EnzoDBAny Jewish person who thinks they have the right to pledge allegiance, become nationalized to a part of the world they have never been to and have no roots in, and move to said region that native people have been forced out of, is part of the problem. I'm not saying Jewish people have no right to live in the region, as that area has been home to people of all faiths, but every foreign settler is straight up playing a role in the genocide.
A few fallacies in your point. First and foremost, Jews have a deep and rich history in the land. That is undeniable. I don't know why a Jew immigrating to the land (past, present, or future) has to have any association with forcing Palestinians out of their home. There should be a coexistence regardless of whether the governing body has a nationality behind it or not. I understand there are certain instances that which this has happened, and individuals must be held accountable for these actions, but to deny either group the right to self-determination is flat-out wrong, and that goes for all Jews too. I think people tend to discredit the expansiveness of the Jewish diaspora. It is of no fault because of the Palestinians of course, but many Jews who were expelled from their ancestral homeland went to Iraq, Yemen, Iran, Lebanon, etc, only to be kicked out of those homes again down the road on numerous occasions (most recently in 1948). I doubt that the descendants of those people, who make up at least 50% of the Jewish demographic in Israel are going to accept that they have to move again, especially because I couldn't point toward a direction where they would go. There is certainly no other home for them in the region, and I wouldn't argue many places in Europe are quite attractive to them.
Wild_RumpusatidereI guess our definitions of "liberal Zionism" are different. However, I don't think that is important to find out. If by Israel you mean Netanyahu and the Likud party (especially since he's retaken power), then I can't say you are far off. But if this is what you think the majority of Israelis think, it's just my opinion that that is a naïve conclusion to come to.
Here is a group of public opinion polls in israel: https://en.idi.org.il/articles/51198 (this is an israeli organization so you could argue that they may overrepresent the popularity of the state's actions)
What i want to point out is that yes, netanyahu is unpopular among the israeli "left". But as this poll shows a main split between left and right is that the right wants to wait until the so-called war is over to figure out blame fot the "failure of october 7th" whereas the "left" doesnt (or rather still dows but just kinda less so".
Combined with the fact that an insane 80 PERCENT of the israeli "left" are more trusting of the IDF than netanyahu this clearly paints the grim picture that the Israeli "left" doesnt have a problem with the ongoing genocide, otherwise they would trust the idk carrying it out, but instead just dont like that netanyahu let oct 7 happen
so yes, liberal zionists are pretty much exactly like ive described. people who are truly anti-zionist tend to leave israel if able
atidere I've got to ask, do you believe that Jews around the world have a right to live there too if they choose to do so? Again, appreciate the responses.
Jews lived in Palestine before zionism was invented and im sure they will live in Palestine after it is defeated. If you're asking if every Israeli citizen can rest assured that they get to keep going on as usual just under a palestinian state then the answer is no, settlers still need to be ousted from homes they dont own, war criminals and genociders still need to stand trial.
A few things here. First, the sample size of that study is quite low. I'm not sure you can conclusively say that this does/doesn't reflect the general opinion of the Israeli left. I mean ~600 Israelis were questioned and ~150 Arab Israeli were questioned. The third point I don't really get regarding the IDF. I mean that kind of makes sense does it not? The people who grew up in your communities and who you trained with are probably going to be the most you trust. It is again, in my opinion, quite naïve to think everyone in the IDF agrees with the likes of Netanyahu or Itamar Ben Gvir etc.
I will say, that it never ceases to amaze me that people feel comfortable criticizing the Israeli government and its systems/policies, and with the same comfort level, they will then propose a solution that involves whatever they are accusing of the Israeli government of committing. It really is a phenomenon that I may never come to understand.
To answer one of your earlier questions in this thread Enzo, to how could people derail such a serious and dire topic so quickly is quite simple. Firstly, I've got to say, your opinions about this topic reek of xenophobia and you have a tendency to play into a few of the common antisemitic tropes. Not to say I am the one who gets to decide how to judge your character, just an observation from your posts in this thread. Second, like someone correctly identified, Hitler joined the conversation by post #4. Shit was doomed as soon as he laid his eyes on this thread. I think most importantly though, there is little mention of Hamas's accountability and the one post of the October 7th denial from you Enzo (although the conversation certainly derailed way before that). But that is absolutely an inhumane thought.