I didn't watch too much of the tournament, but the games I did watch were fantastic so great job!

People need to realise TF2's golden LAN production age was fueled by passion, funding, competition and ever-growing experience. The first TF2 LAN events hosted by the same people who brought you some of the major i-events were riddled with problems and compared to the peak, they looked an absolute shambles.

The people involved were driven to improve and increase the quality each event. More people got involved, especially as things started to improve and once the feedback actually turned positive, the drive increase exponentially.

A large number of those people have since left the scene. TF2 has changed a lot and while some experience is handed down, a lot of it is simply lost. When the first generation of TF2 commentators hit their peak and then retired, a new batch came in. Most of these got quite a lot of abuse as they were simply not on the level of the previous generation, but they improved over time and some of them became some of the most loved commentators this game has ever known. The same goes with the production team. It doesn't happen overnight and the more events that are covered by any team, the better they will become. I still remember Beta and I casting our first ever LAN event. It was a CS tournament using a projector, HLTV and a karaoke microphone in a bar at the event (maybe i9?). Things have come a long way since then.

It's not easy to produce and manage a large event but a lot of people see individuals streaming flawlessly on twitch and believe it's as simple as that. There's so many more factors to take into account at LAN and even more when considering managing a larger team, delays, technical issues that you may have absolutely no control over etc...

Motivation is the key to producing a fantastic show yet so many are being counter-productive to their own interests by abusing those who did not deliver what they were looking for. Telling someone it's shit is not going to motivate them to make any improvements... it's going to make them tell you to go fuck yourself and do your own shit. Then they leave and you're back to a zero experience situation once more.

There needs to be positive encouragement to fuel people to improve. Understand that many people involved in this tournament were reasonably new to this environment and focus on what they actually did right. Chances are they are already very much aware of the mistakes and issues they had and are already looking to make sure they are improved upon for the next time round. Just be thankful you got a show at all, from people who gave up their time and effort for absolutely nothing in return. Constructive criticism is important but so is how you word that criticism. Don't demoralise people who are working hard for the community or those people will be driven out and that's the end of your broadcasted competitive scene, if not your entire competitive scene.

Keep up the good work lads... keep pushing for greater things!

Great job as always to everyone involved! It's great to meet all the new faces involved in the production team and competitive scene, as well as catch up with all the old ones. It's gotten to the point where I've literally grown up with a bunch of you (over 15 years ago was my first insomnia LAN (Team Fortress Classic @ i7) and some gamers from back then are still attending). We can spend a full year apart and can still come to these events and feel like a bunch of mates, ready to share a beer and a laugh.

Each time one of these events finish, people are already looking to the next one. There's still enough people in the scene with enough drive to keep these events going, the only barrier is funding. People still want to play. People still want to produce. People still want to support. The community funding makes this happen so anyone who contributed financially deserves as much praise as anyone else. I saw someone talk about donating to the production team but honestly, just support whatever the next event is as they need all the help they can get.

Thanks for letting Beta and I cast a couple of games! It's always nice to help out where we can and it's still just as much fun for us as it's ever been! We aren't always around these parts so often but if you want to leave us any feedback, requests or anything just hit us up on our twitter (arxandbeta) or something (we check it occasionally :P).

Everyone involved give yourselves a massive pat on the back. Top job as always!

Finally a massive shoutout to Dashner. While it's unfortunate you couldn't attend the event, your enthusiasm and drive for the best production possible has fueled nearly everyone involved to put on a show that lives up to your vision. The bar wouldn't be as high as it is without your continuous effort!

I dislike how a number of people make the assumption that all casual public players have some sort of hidden desire to be a competitive player. For most, this simply isn't the case.

There's loads of various gamers around the workplace or in friendship groups who I speak to and I can't say a single one of them has any desire to be scheduled to play computer games in a team, join leagues, enter tournaments or watch / get involved with eSports at all.

You have to remember that for the large majority of gamers... playing a computer game is exactly that; Playing a computer game. Nothing more. They may play a game with some friends for a laugh, they may play it solo, but they just want to play the game that is in front of them, in a chaotic, unorganized fashion and have fun doing so. TF2 is the ideal game for doing that.

Sure, there are some players who do make the transition from casually pubber to full time competitive gamer but it really isn't that many. It's far more likely that competitive gamers come to TF2 from playing a different game competitively which is either dead, dying or they are simply bored of it. The problem with TF2 is that these types of gamers have probably already tried and played TF2 for a little while within the last 8 years. It's not often that I think to myself... "I need a new game to play, I'll go check out the game titles released 8 years ago". It's more likely I'm looking at the new titles, looking at a developing eSports scene rather than trying to tag onto an existing one. If I'm competitive by nature and I want to be the best, it's far more difficult to try to become the best in a game where people have nearly a decade head start over me playing it. I'd look for a new game title and start at an even level.

It's not to say the game will not grow. It can certainly grow, but it's not going to pick up the kind of numbers needed to turn it into a major player in the eSports world, in the remaining lifetime of the game. A project like that would take years. One thing TF2 does have going for it though is it's art style. While realistic shooters can look really dated really quickly, TF2's cartoony style does not age half as fast as these realism shooters do.

The best thing that the TF2 community can hope for, is Valve to release a new Team Fortress game (TF3 for example). Similar gameplay, maybe a whole new set of classes that deviate from the traditional TF series. Updated engine / visuals. It can use the same TF2 finance model which is tried and tested, combined with the competitive aspects of CS:GO and TF2 matchmaking. Vanilla rules would be suitable for both competitive and public play, and class balancing would mean that class restrictions would never be required (not alienating public scene from competitive one). The passion of the existing TF2 community mitigates some of the risk of developing such a game as there will be a loyal fan base from the first day. The hype of a new, but familiar game title combined with the gameplay aspects of TF2, that's free to play, customisable and hilariously brilliant could easily be enough to become a top tier eSports title, and Valve would no doubt be very interested in investing in it from the first day.

It's not going to happen with TF2 though, but that doesn't mean the game isn't still worth sticking around for at its current, or slightly growing level. It's still a good, enjoyable game which is why people are still here.

You're right. Twitch is a huge promotional tool for businesses. But what you're asking Valve to do is throw money at sponsoring a tournament for one of their titles that was released nearly 9 years ago. If you're going to spend thousands of dollars promoting a product of yours, it doesn't make sense to promote something that old. This is almost like suggesting that Sony should invest money into PlayStation 3 advertising because they may sell more PS3 consoles. It'[s not identical but it's not too far off.

The reason why DotA 2 is getting the support it is getting is because of market research. Valve knew that in the current gaming climate (moba mania) DotA would thrive. Their business model is virtually tried and tested and there was little chance for failure, especially given the original DotA's importance in the genre. It's very easy to just think that these companies just cough up money for fun, but there are extensive decisions to be made. A company worth $3 billion doesn't simply just drop $1m on a tournament for shits and giggles. It wouldn't surprise me if any purchase or investment over $300k had to be signed off by the board, and this value could even be significantly lower.

I could write a thousand more reasons why it wouldn't be a great idea for them, but the simple way to put it, is that whatever money is invested in Team Fortress 2, could probably be invested elsewhere in the company to generate an even greater return, whether this be additional developers, promotional staff, online advertisements etc...

The thing is, this is not what a successful company does. You never just waste money. Risk on any investment should be calculated. What is the potential return from investing even a penny in a TF2 competition? In the early years of TF2, the competitive community banned all unlocks. Unlocks are how Valve make money from TF2. How would investing in the competitive game make any sense? The money they did invest went into casual game modes, like Mann vs Machine because it's far more beneficial to entertain the existing public community (who buy unlocks and stuff) than to potentially turn casual players into competitive ones (who aren't allowed to use unlocks and therefore will probably not buy as many).

TF2 does still make Valve _some_ money, and it's worth attempting to keep the player base for as cheaply as possible. Coding in a matchmaking system (which already exists for other Valve titles) in the devs spare time was probably quite a good investment. They aren't looking to gain huge numbers, just retain existing ones. Afterall, TF2 took a long time and a lot of resources to create. It makes sense to try and extend its life span for as long as possible.

It's not what anyone wants to hear, but it is the reality facing this game. It's not a dead game, but a title this old isn't 'going places', it's just surviving. A business would be stupid to invest in it. The best thing Valve could do is try to retain a loyal fan base as cheaply as possible, wait to see how OverWatch works out (it will have heavy Blizzard investment) and if it turns out to be slightly successful, they could work on a TF3 game to compete alongside it like DotA does with League of Legends.

The thing about production costs, is they ramp up really quickly for teeny tiny increases in quality. For example, to improve beyond the i55 levels of production would probably cost thousands, for very minor improvements. Basic production is very cheap and even a fair bit above basic production is also pretty cheap. But when you have lower levels of production, you lose the enthusiasm from a number of the people involved. I believe Dashner's enthusiasm comes from striving for a better production at every event. If you told him to scale it down, the challenge is gone, the enthusiasm is gone and he probably would soon look for a new challenge elsewhere in his life.

If you want funding for these events, people simply need to pitch it better. Give the community some options. Give sponsors some options. Half of the fight in any business is securing funding. The original hype of the 'first international TF2 event' has long departed. The whole of Europe and America were fully engaged in determining the best of the best. Even the follow up events had enough hype to secure some funding for teams and production. We had competing production organisations that pushed each other forward and with the way that the tournament results went, we got a proper trilogy out of it! But that time has gone. Now you need a new story, or a new business proposition / concept for new sponsors. There's always the narrative of 'TF2's LAST STAND'... SHOW THE WORLD WE WON'T GO DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT' type scenario. When I roam around this neck of the woods, all I hear is "Hey give us some money or we can't do what we did before". It's very uninspiring.

There's still passion in this community. I may have finally lost mine after 17 years of fortress gaming, but there's still a whole bunch of it left around here, including those who were recently inspired by the last bunch of international events. Sadly passion for production or competition simply isn't enough to keep this going, you need passion and effort to secure funding before anything else begins. Think like a business, not a bunch of gamers. You need to sell your service.

I don't come around these parts much anymore, but I felt I had something to say on this topic.

The coverage of a TF2 LAN is only as expensive as you make it. An event can be covered for little to no cost at all, but each time you raise the bar in coverage quality, the cost increases.

For example, how much does it cost to get two local boys with decent skill at casting to an event with their computers, headsets and a copy of the game? The answer is 'not very much'.

Do you want more commentators? This might cost more for tickets or accommodation.
Do you want production crew? Again, more transport costs and accommodation.
Higher quality commentators? Maybe these aren't local and you have to fly them into the event, another cost.
Higher quality production crew? Maybe these aren't local and you have to fly them into the event, another cost.
Do you want floor coverage such as articles, camera men, schedule updates? More people.
Do you need to rent or buy better equipment?

All of these expenses add up, but let it be clear that the vast majority are _optional_ expenses to improve the quality of the production.

When Beta and I first started commentating tournaments at LAN, we were sat in an event 'pub' with a hand held microphone and a projector linked up to someone spectating the game. We would simply commentate the event (no online streaming) to the people in the bar, talking about what we see. The event was local and we would camp in a tent. We paid for our own tickets to the event specifically to do this job because it was fun for us.

The technology is significantly better now and for a couple of willing volunteers to get to an event with their PCs and host an online stream is extremely easy.

I love the fact that the TF2 community invested in several tournaments, pushing the levels of production an competition to levels unseen by any other non-corporate-sponsored game in the history of eSports, but for a title like this, it simply isn't sustainable. Events do not need to be cancelled, but the community isn't going to be willing to keep fronting thousands of coins for round the world trips for entire production teams and it doesn't make sense from a commercial view for Valve to front these costs either. I would love that to be different but anyone who thinks that sort of investment from Valve is commercially viable is simply living in a dreamland. The answer is to scale down production levels to match the budget that is available.

The same thing can be said about the competing teams. If the teams aren't willing (or able) to fund their own transport and expenses, then they might request funding. This again is an optional extra. You're paying for an increase in competition at the event. It is still completely optional.

There will come a point when certain things aren't viable due to cost. This is how most of life works. Just gotta be smart about it and things can still happen.

To be honest, there are tonnes of different interactions between heroes in this game. There's concussions blasts, hooks, shields, grappling hooks, blinks, teleports, stealth, various munition jumping, wall riding etc... A double jump and splash damage is nothing by comparison.

All of these new movement capabilities and player interactions are going to take time to discover. Conc jumping in TFC turned out to be a bug and yet competitive TFC was shaped around it. Plasma jumping, and all those weird height fall + jump mechanics in quake were bugs that became a massive part of the game, to the point where competitive maps were being designed to enable these bugs to frequently exist.

Overwatch fresh out the box will be nowhere near the game it could potentially be in a few years time. People will look back in this early OverWatch footage and laugh at how people were using aspects of the game completely differently than they will be in the future. The only thing you can look at right now is the game's potential, and how much fun it is to play in its infancy. It seems quite fun and it has massive potential. Doesn't mean it will be a hit but it's certainly got a lot of the right boxes ticked.

So I've had a quick go at lunch. First impressions at that things feel a little cluttered and unorganised at first. The game feels reasonably slow, but then playing on a TF2 public server felt incredibly slow on release (even competitive was slow back then until people had mastered a number of movement techniques). Take a look back at the beta footage of TF2 and tell me this is a game that's going to get your heart pumping: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fPCYXKEkTc

I can see massive potential for movement capabilities (many more than TF2) and the potential for outplaying your opponents is huge. My biggest concern (like some others have suggested) is that the maps seem pretty dull and really limit gameplay potential. This might be only because I don't know my way around them properly yet, and I'm not sure of which ledges are advantageous at certain times in the game.

The main thing I'm absolutely loving is how competitive matches are in the same format as public matches. People do not realise how important this is for the game to succeed. Public players can instantly relate to professional players as they are playing the same game.

I'm looking forward to playing more tonight.

It's an interesting point. I don't think you need to see the same game, just _some_ familiarity. Looking at a game like League of Legends. Yes Dota was around, but do you think even a significant portion of the League of Legend's audience had an interest or understanding of how the original dota worked?

My opinion on what a game needs to become a successful eSports title is based on a few things. Firstly the public game needs to be almost the same as the competitive one. This is what gets your fans interested in how the professionals play as they are able to instantly transfer any professional ideas into their own game. Secondly, there can only be one or two of any type of game alive at any time. Thirdly the professional players need to be able to transfer their skills from a previous game into the new game. Last but not least, the game needs to be new and have hype that pulls an competitive scene and public players in at the same time.

Point 1 applies to League, Dota, CS, HotS, Starcraft II and Hearthstone. The public game is almost the same as the competitive one. Games this does not include are TF2, Battlefield and many more.

Point 2 applies to a number of games with the exception being the trio of League, Dota and HotS. This may explain why HotS is struggling because the moba market is over-saturated. Games like CS:GO have grown in popularity by the unification of the 'Realistic FPS shooter' genre. Gamers from Call of Duty and even Battlefield have moved over to CS:GO out of necessity.

Point 3. Original dota players and HoN players transferred to League and retained a large amount of their skill set. Original Dota, HoN and League players transferred to Dota 2. CoD players transferred to CS:GO. Starcraft and Warcraft 3 players transferred to Starcraft II. This meant there was instantly a professional scene and professional players didn't feel like their previous hours on a previous game were a complete waste.

Point 4: When a new game is released, professional players move to it in hope they can refine their skills early and become the best in that game (when maybe they aren't quite there in their current game). Public players jump on new games because they are new and shiny. Simultaneous hype on release between the two levels of play is a big part of what makes an eSports title.

Of course there's loads more factors. The game has to look and play well. It has to have the right systems to enable competitive play, but those 4 points are assuming that the other factors are in place to begin with.

I think Overwatch is a bit of a risk. It has enough familiarity with existing games (from different genres) on the market that people will feel quite at home while playing and watching it, however it is clearly a niche game with a market doesn't currently exist on the eSports stage and with TF2 (a non-eSport title) being its closest resemblance. The kind of player I see getting on with Overwatch are basically team FPS players who also have an interest in moba style gameplay. I'm one of those which is why the game appeals to me and I know of a fair few others in this community but I guess it isn't everyone which is fair enough. If you're a die hard FPS only fan with no interest in any other genre of game, then understandably Overwatch looks like a disaster on paper. At the same time, in a dream world, Overwatch could be the perfect unification of the FPS and Moba genres producing a game with an an absolute epic following. I don't think that would be the case, but who knows! :P.

I'm only suggesting that in my opinion, the community should be on-board at least until it is released. There's a chance it could be the game a large number of this community have been waiting for. It makes sense to get involved early, especially while it is being developed because you can get your voice heard and listened to. If Blizzard hear that the entire TF2 competitive community is interested, they might listen to our feedback in beta and we may end up with a game that is much more suited to our likings. If it doesn't work out... TF2 is still here, it's not like we have to cancel all the leagues and close down the forums.

If you don't get involved, maybe the game is a TF2 killer. Maybe the money attracts the top teams away from this game and it's too late for the TF2 voice to have any input. Maybe the public scene flock to OverWatch and Valve see no reason to continue to further develop the game after significant number drops. It becomes a game that's even further from the core TF2 values that we enjoy.

Anyway, it started as just my opinion and now it feels like I'm upsetting the whole TF2 scene, so I'll stop. I'm personally excited for the title as it feels like it will be something that I will really enjoy, and I'm excited that there's a strong chance a similar game style game may finally become a recognised eSports title with some real $$$ thrown at it. Maybe others don't feel the same and that is just fine! :).

The problem is, TF2 is a really old game now. It would be really stupid for Valve to throw money at an old game to save a handful of competitive TF2 players. You have to remember that Valve is a business and while the whole TF2 competitive community wants these big prize pools, weekly leagues and tournaments, we simply do not have the player-base in the competitive community to warrant it.

Everyone knows about TF2. It's a free game and so a tonne of people have played the game and enjoyed it. It's not like you're suddenly going to getting a massive influx of players just by adding some money to it. The only way that TF2 can grow is the way it has been growing for a while; through slow and steady community efforts and frequent game updates / content. The issue with this is that at the same time that new competitive players join the scene, old ones are leaving for new games, or to move on with their lives. This has kept the TF2 scene pretty constant in size. I mean... if you add all the players who have retired back into the scene, TF2 would be absolutely massive, but sadly that isn't the case.

Valve do not even need the competitive scene to continue with TF2. We are a small form of advertising for them with our tournaments and articles, so it is worth doing a few things for us (such as adding some things to the game and some balance changes), but the majority of their money comes through public players, traders and crafters. It's better for them to spend their resources to satisfy those people and sadly there are much more cost effective ways than to throw 5 figure sums at a 6vs6 prize pool.

Overwatch is new. Players will play it. It's worth throwing money at it at the start to get people to play the game and potentially become another eSports title for Blizzard. They will invest heavily in the game and if enough people jump on board, they will continue to invest in it. Valve simply will not be willing to plough in that same level of investment. The best thing that Valve could do at this point is to let Blizzard invest in OverWatch and then introduce a TF2 sequal that can steal the overwatch player base further down the line. All speculation of course as I'm not Valve, Blizzard, nor do I know how they run their businesses.

I did exactly the same. Tried to focus on FF but the community never grew. If FF was released 2 years earlier it may have been in business. This video still gives me goosebumps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0-6wdDyGLI

Matchmaking can definitely keep TF2 alive but I do feel like it will be just hanging on, not really grow substantially enough. Sorry that no one wants to hear that. Matchmaking will do a great job at keeping existing competitive players active, and getting public players into competitive. The problem is, how much of the public scene are going to jump onto Overwatch when it comes out? The game looks very much up their street.

I guess the community has to decide if they would rather stick with TF2, the game we all love and enjoy playing and keep running our community events (which is perfectly fine, just let's not be delusional), or move to something new that has massive eSports potential. Honestly, not everybody wants to be part of a large eSports scene. Part of TF2's charm is that it is very much community driven and not dictated by money and organisations with different self-interests. Game titles that are 7 years old simply do not become professional eSport titles. Sequals of those games can and games that players can bring skills from other games to also have a good chance.

Providing Overwatch has a competitive / matchmaking mode built in, you're automatically getting featured at events like Blizcon alongside the likes of Starcraft 2, Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm and World of Warcraft Arena. Those events are already bigger than anything we have for TF2 and ever will have. When the top level TF2 teams will have a huge competitive advantage over say, transferring CS:GO teams due to gameplay similarities, there's a good chance these players could be winning some seriously large tournaments if they swapped over on beta / launch. If even one invite / prem TF2 team moves over and starts winning some decent money, it won't be long before teams who could compete with that team also want a shot. More teams move away, the top end of the scene is gone, people move in to take up their place but it isn't the same etc... I don't need to continue as I'm sure you know where I'm going with this.

Having said all of that, Overwatch could be complete trash as a competitive game. It could have a clear public game focus with the competitive side of the game being absolutely horrible. May find that it just becomes the sort of game you go over to play with your mates for 10 minutes then head back to your TF2 scrims for the rest of the evening. This is Blizzard we are talking about though. When was the last time they released a game that didn't have almost immediate success? Maybe HotS isn't quite up to where they thought it would be, but it is still pretty big and it is competing against two of the most popular games currently in existence.

I dunno. I'm getting on board with the hype. If it turns out to be trash, TF2 will still be there to fall back to. It makes sense to get on board early and maybe even be able to influence the developers during beta to shape the game into something this community enjoys, at least a little bit.

It is a lot more moba-like, but actually... TF2 is a lot more moba like than TFC. Is it a bad thing?

I think TF2 is the superior game from what I've seen, but I've got this feeling that the timing and style of Overwatch is just perfect for TF2 style teams to really burst onto the eSports scene (somewhere TF2 never has and never will go). Let's face it, if you've played TF2 for the last 7 years, you're going to have a massive advantage in a game like this compared to a CS:GO team that migrates across. If the title is successful as an eSport, it's going to be TF2 teams who can lead the way.

I'm very much on board with Overwatch. I've been doing a lot of research into various aspects of the game in hope that Overwatch doesn't do what TF2 did on release (have everyone arguing about team size and having the competitive scene add a million rules which alienate the public scene from the competitive one). I'm pleased to say that doesn't seem the case.

Ideally I'd like to see the game played a lot like a first person moba. TF2 community would hate it, but I'd love to see the game played in teams of 5 vs 5 from the get go. This would put Overwatch in line with every other team-based eSports title that's currently having any success. 6 vs 6 may have a slightly better gameplay experience but I think it's kind of essential. A lot of big tournament events don't like putting an extra computer up on the stage, or have intricate camera setups which only cater for 1vs1 or 5vs5 games. The game is currently being played 6 vs 6 which I think is a mistake, but either way, the only thing I care about is that on release, people all play the game thing!

They are intending on constantly adding new heroes to this game and depending on the number that are available on release day, I'd love to see a hero limit (match-making enforced) of one in a 5v5 game (or one in each team to allow mirror matchups if there aren't enough on release). Pick ban phase like in mobas meaning people will not main a specific hero, but be able to fill a general area of the team (pick players, tanks, healers etc...). There are certain combinations of heroes that work really well together and it would be interesting to see the different strategies that can be developed using certain sets of heroes and then seeing their counters.

Overwatch could really be the door we've been waiting to open for a game to hit the eSports scene and retain some of the most appealing aspects that exist only in TF2 gameplay. I think people are going to flock to this game and with Blizzard's record of building decent matchmaking competitive platforms, it may be stupid to cling onto TF2's inevitable sink into the void, even if Overwatch doesn't play half as good as a TF2 match.

I played TFC for 8 years. I didn't like the idea of TF2. I saw a load of videos and hated that they took all the speed out of the game. Sadly I had to move to TF2 as TFC was dying and I still wanted to play a game that had some of the TFC characteristics. I feel like Overwatch is pretty much the same thing happening again. Imagine going from this to TF2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOyGGs9s2jA

Sure why not. =]