I do think that it's true that the 6v6 community sometimes doesn't carry itself the best way, and that there aren't enough channels for new players to enter. However, I think there's a bigger reason why 6s hasn't seen a huge influx of new teams- the highlander scene. Allow me to explain.

A giant percentage of the top 6s players will tell you that they started on some public server, and joined 6s when their community put together a team for a free league like cevo or twl. Yes, 6s is more restrictive when it comes from making the leap from pubs to competitive- I mean, only 4/9 of your community would seem eligible really. However, whether it was because they put util players on scout and had them learn it or because they still had enough of those cookie cutter mains on their server, those teams happened in mass proportion.

Of course, this was before hl, when 6s was the easiest way for a community to get into competitive. Now, hl just makes more sense. You can keep your same classes, and it's a lot more casual, so you can still remain a part of your public community at the same time as playing in the league. When was the last time you saw a public server community really go into 6s? It's a lot rarer nowadays.

I'm not mad at hl for this, it's just the way it is.

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I said that the situational classes are worse because they're, well, situational. You can't argue against that by posting examples of very specific situations where they work. That's the whole point! They're only good in those specific situations! And yes, I can say a scout is flat out better than a pyro, because it's NOT a situational class. 90% of the time it will be better than a pyro, and the other 10% it will be worse. That's enough for me.

The thing is, yes pyros and spies have very specific skills that can be useful (denying damage/area for pyros, getting priority picks and scouting information for spy). However, they are almost forced to specialize on those specific skills, because they are so bad at just doing damage. If you don't realize that the classes that do more damage/get more kills ARE inherently better, I don't know what to even say. Ever wonder why teams in a 5v6 get destroyed 5-0? Not just lose by a little bit, but get annihilated, even if they're better? Because tf2 is so contingent on damage output that like 4-5000 less results in a complete whitewash. Look at a match where a team wins like 5-1 in 20 minutes and see how the damage between the two teams still only differs by a few thousand. When you have less damage dealing potential, your class is worse THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME. Period.

I never said that any of the utility classes are useless. and yes, obviously if the 6s rules only allowed 1 scout or soldier you'd see more utilities; would you rather just use 4 players on your team? of course not.

I simply said the other classes were overall BETTER. I think this really shows on top teams like -ts- that have some of the best players in each class. TMP and stabby might be really good, but no one's AFRAID of them like they are Jake or ruwin.

I will concede that the hl format slighly CHANGES which classes are the most powerful (soldier is a bit worse and sniper is much much better). However, in 6s you can always run a class configuration that allows a more neutral distribution of power, regardless of which classes are most powerful in any given situation. In hl that's not the case.

Again, I never said the situational classes are useless. It's in their name, they're situational, lol. A lot of dumb 6s players want to ban degreaser, axtinguisher, flare gun, etc. because they feel it makes pyros too strong in the situations where they're useful. I just say, well, in that situation the pyro SHOULD be powerful.

That still doesn't change the fact that, if given the option, you would run a different class over the pyro the vast majority of the time. hl might seem more open to new players because you can play any class, which is definitely a fair way of looking at it. However, I think it's equally fair to look at it as less open to raising the skill ceiling, high-level competition, and an evolving metagame. After all, when half of your team is permanently weaker than the other half it makes things more difficult in that regard.

again, you're conflating two points which weakens your argument

the first is that hl is fun with all the classes and ain't no changin that. I agree. I love hl!

the second is that the hl classes are just as useful as the 6s classes, just "in their own special way". um, no. if they were, THEY'D BE USED IN 6S, WHERE THEY'RE ALSO ALLOWED. demo is better than pyro. scout is better than spy. FACT. EVEN FACTORING IN all the airblasts, med picks, etc., those classes are just much worse. if you won't even admit that much then no one can have an honest discussion about the game mode.

br0 is the laziest team in the history of invite, gl with that

rofl thief is a clown

nice guy and a good med, im sure hed be good at scout too, try him out

you missed my point. I'm not saying 2 scouts would be more fun. I'm saying that 2 scouts would be BETTER. you'd have a higher chance of winning.

also, the forcing situation thing is simply untrue. if you were playing 6v6 and the other team ran a heavy, a sniper, a pyro and a spy, would it force you to offclass too?

no, you'd run cookie cutter and destroy them.

I'm not saying hl is less fun. I'm saying that, at the highest levels, half of your team will inherently ALWAYS do more work than the other half. your engi, pyro and spy will not do shit in comparison to your scout or demo or sniper. that's a fact.

if they're more situational, they're worse. it's not like, along with forcing you to use 1 of every class, hl also forces you to only play in situations where those classes are worse.

if you could choose between the hl setup or 2 scouts instead of a spy, which would you pick?

lick her neck

if anything, the biggest problem with hl balance-wise is that spy and pyro and the like are just worse than some of the more important classes (esp scout/demo/sniper)

like, it may have been less noticeable when the top teams had like the best pyro in the world and then like an open soldier, but now it's just painful how much better some classes are than others

NEEEEERDSTAAAAARS

your logic is ridiculously stupid

notice how literally EVERY hl player in this thread other than infinite gets treated just fine?

infinite it's fucking pathetic that you keep saying there's an "elite circlejerk" of players here that will minusfrag everything you say regardless of content, and that people giving you props on the ugc forum is totally fair and balanced and not a circlejerk itself. let's list the reasons why each forum is supposedly a circlejerk for a certain viewpoint:

ugc forums:
-everyone there plays hl
-you are an admin there
-you and all the other admins all played on teams together and were some of the first teams in hl
-many of the lower level players have been mentored by some admins or just look up to them without having ever talked to them

this forum:
-presumably, everyone plays 6s

the problem with that? ALMOST EVERYONE HERE IN THIS THREAD PLAYS HL. this is a fuckin highlander discussion forum. the only reason you think there is a "circlejerk" of people against you here is because you try to carry yourself the same way you do on the ugc forums, where there is an actual circle jerk FOR you and the other admins, and get called out for being a cunt here.

other ugc admins and hl players, many less well-known or influential than you as well as some on equal footing (hein) have posted on here and have not been minus fragged to shit. want to know why? because they aren't assholes.

goddamn crus when did you turn into ametrine :<>