless. I can tell someone that their brain is equivalent to a chromosome flooded bog and even Sal commends it, but seriously wagering that that if I were to have called him a faggot there would be negative consequences is stretching the boundaries of reason. Any attempt at censorship in the community takes something away from the players that was there before and exists in amplitudes far greater in similar hobbies, even table top gamers talk copious amounts of shit.

I'm not pro-usage of the words or anything, I'm not going to condemn someone for choosing not to use them, however I am against censoring what people can and can't say in the community.

Your point that language is a two way street is correct, but it also aids my point by maintaining that large portions of it are how it is interpreted. Being an adult means knowing that you are responsible for yourself and your emotions, and since there are clearly a large number of /actually/ gay competitive TF2 players that aren't offended by use of faggot then it is clearly possible to understand that meaning/intent is not limited by denotation.

Alright so my defenses are completely irrelevant because I'm now a junior in college because I haven't been in "the real world." Meanwhile, two mtfs, and multiple actual gay people have said that they don't find "faggot" offensive.

I'm sorry if it came across like I was strawmanning you or something, I just don't feel obligated to argue against every post in this thread when I feel I've already made any point I need to make. If you really want a response though I'll offer up some arguments.

I understand that tumblr snowflakes have hi-jacked the term for their own brand of attention-seeking, and I associate the term "triggering" with that brand of feeling-hurting. People who do legitimately have trauma though usually take it upon themselves to avoid situations that would in-fact cause flashbacks/painful memories/etc.; there are plenty of people that are gay and aren't offended by faggot (as evidenced by this thread) so those that remain I would argue are getting offended by people's word choice when there really is no ill will there. Also, a large part of psychotherapy for people that are suffering from trauma is to learn to marginalize and make fun of the issue.

As for it being an "I" issue, sure there is no real particular reason to use faggot/rape/nigger given that it has certain connotations for people. However, I will continue to contend that part of being an adult is learning to discern meaning from word choice, and "I'm offended" is more or less an admission that you can't control your own feelings and ask others to do it for you. I have no issue with avoiding the language on casts or where professionalism is expected, but taking it up as an issue with the community or unique to us is just wrong.

I would contend that there is something to lose by not allowing people to express themselves in this community no matter how crass they want to be, but I'm sure plenty of people would state that's just telling people to be as offensive as they want all the time.

Both he and my grandmother made jokes about it, they are also both dead now. I'm 20 in two weeks.

I haven't leveraged any sort of qualification of my own in this thread as for WHY I'M RIGHT outside of observing that I'm an english major as a means of pointing out a specific denotation. If you seriously think I'm leveraging my debate success or anything else as an argument from authority for why I think it's dumb to try and extirpate language from a competitive setting then you haven't been reading my posts.

In a different thread, brought up now for ???? reason

Can I just start clipping your quotes too and re-purposing them?

Because a large part of why people now feel this is necessary is I've heard it said repeatedly that the reason TF2 isn't larger or that streams don't get more viewers is because of the language we use. Fighting games are far larger and also far more abrasive.

Since when am I bragging about my ranking in congressional debate in this thread. It was brought up in a different thread by someone specifically questioning why I would be able to beat them in an economics debate.

Kudos to you for saying that national ranking is not particularly impressive in your state though.

No I'm just observing that you're trying to make a point with pretty much no basis, a logical fallacy if you will. If I really wanted to flex over personal merit you'd probably have a more solid argument.

A quote from a different thread in which my ethos was under question and something I used to further a point that is a personal observation. Kindly go fuck yourself ace.

I was also called a nazi in school for being german/blonde haired/blue eyed, things that I have no control over but aren't bothered by because I'm not a child.

Actual homophobes are definitely a laughable minority in our community or in EEEEEEESPORTS in general. Getting upset about it's usage in EEEEEESPORTS won't do anything to convince, prove wrong, or even phase actual homophobes and hate groups. "Faggot" is the recipient of such word inflation that to even get offended by it in the context most people use it in TF2 would require effort on someone's part. Most people when using it wouldn't ever associate it with actual homosexuality or homophobia so tying it historical oppression is superficial at best.

I throw around gestapo/nazi/hitler constantly as well and my grandparents on my mother's side were holocaust survivors. I refuse to accept that being "triggered" by the common usage of these words is anything other than a mark of immaturity and egoism by whoever is getting upset by it. As I said before, these people are adults and are capable of discerning language used from meaning intended.

There is a difference between name-calling and being ostracized from a group for something. I bet you pretty much no one in this community got through high school without being called a faggot, regardless of whether or not they were even gay.

If you are really being "triggered" and have PTSD about someone calling someone else a faggot in a completely non-derogatory manner that is entirely on you. If I were to walk around calling everybody a cunt, shitlord, permavirgin, scrub, or idiot somehow I doubt we would make a thread about how idiot actually effects people of lower intellect and "triggers" them.

Fuck, just the notion of "trigger" is so infantile and moronic it actually makes me angry.

There are two things that I'd like to address: the usage of crass language is not caused solely by "being on the internet." If you've ever been to an arcade, watched a fighting game stream, or been to a fighting game tournament yourself, you probably know that faggot/rape/nigger are thrown around probably 10x more often than they are in TF2. It's language that comes with the territory of competition and anyone that has so much as played pick-up basketball is probably also familiar with it. Keep it off streams/casts that are representing the community as a means of maintaining professionalism, but to try and make TF2 competition as a whole family-friendly and feelings-policed doesn't do much more than make the game more boring and mundane to a lot of players. Talking shit is fun, it creates texture and entertainment for the community, if you feel people are taking it too far then go ahead and take the issue up with them and I'm sure they'll be glad to respect your opinion.

Secondly, is that the community seems to be primarily focused on what I would consider "the words it's now cool to hate." The truth is that as much as anyone wants to get feelings-police-y about rape/faggot/whatever there are plenty of examples of words that are potentially offensive that these people gloss over. When is the last time you seriously did a double-take at someone calling someone fat? Or usage of the word bastard? Vocal proponents of changing language within this community glossed over REAL NIGGA GAMING when I brought it up because it's immediately understood that it's done for humor. Retroactively condemning it doesn't change the fact that you weren't initially offended by it because you understood its purpose and meaning immediately.

or as cody put it
3:09 PM - kaileÿ: we're already at a point where racism and homophobia are such a laughable minority that it's completely within reason to use them humorously
3:09 PM - kaileÿ: and if you think otherwise
3:09 PM - kaileÿ: congrats you can take up your new position as an SS officer with the feelings gestapo