#76 Valve doesn't control ESEA or other 6s leagues, so this doesn't affect them at all. 6v6 can be preserved in its current form indefinitely so not sure where all this tinfoil hattery is coming from.

This is solely about Valve taking a step towards making TF2 a more competitive-friendly game. If they spend a few months or a year learning from the lobby system they implement and decide that hey, turns out 6v6 really is where they want to go, then they can do that.

#74 Right, it's all my impressions. Nothing was directly quoted or recorded. Nonetheless, my very strong impression from the TF team was that 6v6 in its current iteration was not something that most of their customers could ever get excited about. They want a system that really integrates into and synergizes with pub play.

#67 New meta.

Changes to the metagame are hugely important. Let's assume for a minute that Valve releases a new system in 6-12 months' time (they did not give any kind of timetable, this is just me speculating). All items in their current forms are allowed, and each team can pick 9 weapons to ban in a one-round blind pick. Duplicates are not re-picked.

So you get teams consistently banning the pomson, the cow mangler, the enforcer, and other items that nobody likes playing against. How long do you think it will take for the TF team to hone in on the exact banlists that UGC and other leagues have spent years crafting? Not long at all.

Maybe I didn't make my post clear. They don't "hate" the pinnacle of competitive play. They are time-constrained. If they could offer all the things to all the people, they would offer a 6v6 lobby system. But that's a pipe dream. They have to do what benefits the largest number of people, and they still want to see the competitive side grow. If they can grow both the normal pub experience and the competitive experience at the same time, that's the ultimate prize, so that's why they are more willing to support 9v9 than other modes.

Already did.

#44 We did. They do not believe every weapon is perfectly balanced, but they also don't have a good way of determining whether a weapon is truly balanced or not. That's a big part of the reason for this system - they need data.

#46 Uh, no, they don't plan on giving you a 6v6 in-game lobby system. They plan on giving you a 9v9 in-game lobby system. 6v6 is far too different from regular play for them to support as a first step.

2-part answer to this. Firstly, Robin insisted that one important thing missing from comp TF2 was variety. Players get very good at a specific skillset and then work the system to preserve their place with that skillset. This causes strategy and playstyles to stagnate, and it's antithetical to a game that releases constant updates.

Basically that means you practice two or three loadouts, and know more weapons. Adaptibility and on-the-fly thinking are rewarded more this way, which Robin hopes will cause more variety in games.

edit: unfucked my formatting

#27 If the Highlander in-game thing really takes off, I don't think the TF team are opposed to introducing other game-modes. But Highlander is where it'll start.

#23 Part of the reason for the system is that it gives Valve much better feedback on which weapons need rebalancing. Currently their only sources are SPUF, Reddit and other forum threads. Those are not useful data points. Having a pick/ban item system allows them to focus on balance early on.

#24 Sure, you may get trolls. Let's think of ways to mitigate that - who's doing the picking for each team? Exactly how would you set up such a lobby? That's what this community needs to test.

Reserving space for future updates.

Also - assume all items are allowed when running this pick/ban system. Enforcer, pomson, everything.

I promised some exciting news through twitter, so here it is.

eXtine and I had a long meeting with the TF team and Robin. They are happy to make a competitive lobby system in-game.

However, there are serious caveats and hurdles to overcome for us to get there. These fall into "philosophical" and "tactical" categories. Let's start with philosophy:

1) 6v6, and even most forms of highlander, are currently too different from regular pub play. This matters because the TF team is time-constrained and they simply can't spend time providing updates to a small subset of their customers. Robin's thoughts on clearing this hurdle boil down to "highlander with a pick/ban item system." More on this below.

2) The competitive format is currently too stagnant. Robin articulated this brilliantly and I'm not sure I'll do him justice, but here goes. Robin barely watches competitive TF2 anymore because nothing surprises him. There are no "sick new strats" for him to see, especially not at the pace of other games. He wants to see Vhalin's black box innovation happening once every 2-3 months. Highlander allows for this a bit more than the current ESEA setup, but it's difficult for Valve to get feedback on which items are truly overpowered vs. which ones are just hated or loved as the flavor of the month. Again, clearing this hurdle is the same: highlander with pick/ban data that Valve can see. If a weapon is banned in 95% of games, then the TF team can obviously see "oh nobody likes playing against that, now let's revisit it."

Now, the tactical hurdles:

1) Valve hasn't had good insight into what works best for competitive. I think that's solvable by doing some testing and experimentation, and that's where you come in.

2) Current reasoning and feedback for league weapon bans aren't always data-driven, and Valve has no insight into that. This will probably be solved when (if?) they roll out a Highlander Lobby Update. Data on what gets banned in the pick/ban system, as I said before, will make it abundandtly clear what is just not fun to play against.

Given all this, here's the path forward for putting lobbies into competitive TF2:

TESTING AND FEEDBACK.

By no later than this Saturday, everyone should try to play in a pick/ban PUG. The tactical questions, I leave to you. Should each team ban 5 weapons for the game? Should each team pick 9 non-stock weapons that become their only choices? Should defaults be in play for bans? Have a chat about this and run some PUGs with different rules. See what works, what's fun to play. Do so with the knowledge that you are essentially alpha-testing a competitive lobby system for TF2.

I'm hoping the PUG.NAHL and other IRC titans will be able to experiment with these systems, and I hope you all get the word out. 6v6 players may be somewhat disappointed with this update, but I'm going to make it very clear: highlander is the only way Valve will ever support competitive TF2. Let's make it happen.

Viewership?

I'm outta town!

That's what happens when I write notes, prepare and do multiple takes. :P

The issue is which group receives funding from Multiplay to put boots on the ground. Of course TFTV could run a stream, that's not the same thing as getting Lange and other TFTV staff there and covering some of their expenses.