Unless I missed a part, I think one big change you're missing is that the capture time got cut in half in an update right after s6 LAN. If I remember right, 1x on the point used to be 24 seconds, and then got changed to 12 seconds. Eveb with quite a few bodies on point, it still took a very long time for a team to capture prior to the update. Because of this, I think "old Viaduct" should be considered s5 to s6.

This changed entirely how Viaduct was played, because back on Pandemic / blight-fanom, our strategy was to keep TLR and I in house. Justin ran sniper and everyone played mostly passive, maybe except ww going in to annoy the other team. Justin did a fantastic job at constantly rotating sniper spots to pick people off, too. Once the other team started to throw a ton of bodies on the point to start the ridiculously slow cap, then TLR and I would walk out of house and uber onto the point. Our entire team would collapse on them while Justin continued to snipe people.

In s5, we tried to make this work and did an okay job of it, but we were still a new team. In s6, I had no doubt in my mind that we were the best team in the world at it. I think that's because Ruwin was also incredible at roaming around as scout and getting important kills, along with Orzo just being a ridiculously solid Demo. I always felt like we played the map to near perfection in s6.

In s7, not only did we have a lot of roster changes, but we couldn't play Viaduct the same anymore after the changes. Staying in house was no longer a good idea, because you wouldn't get to the point in time if they threw a bunch of bodies onto point. You *might* get there in time, but it would be 95% capped, which isn't really worth it at that point. It's probably better to let them cap it, fight, and if you die, you get quicker respawns. But ideally, you need to play closer to point to stop them from getting a bunch of cap time.

None of this was an issue prior to s7, because by the time you would exit house to uber onto point, the point might have been capped somewhere around 25-50%, which wasn't a big deal. Also, running 24/7 sniper wasn't nearly as good as it was before, and playing more aggressively (such as forward holding) tended to be more rewarding.

I'm confident that if LAN and money weren't involved, it would still be a case of no one giving a shit to put in enough practice.

And nowhere did I or any other LAN player imply that going to LAN was a terrible experience. LAN is a fantastic time, but any player who makes LAN is not obligated to play the game for 40 hours a week. I also don't understand why you are so aggressive and edgy about this, but alright.

Basically this.

Froyo have stuck together for a while with the same group of core players (who are all incredibly skilled). If mix^ continued to play and eLevate had the same roster as last season, either of those teams could unquestionably be a serious threat to froyo. Unfortunately, mix^ died and eLevate had roster changes along with position changes, so they have a lot of readjusting to do. Froyo are good, and it shows. Those gorgeous gamers are talented, but the right amount of work ethic can take them out.

Will teams want to put forth the work? Probably not. Ash will be too busy practicing Melee so he can beat clockwork in Dallas. :D

I think you're missing his point.

For a very long time, a lot of Invite was mostly about who practiced the most. If you didn't practice, you would likely lose to a team worse than you, just because they put in more hours. It was a chore at times, but you're right, getting to go and hang out with everyone is a lot of fun. I still go to most of the ESEA LANs just to hang out.

Could one of the other three LAN teams beat froyo at this upcoming LAN? Sure, I think it could be a possibility.

Will it happen? I really doubt it, just because the amount of hours needed to catch up to them to maybe beat them can be daunting. I think it's got to a point where there's a lack of motivation. Froyo are established now. I think most teams aren't really willing to care enough to put in the large amount of effort to be on the same level as them. The LAN teams will obvious start practicing closer to LAN, but it's gonna be one hell of a task to give froyo a run for their money this upcoming LAN. There's not enough motivation or incentive to get on their level.

It sucks, but I knew people would feel this way once mix^ died, rando left eLevate, and then Invite decided to not really scrim anymore (at least not nearly as much as Invite used to scrim).

And all of this is leading back to the original point at hand. You could practice out of your mind and put in tons of hours with your team, and you might beat froyo. Hell, you still might get 3rd or 4th. Tagg was saying that it can suck to practice so much just to put on a good show, only to potentially come out negative after the LAN is over.

Also, to address the topic of this thread, I don't necessarily think that froyo will be the death of TF2. However, I think froyo will always be as dominant as they are right now until the end of TF2. Again, just because there's really no motivation or incentive to put in that much work anymore.

You're a fucking great person. deathconsciousness is incredible and is probably somewhere in my top five.

http://innocentwords.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Cursive-uglyorgan.jpg

Took me a bit to think about, but definitely The Ugly Organ.

Nine Inch Nails because they always put on an incredible show, especially with visuals. Caught Trent's tambourine at one! :D

Death Cab for Cutie at the Tower Theater. I'm sure they are great live at any other location, but it was so amazing to experience it at the Tower Theater.

Foo Fighters were pretty damn good when I saw them like seven years ago.

Rob Zombie is actually fucking incredible live. It was an Ozzy Osbourne concert with Rob Zombie opening up for him. I like both of them an okay amount but I'm not crazy about either of them. But holy shit, I remember being totally floored during the Rob Zombie set. There was a lot of stuff happening on the stage (props, girls, other stuff), the set list was perfect, John 5 did a few solos, and it was just fantastic.

Hm, I just realized that I saw Mae three times live. Nothing ridiculously incredible but I would say they are pretty good live.

I feel like regardless of any kind of changes you make, Granary will still suffer from a lot of the same problems it has. The biggest one for me is that it's the most unforgiving map to lose mid on. I don't think you can possibly do anything about that without it being considered a totally different map at that point. You have to be so committed to mid (basically not stuck in the back-left corner or garage/ramp), as you will typically lose to a team who becomes committed if you're not.

If your team isn't totally committed (this typically includes the medic), it's easier to exit the mid and hold yard, but it's much harder to win the mid when you're passively stuck in a corner where all of you take the same damage.

If your team is totally committed, it's much more difficult to exit if things aren't going great (especially the medic, who has to make quite a long run out of mid and out of yard). Basically, it's common to have all six of your teammates die if you lose mid. You might have one or two get out if they are quick about it. Perhaps you might have a 3-5 get out if a very early call is made and everyone is in a decent exit position. Still, it sucks.

Which yeah, if your team is totally committed on any map, it'll be hard for people to get out, but Granary is a map where you cannot sit all the way back and do nothing. You'll get spammed to death and eventually lose to the other team collapsing on you. It doesn't play out that way 100% of the time, but it happens much more on Granary than any other map. The rest of Granary is alright but not that great.

I don't think Granary is a horrible map, but I would say it's the worst in the rotation.

Every team gets money, even if they didn't make it out of their group.

I really do think it's just because NiP were the underdogs. People wanted to see a close set and to take down the team that has been the strongest for the past year. NiP also got cheered against a long time ago when they were dominant.

fnatic should take this easy.

I think KeyD might make things a little interesting vs VP, but VP will be the better team plus home field advantage. The Brazilians can aim well, though. I was very impressed.

TSM vs NiP is one of my favorite matches to bet on for at least a year now. I think this set can easily go to 3 maps, and if anything, I think the current odds (80/20 for NiP) are too good not to place a small bet on TSM. NiP will probably take it, but TSM have always been a top 4 threat at majors. Personally, I'm gonna bet small on TSM or skip.

Holy shit, CLG are missing all of their shots. This would be so much closer otherwise.

ptr also 0-10.

I just bet $20 ($40 reward) on KeyD.

KeyD look strong, and while I obviously want CLG to win/advance, I think KeyD will take it. It's honestly win-win for me, regardless of the victor.

rofl, both american teams won the exact same way on nuke.

True, but at the same time, Nuke isn't THAT CT-sided. Getting a minimum of 4 rounds is acceptable but not great, and anything less is pretty much a loss. Yeah, CLG had a pretty awful T side, but HR? That was atrocious on their part.

Seeing games like this where both teams perform extremely awful on T side aren't horribly uncommon (or perhaps both teams play ridiculously solid on CT), but still. HR have to feel like shit after that one.

I can't help but feel like most of the top teams playing against the bottom teams are honestly saving strats and cheeky plays for playoffs. Both teams looked good, though.

I hope at least one American team will make it into playoffs, but I'm pretty sure both will finish 3rd in their groups. CLG vs HR is a coin toss to me, so CLG *might* make it out.

Hiko, come back. :(

I'm quite alright with this.