Just remove gullywash, it's awful in dm

It's almost like this has nothing to do with making the community any better and everything to do with clout-chasing.

it's a cruel universe, and among many other shit things this year, this one was also pretty shit, particularly on NYE, which is why I have been drinking...

https://imgur.com/a/ZVZTkEm

To be fair to you Yeehaw at least you're consistent. You've argued from the start that the plugin should be pushed through regardless of what the community thinks.

https://imgur.com/a/HZ9oa5o

Ok admittedly it was a cheap shot, but it's pretty rich of you to claim to be standing up for democratic ideals and yet ignoring the results of the only poll we've had.

As far as your criticism of my supermajority argument goes, there's certainly debate to be had on what level it should be set at. But as long as this poll is our dataset, those points are irrelevant. Yes, I am arguing that ideally we should have a supermajority, which you can contest till the cows come home - but you don't even have a simple majority so that really makes no odds.

I do agree with you however that there should be a clearly defined poll of the whole league on this issue, ideally with ETF2L setting out their methodology for what they are going to do with the results beforehand.

So you're against letting the minority win a vote? https://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png

warped logic:
https://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png

How is this on our own terms? This is on the terms of a small but fanatical subset of prem.

You haven't even got 50%.

I haven't got the energy or the time to write this out in the present context, so I'm posting what I wrote in the plugin testing discord in April when the idea was first put on the table. The important facts to remember are 1. This is by no means a trivial change. 2. Many people are not only against the change, but see the season as not worth playing if it is implemented. 3. People aren't going to immediately up and quit if they don't get a change they want - the same cannot be said for people who are forced to play with a change they vehemently oppose. But if you want to rip this community apart by pandering to a small but vocal minority, then be my guest.

Here is my original argument:

To widely implement any gameplay change, the end goal should be to have a yes/no vote on that specific change. Consent is extremely important in this – if everyone (e.g. in ETF2L) has to abide by it in future, it needs to be widely agreed to in order not to leave significant sections of the community angry and upset that they (as many will see it) are being forced to play a version of the game they do not like by a small group of influential prem players. Many democracies require a supermajority to enact a constitutional change that will affect everyone, in order not to allow a small, vocal majority to trample the rights and interests of a minority. The same principle should apply here. Indeed, since we are such a small community and cannot really afford to alienate a large section of our playerbase, I would argue that the supermajority requirement should be as high as 80%, ideally 90% - that means, unless we can get 4/5 people in ETF2L to agree to the change, it does not go ahead in the league. This seems to me to be the only way to move forward with such a large change without causing anger and resentment from those who do not want it, and potentially a mass exodus from the league and community.

I'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.

Presumably, there was a reason both why ETF2L held the poll and then published the results. What's not clear from the post is by what criteria the decision to implement the plugin was made. Was the poll merely advisory? Did the vote not meet a required threshold for "No" votes to not be implemented? Did the vote matter at all? We don't know.

https://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png

What's the point of having a vote if you're not going to abide by its outcome? Can someone from ETF2L even explain the logic behind the decision to implement the scout speed change based on this poll, which shows a majority of votes against the plugin?

What's important to remember is that there's nothing inherently good or bad about the 'stock' game. For instance, Valve set the max scattergun damage to 105 and the max rocket damage to 112. There's nothing inherently good or special about these values - there's no particular reason why the game would be significantly worse if rockets did only 111 damage at max, or scattergun did 106 (other than the effect of the tiny nerf/buff this would create). Just because this is the ‘stock’ level Valve set the game at, doesn’t mean it’s necessarily good or balanced.

The question you have to ask then is not "is IB better than stock?" (it is) but "is the current level of demo power (with IB) balanced?". If you think demo is generally overpowered, then it may make sense to favour nerfing the IB. If not, simply the fact that IB is better than stock doesn't necessarily mean it requires a nerf. Indeed, if you don’t think demo is overpowered currently, you could just as easily argue to increase the hitbox of stock to make the two comparable.

Personally, I think the meta is fine as it is. This year we’ve already had a push to plugin our way out of medics running at scout speed, largely based on the idea that scout, not demo, is too strong in the current meta. I think the current meta is fine; but if there is a problem, it's certainly not demo. In fact, good IB pipe aim is currently one of the most important counters to the massive power of a beam pocket scout.

Whether it’s a direct upgrade is irrelevant. We allow many direct upgrades (we’ve just unbanned the overdose!). They are a problem not when they make the class more powerful, but when they make it unfairly or unskilfully powerful. Even if it is somewhat easier to use than stock, the IB is hardly an unskilful weapon to use. And the medium-range direct pipes that it facilitates are a key part of why demo is needed in the current meta, to be the best counter to a heal hungry beam scout.

https://imgur.com/a/frWURUS