I can't really speak for anything else in this thread, but I do think I can offer input on this point specifically. I think that anyone who has a firm grasp of the competitive format can coach a newbie mix, and I think others have said this as well.

That said, I think the reason that there is a big interest in getting players from the top levels of the game to show up for these events is because those players are known and recognized. They are the names from casts and youtube videos that sparked the interest of the newbies who are coming out to the newbie mixes.

It would be like having a pro football player show up at a clinic for high school players. The chance to learn from someone you both admire and try to emulate can do an incredible amount of work towards getting new players invested in improving on their own. That idea that they got a chance to play with what they consider to be greatness can't have a value placed on it.

I can remember pubbing against players like polk, milo, and others. Or having scrims with or against people like ruwin, indust, memphis von, you, and plenty of others. Names that I remember watching in matches and casts that made me want to pursue competitive play. Players who's styles I have worked to emulate and used to guide my own improvement.

I doubt any of those players even remember me from the servers/games, but those experiences, more than anything else, fuel a new players drive to improve and grow on their own.

Pro and semi-pro players don't have to be a part of every mix, and I completely agree that teaching the same things again and again can be frustrating, and tiring. So don't show up to all of them. But show up to some, and more importantly, let the people who are running the mixes know when you are going to show up so they can advertise that some.

You would be surprised how many new players you will inspire to become long term members of this community without ever knowing it just by giving them a chance to play, even for just a bit, with you.

And if you are looking for some kind of return, those players are likely going to be the ones who follow you on twitch, and send in donations and things like that. You may not feel like your presence has a lasting impact, but I can promise you, that for every aspiring TF2 player, seeing names like Mr Slin, and any other player who is active in Invite, on Twitch or Youtube, or just in the community in general, it is an experience they are not going to forget.

Honestly, I think it is a matter of personal commitment and time. Obviously adding people, complimenting their skill, and helping them through that initial process of finding a team and stuff like that is going to yield far better results than just wearing the tag and spamming chat with it.

But not everyone has the time or interest to take the personal approach with everyone they meet, and that is fine. If they wear the tag and carry themselves with a bit of dignity (and skill) then people who see the tag enough, worn by people who all seem like decent folks and all obviously play the game well, then they will get interested, whether they add you to ask about it or not. And that is equally helpful.

The biggest thing that I can say is that people should try to avoid turning the playcomp.tf tag/bind into a new way to insult pub players. All that does is add credence to this idea that it is not a legitimate link and reinforces the idea that the competitive community is not worth someone's time.

I think the point that started this thread has been lost a bit (though recent posts are bringing it back into focus). The idea of the playcomp.tf tag, and reaching out and being nice to potential new players and nothing to do with whether shit talking is a part of any competitive sport or e-sport, and everything to do with wanting to share your own love for a game with other people.

You don't have to shit rainbows and love everyone to be a decent human being and show interest and support/encouragement for someone who wants to get more involved in tf2.

As for the community being toxic... every community is toxic if you look in the right places, that is called human nature. It isn't right, and it shouldn't be encouraged or tolerated, but it also isn't going to go away. That said, right now we don't seem to draw a line between shit talking and personal attacks. There is a difference, one is a part of any competition (whether you like it or not) and one has no place in any serious community or competition and should be punished when it happens.

Death Threats, adding someone to continue harrassing them, following them onto the forums, or to other places of community interaction and ridiculing them. That isn't shit talk, it happens, and it should not be tolerated.

I did though, cause I wanted to be cool and have my very own thread repeating the same thing over and over again. Pls just love me for who I am.

But actually, I was tried of reading the circular logic of people making a point, people not understanding the intent of the point, and so on. So I thought I'd make a thread, so I wouldn't feel compelled by my ocd to respond in each of the other hundred threads. Though I am glad to see people agree that the discussion is growing repetitive.

Our problem is that the point gets lost in the discussion. So 100 something pages of discussion later, people are still trying to make the same point. So simple, or as simple as I can make it:

You can be an ass, goof off, shit talk, and otherwise enjoy the game that you play however you want to. Just don't be 100% a dick.

That's it. That is all anyone needs to do. If you want to do more, great, do more. But if you don't want to do more, for whatever reason (and you don't need to tell everyone your reason), then don't. Just don't be 100% a dick.

Additional things that can be done with little effort:
-wear the playcomp.tf tag (you don't even have to talk to people, just wear it)
-talk to people about playing comp tf2

And with slightly more effort (but still not much):
-mentor a new player/team
-when someone asks a question, answer them

1) not saying people have to pub, I completely understand why top players don't. Just saying that if you do, don't be an ass. And maybe talk some about comp play to people. See if there is an interest. Be proud of the league and community you are a part of and share that with people without being a douche.

2) I said before that most of the people that are the worst offenders are playing in iron/steel or just lobbies. They are usually 12 and think they are big shit. Or, more often, they thought they were big shit and just got stomped by much better players, so they head to a valve server to feel good about themselves by making other people feel bad.

3) I am not suggesting we baby anyone. Or that we go out of our way to convert someone who won't play because some mean people on the internet said a mean thing. You are right, those people probably aren't a good fit for a competitive format, though they may enjoy watching... and we need viewers as much as we need players).

What I am saying is that we should make the effort to let people see the fun, worthwhile side of the competitive community. Not because ALL of them will suddenly see the light and play comp, but because some of them might.

If you seriously don't think it is worthwhile to have new players play this game... then can I ask why you play this game. I'd think anyone who enjoys TF2 enough to play it competitively, even knowing that it will never make them rich, would love the idea of new players entering the scene. And it is stupidly simple to not be an ass to literally everyone you meet, and mention that comp tf2 is a thing every once in a while.

So what is your suggestion: don't try, accept that most of our potential player/viewer base hates us for reasons that aren't even valid, but still perpetuated by second hand experiences?

If you think we want to change this perception overnight then yes, we are being unrealistic. But I'd rather show a handful of people that I meet in pubs that we aren't all dicks, than give up because it will be hard, and some of them won't listen.

If you are nice, and you promote the scene IT DOESN'T MATTER IF MOST PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN OR CARE. We don't have to convert everyone, or anyone in particular. We just have to show that there is more to us than the shitheads that perpetuate the idea that we are toxic. And if 1 in 100 people who sees your tag, or your bind, joins a team, than that effort was successful.

If people resist, complain, or even insult you for promoting comp tf2 then grow a thicker skin.

Can we stop insulting pub players for not being able to handle shit talk when we seem to get discouraged because it might be hard, or take a while, or come with some negative reactions?

Agreed. But this is less about the reality of our community, and more about the perception of it from the outside.

1) We aren't toxic by most standards.
2) There are many examples of people outside of the scene believing, and commenting publicly about how toxic we are.

Those shouldn't add up, but they are true regardless. They are true because:

1) Most of the community doesn't play in pubs often
2) Many of those who do, play in pubs specifically to pub stomp (ie they are the ones who create this idea of a toxic comp community)
2a) Of those, most are very vocal with spam binds and shit talk (making it a very obvious and easy to remember experience)
3) The rest who play in pubs just go there to play, they don't talk about competitive much. And for the most part just appear to be chill players who are really good at the game (none of that suggests to the uninitiated that they are part of a comp scene, or that such a scene exists)

I think some of us have been a bit over zealous in promoting this idea of being polite as though it is something that most of us do not do. That isn't the case at all. Most of the people I've met in the community are happy to help new players (regardless of how much shit talk they use with their peers). We just need to stop letting the vocal few color the entire impression of our community to outside players.

As for people needing a thick skin. Not wanting to even look into a community that appears to be toxic doesn't mean that they don't have a thick skin, it just means that they don't have a compelling reason to subject themselves to shit heads for something they know nothing about. Give them a reason to give it a look and then you'll see if they have a thick skin or not.

Again, I agree with you. I think the point that most of the people here are trying to make (and that I doubt anyone disagrees with) is that it doesn't hurt to promote comp while not being a dick.

Point in case, I said before that I played in pubs prior to comp and encountered a lot of shit head kids who just pub stomped and spammed binds. I found out later that I also played on pubs frequented by players from much higher levels of competitive play. I never knew this about them until after I had joined the scene. But many of them contributed to my desire to get better at the game because they not only embodied a much higher level of play (having polk or milo or others like that on your team in a pub pretty much assured victory), but they also weren't dicks about it. I wanted to play as well as they did because they were good and they didn't make me hate playing with or against them because of that. Often I actually tried to always be on the other team, just to see if I could match them, or kill them in a 1v1 (didn't happen often, but sometimes it did, and that was my first big step towards really looking for more serious levels of play).

If any one of them had been wearing something like the playcomp.tf tag, I would have found the competitive scene so much sooner in my tf2 career.

My point is that, no one is saying that this community is as bad as so many people outside of it seem to think. What we are saying is that it certainly won't hurt for the far larger and far more positive and welcoming side of the community to be a bit more obvious. It is easy to spot the shithead iron/steel player who likes pub stomping because the chat is absolutely full of their binds (I once got vote kicked from a server I'd only just joined because I was a part of the LFT clan, an apparently known group of trolls and dicks).

People see the shitheads because the rest of us don't talk about comp all that much, for whatever reason, when we play pubs. And because they only see the shitheads they assume that the rest of us are like that as well.

See the edit to my above post. We don't need to be angels, we don't need to hold hands or baby new players into their first team. But we can be people, and more importantly we can not be dicks. Don't ridicule or !rep a lobby medic who is actively listening and trying to learn. Don't spend all your time in pubs spawn camping and telling people they are bad and should uninstall the game. And if someone asks you a question, give them an answer.

This isn't the hurt feelings police, if you think that this community is welcoming and wonderful then you probably don't have a change a thing about what you are doing and how you are acting. Just drop the playcomp.tf tag in your name and call it a day.

You aren't wrong in most of this, but I disagree in the idea that it is futile. I think it really depends on what you are expecting to achieve, and what timeline you are using to judge that success or failure.

If you expect that by putting playcomp.tf in your name, and going "door to door" to get all the active communities on board with your idea is going to result in an instant influx of new players than you are wrong, and you are going to kill yourself trying to make that happen. But wearing the tag, talking to new players, reaching out to pub stars and people who obviously have an interest in the team work aspect of the game... that will never be futile.

As for those who are going to stick around and grow the community. We can't judge that, and trying to hand pick who we think is best suited to the scene is the wrong approach. If you get a pubber to look at this site, or UGC, or even just playcomp.tf, then you have done your job. If you also take a few minutes to answer some of their initial questions, and help point them to the best place to get started you've helped to promote the sense of community that we all know and love.

If you let new players add you, and offer to give them tips on whatever class they are most interested in, then you have likely added a long term member to our community because you've made them feel like they belong even before they find their first team.

There is no switch to make everything perfect and get tf2 to be big. But if we are content with the status quo, with business as usual, then this is all we will ever be. That isn't to say that trying will yield the perfect results, or that the process will be quick. There is no certainty in any of this, save that if we do not try to affect change ourselves change is never going to happen.

I for one think this game can be more than it is right now, that doesn't mean I expect wearing the playcomp.tf tag, or talking to a handful of pubbers about the comp scene, is going to be the magic pill. But every player I get to join an Iron team in UGC is a player we didn't have before. And maybe one of them ends up being the next Lange. No one is ever going to convince me that that is a futile effort.

We don't need to change it, that isn't the point here. We just need to be aware that it happens, and will continue to happen, and make sure that we represent a better side of our community. We don't need every person who plays tf2 to love us. But we do need to give some of them a reason to give us a shot. And that happens by presenting a better sort of first impression as often as we can.

This shouldn't be something new or revolutionary. Just don't be a dick. If you see someone on a pub you frequent who is consistently at the top of the score board ask them if they know about 6s or HL. If they don't, tell them about it, if they do, talk about it. And if other people on the forums ask questions, answer them.

Seriously, all we need to do is stop going around pretending that we are somehow better than everyone else who plays this game simply because we are on a team and compete in a league. Sure we know more about the game, but we started in exactly the same place they did, and someone pointed us towards the comp scene just like we can point them to it.

We don't need to be angels. We just need to not be dicks.

Prior to getting into comp myself I can say that a lot of the competitive players that I encountered in pubs were there to play troll loadouts, spam binds, and assert their own dominance over the lower class of tf2 player known as the pubber. I have since learned that a majority of these players are from the lowest levels of comp play, and tend to be shithead kids who get in mumble with a few friends and think it is great fun to demo+medic combos in pubs and spawn camp.

They aren't the majority of our community, there really aren't enough of them to be counted as a proper minority even either, but the impression they leave is 100x more impactful than a nice competitive player who acts to encourage pubbers.

The unfortunate truth is that we remember bad experiences far more vividly than good experiences.

As good an idea as any that has been posted thus far. I don't pretend to know how we go about doing it, but the best way to spread the good word about competitive TF2 is to make use of the foot work that has already been done by the many user communities that exist outside of the competitive scene. Reaching out to player hubs like reddit, or communities like skial, lotus, and others, has the potential to reach far more pub players than simply running the playcomp.tf tag in our names (not saying we stop running the tag, I think that everyone who plays comp should really start using it, just that we can increase awareness in other ways as well).

That said, a lot of these communities have a poor opinion of the competitive scene because we have largely been insular thus far. If we really want their active support we need to find ways to make it appealing for them to donate their time and resources. These communities want to grow and attract new members as well. It may be worthwhile to try to set up some community centered events. Things where competitive players go out to the various communities and help to host smaller tournaments and things like that. Stuff that we do for the communities in return for their support and advertizing within their player base.

EDIT: As for being polite to get rid of the toxic stigma. It really is that simple. Don't rage at your team. Teach, evangelize. compliment people on things that they are doing right, even unintentionally, and suggest that pubbers check out the various competitive leagues. You can't imagine how much of a compliment it can be for a pubber to hear that someone who plays competitive thinks that they are good enough to try out for a team. And honestly, anyone who has dedicated 100 hours or more to this game is good enough to try out for UGC Iron 6s or HL.

Basically, be the person who got you into comp for someone else.

THIS. The number of comments I have read in all of these threads that have given any number of reasons why we shouldn't try to do something. Or suggesting that something has been tried before, so doing it again is pointless. Even in this thread, listing off all the ways in which the 2 scenes are too different from any of the lessons from one to apply to the other.

JUST STOP. Seriously, stop. We are small because we seem to only want to be small. If we wanted to be big we wouldn't list off all the reasons why we can't be big. We'd have a goal, and we would work at that goal in any and every way that we could think of. Regardless of how effective those methods were.

Sure, if you have a really good idea, that is going to be more effective than previous ideas. Promote it, make it known, get people to jump on board with it. But if you are just going to shoot down someone's suggestion without offering some, better, alternative, than please, just stop. You don't need to make that post to feel important, or in the know. (and even if you are suggesting an alternative, potentially better, solution you still don't need to shoot down any other suggestions. People will gravitate towards the community efforts that are making the most progress, doing the most good. And if they want to support your idea as well as some other, less effective idea, then let them)

I don't think that either league should feel the need to compete. UGC, at least in my mind, should have 2 priorities: Highlander, and being an entry level league for all competitive formats. UGC 6s has long been neglected, and is widely considered a joke, even by its current player base. I think that that presents a big opportunity to make some serious changes to it.

The reason I suggest players from ESEA donating time to rebuilding it as a launch pad for ESEA Open, is because the unavoidable truth is that ESEA, at least for 6s, is the more prestigious league. With LAN, prize pools, and league fees people are going to take this league more seriously. Right now most of the teams in UGC 6s equate a successful season in silver to a passable season in low open (not saying that the skill levels are the same, just that most serious teams don't see a need to play any higher than ugc silver before making the jump to ESEA. And for the most part iron, steel, and silver do their jobs (despite numerous sandbag teams) of getting people ready for ESEA.

UGC isn't going to lack for players, their goal is a constant influx of new players, as well as retaining players in Highlander. I don't think that the league would have any problems acting as a stepping stone into ESEA if ESEA players were seen putting time and effort back into UGC as a result.

I don't think it is worth while to make a new league because then we further divide our player base. Some people would leave UGC, others would not. I think if both leagues can swallow their pride, accept that they each serve a vital role for our community, and try to work together, we would see substantial growth in both leagues.