Theoretically, if some amateur mapmaker whose name rhymed with Schmidgel wanted to revise Turbine for competitive play, what kind of changes would need to be made and what would be the ideal gamemode, Koth or 3CP? (5CP would be a bit of a stretch for Turbine)
Turbine revision discussion
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Map Discussion
Theoretically, if some amateur mapmaker whose name rhymed with Schmidgel wanted to revise Turbine for competitive play, what kind of changes would need to be made and what would be the ideal gamemode, Koth or 3CP? (5CP would be a bit of a stretch for Turbine)
While I and I'm sure many others appreciate your enthusiasm there are a couple things wrong with this.
CaptainZidgelTurbine
CTF has been dead and probably has negative chance to ever see light again; other custom 5CP maps would be considered before a revised Turbine.
CaptainZidgelcp_turbine
no
CaptainZidgelkoth_turbine
no
While I and I'm sure many others appreciate your enthusiasm there are a couple things wrong with this.
[quote=CaptainZidgel]Turbine[/quote]
CTF has been dead and probably has negative chance to ever see light again; other custom 5CP maps would be considered before a revised Turbine.
[quote=CaptainZidgel]cp_turbine[/quote]
no
[quote=CaptainZidgel]koth_turbine[/quote]
[b][u]no[/u][/b]
[quote=CaptainZidgel]Turbine[/quote]
CTF has been dead and probably has negative chance to ever see light again; other custom 5CP maps would be considered before a revised Turbine.
[quote=CaptainZidgel]cp_turbine[/quote]
no
[quote=CaptainZidgel]koth_turbine[/quote]
[b][u]no[/u][/b]
Isn't the only 3CP that was successful to some degree gravel pit(even then much disliked by many)? Afaik every other 3cp have been pretty bad, can't remember the valve maps but junction/hydro? Imagining turbine even as koth/cp with all it's anxity causing mid and all these narrow-ish square hallways with corners is just aids.
Edit: If you wanted to make turbine fitting into 5cp setting or even the ones above, I think you would have so much that it'd become a pretty much different map, which could be cool though if it was fun to play in.
I may be wrong here totally as inexperienced as I am but maybe it makes some sense :d
Isn't the only 3CP that was successful to some degree gravel pit(even then much disliked by many)? Afaik every other 3cp have been pretty bad, can't remember the valve maps but junction/hydro? Imagining turbine even as koth/cp with all it's anxity causing mid and all these narrow-ish square hallways with corners is just aids.
Edit: If you wanted to make turbine fitting into 5cp setting or even the ones above, I think you would have so much that it'd become a pretty much different map, which could be cool though if it was fun to play in.
I may be wrong here totally as inexperienced as I am but maybe it makes some sense :d
Edit: If you wanted to make turbine fitting into 5cp setting or even the ones above, I think you would have so much that it'd become a pretty much different map, which could be cool though if it was fun to play in.
I may be wrong here totally as inexperienced as I am but maybe it makes some sense :d
Actually, in my opinion, the only maps to be potentially revised and remade to suit the competitive play out of all ctf maps would be doublecross and landfall. With proper changes, they could become somewhat decent koth maps. Landfall probably has the best mid potential out of all ctf maps.
Actually, in my opinion, the only maps to be potentially revised and remade to suit the competitive play out of all ctf maps would be doublecross and landfall. With proper changes, they could become somewhat decent koth maps. Landfall probably has the best mid potential out of all ctf maps.
I think redoing turbine is not worth your effort and your time would be better spent making a new map that you can truly call your own.
I think redoing turbine is not worth your effort and your time would be better spent making a new map that you can truly call your own.
nuttynutnutActually, in my opinion, the only maps to be potentially revised and remade to suit the competitive play out of all ctf maps would be doublecross and landfall. With proper changes, they could become somewhat decent koth maps. Landfall probably has the best mid potential out of all ctf maps.
i have no idea what doublecross would look like without the pit, which you would have to remove.
[quote=nuttynutnut]Actually, in my opinion, the only maps to be potentially revised and remade to suit the competitive play out of all ctf maps would be doublecross and landfall. With proper changes, they could become somewhat decent koth maps. Landfall probably has the best mid potential out of all ctf maps.[/quote]
i have no idea what doublecross would look like without the pit, which you would have to remove.
i have no idea what doublecross would look like without the pit, which you would have to remove.
sageausI can't really visualize turbine still being called turbine with how much you would have to change to make it a good enough map for competitive play.
Ok but hypothetically what would those changes be?
[quote=sageaus]I can't really visualize turbine still being called turbine with how much you would have to change to make it a good enough map for competitive play.[/quote]
Ok but hypothetically what would those changes be?
Ok but hypothetically what would those changes be?
I understand the appeal of modifying an existing map. People already know it (at least to an extent) and know the name, so it's easy to get support. You won't end up working on a map for years going "hey guys remember me I'm here pls halp"
That said, some maps aren't worth fixing. Turbine is on that list. I'd also say Granary is on that list personally, but here we are anyways.
I understand the appeal of modifying an existing map. People already know it (at least to an extent) and know the name, so it's easy to get support. You won't end up working on a map for years going "hey guys remember me I'm here pls halp"
That said, some maps aren't worth fixing. Turbine is on that list. I'd also say Granary is on that list personally, but here we are anyways.
That said, some maps aren't worth fixing. Turbine is on that list. I'd also say Granary is on that list personally, but here we are anyways.
CaptainZidgelsageausI can't really visualize turbine still being called turbine with how much you would have to change to make it a good enough map for competitive play.Ok but hypothetically what would those changes be?
Never played/watched comp turbine when it was played in EU but I've played 1100 hours on that terrible map so I think I somewhat have a sense of what's wrong with parts of the map.
Spawn:
- 2 easy to lock down exits. 1 uber can lock an entire team in spawn. A sniper can watch both exits from shutter stairs
Spawn area and corridor which both exits lead to would need a big rework to block the sightlines and make leaving spawn not a death trap
Spawn stairs:
- Stairs leading to flag room might seem like a good idea on paper to give the defending team high ground but it actually just locks the defenders in spawn because the stairs funnel the team and make it super easy to spam if an enemy combo with uber is in flag room
- Stairs leading to shutter are less of an issue compared to map room but still feel terrible for similar reasons except you're pushing against a sticky trap outside shutter so gl with that
Suggestion for both spawn and spawn stairs: remove the stairs completely. Put spawn at the same level as flag room. Rework the spawn area completely. Needs more exits, needs more space, needs to not be a death trap
Flag room:
- Probably the least problematic area on the entire map but also it's a bunch of flat ground with very minor elevation so there's not much good to say about it either. Probably the only part of the map that isn't in a need for a major rework
- The corridor leading from mid to flag room is an issue though. Sniper sightline from medium hp to spawn stairs
Suggestion for flag room and corridor: maybe a bit more elevation around spawn room (higher flag, slightly lower ground around flag? idk) or some props would help
Block sightline from corridor to spawn stairs. Maybe make the corridor curve around to the left. I'd be against removing an entrance because that'd only leave the teams with 1 entrance from corridor. Needs to be moved around more
Vents:
Dear god this is so bad.
Suggestion for vents: needs to be an actual area where things can happen. Would mean widening the entire map so there's room to move around and stuff. same style as mid-flag room corridor maybe. Could be interesting if designed well. Can potentially also solve the shutter issue
Shutter:
- A single demoman can sit on medium pack and lock down the vents-mid exit + shutter with traps
"suggestion": this all depends about how spawn area and vents would be changed. Could add some glass to the sides to spot a demo if really needed or remove shutter. Would prioritize spawn/vent changes and then decide for shutter.
(Might continue this tomorrow if people actually agree on this. Have to leave literally right now to something)
still to do:
-bats
-mid (turbines, crates)
-mid steel stairs
edit: Here I am
Bats: Might not need any changes depending on what you change with vents and mid. Pretty ridiculous sniper sightlines but then again no matter how much you'd change mid there'd still be at least 5 better spots to have your sniper stand
Turbines and crates: I actually like the turbines as a prop. Though having 3 of them might not be needed. What you'd change about those depends on if you're making it koth/cp or keeping ctf. If there's be a cp you'd probably remove the middle one. I'd rather have there be only 1 in the middle for ctf.
This would leave the sightlines from corridor to corridor quite open but that's where the crates come into play. The crates aren't the absolute worst but it's not good map design.
I'd like to think people prefer ground elevation changing instead of having a bunch of flat ground and putting a bunch of props on it (It's always been my theory that's a big reason why granary is so disliked).
Steel stairs: Snipers can shoot through it. Not that big of an issue though imo. Could look into the turbine_pro maps that exist already. They add an extra connector from steel stairs to corridor which I think is pretty nice.
Suggestion for mid: Make mid bigger, mess around with the props. Add some if needed. Mess around with the elevation (if koth/cp slightly elevated cp?) I'd personally try to move the crates diagonally to block the sightlines between the 2 corridors completely and maybe mess with the amount of turbines and their placement. This is just a first idea I had though. I have no clue if that'd be an improvement but it'd be a start if you want to find something that is. Maybe add turbine_pro connector from corridor hp to steel stairs.
Also maybe add some tiny ammo packs at mid. For pub turbine it'd be terrible because of engineers but in a comp setting a sentry at mid won't be effective
[quote=CaptainZidgel][quote=sageaus]I can't really visualize turbine still being called turbine with how much you would have to change to make it a good enough map for competitive play.[/quote]
Ok but hypothetically what would those changes be?[/quote]
Never played/watched comp turbine when it was played in EU but I've played 1100 hours on that terrible map so I think I somewhat have a sense of what's wrong with parts of the map.
Spawn:
- 2 easy to lock down exits. 1 uber can lock an entire team in spawn. A sniper can watch both exits from shutter stairs
Spawn area and corridor which both exits lead to would need a big rework to block the sightlines and make leaving spawn not a death trap
Spawn stairs:
- Stairs leading to flag room might seem like a good idea on paper to give the defending team high ground but it actually just locks the defenders in spawn because the stairs funnel the team and make it super easy to spam if an enemy combo with uber is in flag room
- Stairs leading to shutter are less of an issue compared to map room but still feel terrible for similar reasons except you're pushing against a sticky trap outside shutter so gl with that
Suggestion for both spawn and spawn stairs: remove the stairs completely. Put spawn at the same level as flag room. Rework the spawn area completely. Needs more exits, needs more space, needs to not be a death trap
Flag room:
- Probably the least problematic area on the entire map but also it's a bunch of flat ground with very minor elevation so there's not much good to say about it either. Probably the only part of the map that isn't in a need for a major rework
- The corridor leading from mid to flag room is an issue though. Sniper sightline from medium hp to spawn stairs
Suggestion for flag room and corridor: maybe a bit more elevation around spawn room (higher flag, slightly lower ground around flag? idk) or some props would help
Block sightline from corridor to spawn stairs. Maybe make the corridor curve around to the left. I'd be against removing an entrance because that'd only leave the teams with 1 entrance from corridor. Needs to be moved around more
Vents:
Dear god this is so bad.
Suggestion for vents: needs to be an actual area where things can happen. Would mean widening the entire map so there's room to move around and stuff. same style as mid-flag room corridor maybe. Could be interesting if designed well. Can potentially also solve the shutter issue
Shutter:
- A single demoman can sit on medium pack and lock down the vents-mid exit + shutter with traps
"suggestion": this all depends about how spawn area and vents would be changed. Could add some glass to the sides to spot a demo if really needed or remove shutter. Would prioritize spawn/vent changes and then decide for shutter.
(Might continue this tomorrow if people actually agree on this. Have to leave literally right now to something)
still to do:
-bats
-mid (turbines, crates)
-mid steel stairs
edit: Here I am
Bats: Might not need any changes depending on what you change with vents and mid. Pretty ridiculous sniper sightlines but then again no matter how much you'd change mid there'd still be at least 5 better spots to have your sniper stand
Turbines and crates: I actually like the turbines as a prop. Though having 3 of them might not be needed. What you'd change about those depends on if you're making it koth/cp or keeping ctf. If there's be a cp you'd probably remove the middle one. I'd rather have there be only 1 in the middle for ctf.
This would leave the sightlines from corridor to corridor quite open but that's where the crates come into play. The crates aren't the absolute worst but it's not good map design.
I'd like to think people prefer ground elevation changing instead of having a bunch of flat ground and putting a bunch of props on it (It's always been my theory that's a big reason why granary is so disliked).
Steel stairs: Snipers can shoot through it. Not that big of an issue though imo. Could look into the turbine_pro maps that exist already. They add an extra connector from steel stairs to corridor which I think is pretty nice.
Suggestion for mid: Make mid bigger, mess around with the props. Add some if needed. Mess around with the elevation (if koth/cp slightly elevated cp?) I'd personally try to move the crates diagonally to block the sightlines between the 2 corridors completely and maybe mess with the amount of turbines and their placement. This is just a first idea I had though. I have no clue if that'd be an improvement but it'd be a start if you want to find something that is. Maybe add turbine_pro connector from corridor hp to steel stairs.
Also maybe add some tiny ammo packs at mid. For pub turbine it'd be terrible because of engineers but in a comp setting a sentry at mid won't be effective
Ok but hypothetically what would those changes be?[/quote]
Never played/watched comp turbine when it was played in EU but I've played 1100 hours on that terrible map so I think I somewhat have a sense of what's wrong with parts of the map.
Spawn:
- 2 easy to lock down exits. 1 uber can lock an entire team in spawn. A sniper can watch both exits from shutter stairs
Spawn area and corridor which both exits lead to would need a big rework to block the sightlines and make leaving spawn not a death trap
Spawn stairs:
- Stairs leading to flag room might seem like a good idea on paper to give the defending team high ground but it actually just locks the defenders in spawn because the stairs funnel the team and make it super easy to spam if an enemy combo with uber is in flag room
- Stairs leading to shutter are less of an issue compared to map room but still feel terrible for similar reasons except you're pushing against a sticky trap outside shutter so gl with that
Suggestion for both spawn and spawn stairs: remove the stairs completely. Put spawn at the same level as flag room. Rework the spawn area completely. Needs more exits, needs more space, needs to not be a death trap
Flag room:
- Probably the least problematic area on the entire map but also it's a bunch of flat ground with very minor elevation so there's not much good to say about it either. Probably the only part of the map that isn't in a need for a major rework
- The corridor leading from mid to flag room is an issue though. Sniper sightline from medium hp to spawn stairs
Suggestion for flag room and corridor: maybe a bit more elevation around spawn room (higher flag, slightly lower ground around flag? idk) or some props would help
Block sightline from corridor to spawn stairs. Maybe make the corridor curve around to the left. I'd be against removing an entrance because that'd only leave the teams with 1 entrance from corridor. Needs to be moved around more
Vents:
Dear god this is so bad.
Suggestion for vents: needs to be an actual area where things can happen. Would mean widening the entire map so there's room to move around and stuff. same style as mid-flag room corridor maybe. Could be interesting if designed well. Can potentially also solve the shutter issue
Shutter:
- A single demoman can sit on medium pack and lock down the vents-mid exit + shutter with traps
"suggestion": this all depends about how spawn area and vents would be changed. Could add some glass to the sides to spot a demo if really needed or remove shutter. Would prioritize spawn/vent changes and then decide for shutter.
(Might continue this tomorrow if people actually agree on this. Have to leave literally right now to something)
still to do:
-bats
-mid (turbines, crates)
-mid steel stairs
edit: Here I am
Bats: Might not need any changes depending on what you change with vents and mid. Pretty ridiculous sniper sightlines but then again no matter how much you'd change mid there'd still be at least 5 better spots to have your sniper stand
Turbines and crates: I actually like the turbines as a prop. Though having 3 of them might not be needed. What you'd change about those depends on if you're making it koth/cp or keeping ctf. If there's be a cp you'd probably remove the middle one. I'd rather have there be only 1 in the middle for ctf.
This would leave the sightlines from corridor to corridor quite open but that's where the crates come into play. The crates aren't the absolute worst but it's not good map design.
I'd like to think people prefer ground elevation changing instead of having a bunch of flat ground and putting a bunch of props on it (It's always been my theory that's a big reason why granary is so disliked).
Steel stairs: Snipers can shoot through it. Not that big of an issue though imo. Could look into the turbine_pro maps that exist already. They add an extra connector from steel stairs to corridor which I think is pretty nice.
Suggestion for mid: Make mid bigger, mess around with the props. Add some if needed. Mess around with the elevation (if koth/cp slightly elevated cp?) I'd personally try to move the crates diagonally to block the sightlines between the 2 corridors completely and maybe mess with the amount of turbines and their placement. This is just a first idea I had though. I have no clue if that'd be an improvement but it'd be a start if you want to find something that is. Maybe add turbine_pro connector from corridor hp to steel stairs.
Also maybe add some tiny ammo packs at mid. For pub turbine it'd be terrible because of engineers but in a comp setting a sentry at mid won't be effective
#10 hypothetically the changes would be so immense that there'd be no point to even calling it Turbine anymore, because it would resemble an entirely different map.
#10 hypothetically the changes would be so immense that there'd be no point to even calling it Turbine anymore, because it would resemble an entirely different map.
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