I feel like in a very sentry meta it would not break the game (not that it broke the game before imo). Spam is spam and lack of ammo has never stopped me from spamming so I don't understand that argument either :/
Keep in mind that stuff like iron bomber and the winger and hecking battalion backup is allowed but no dice on the mangler why?
EDIT: It seems like main point against the cowmangler is that the right-klick charge shot is considered too low risk/high reward mechanic that it toxic to the game and should be banned.
+ the no ammo benefit seems like too much for people.
+ some people don't like the esthetics
IMO, those are valid reasons but I guess not significant enough to actually ban the weapon. I think I don't mind how the game would be affected if it was allowed. I could be wrong, just haven't been convinced yet at this point. But who cares what I think. Therefore I am going to drop the case.
I feel like in a very sentry meta it would not break the game (not that it broke the game before imo). Spam is spam and lack of ammo has never stopped me from spamming so I don't understand that argument either :/
Keep in mind that stuff like iron bomber and the winger and hecking battalion backup is allowed but no dice on the mangler why?
EDIT: It seems like main point against the cowmangler is that the right-klick charge shot is considered too low risk/high reward mechanic that it toxic to the game and should be banned.
+ the no ammo benefit seems like too much for people.
+ some people don't like the esthetics
IMO, those are valid reasons but I guess not significant enough to actually ban the weapon. I think I don't mind how the game would be affected if it was allowed. I could be wrong, just haven't been convinced yet at this point. But who cares what I think. Therefore I am going to drop the case.
chiefdoglack of ammo has never stopped me from spamming so I don't understand that argument either :/
well it does for most, but i'd still like to see people give the cow mangler a 2nd chance
[quote=chiefdog]lack of ammo has never stopped me from spamming so I don't understand that argument either :/[/quote]
well it does for most, but i'd still like to see people give the cow mangler a 2nd chance
an_aliaschiefdoglack of ammo has never stopped me from spamming so I don't understand that argument either :/
well it does for most, but i'd still like to see people give the cow mangler a 2nd chance
I mean technically I stop spamming when I am low on ammo but then its like a second to reset, get ammo and back to spamming. They way its done usually is anyway that u spam with rotations while collecting ammo so u don't give up ur positions (not that it would matter in most cases)
[quote=an_alias][quote=chiefdog]lack of ammo has never stopped me from spamming so I don't understand that argument either :/[/quote]
well it does for most, but i'd still like to see people give the cow mangler a 2nd chance[/quote]
I mean technically I stop spamming when I am low on ammo but then its like a second to reset, get ammo and back to spamming. They way its done usually is anyway that u spam with rotations while collecting ammo so u don't give up ur positions (not that it would matter in most cases)
airshots and kills with it look dogshit and it visually doesn't belong in TF2
airshots and kills with it look dogshit and it visually doesn't belong in TF2
disgaree looks fucking sick
disgaree looks fucking sick
Lupusairshots and kills with it look dogshit and it visually doesn't belong in TF2
I personally like the sound, the visuals and they way airshots and kills look and would still use the mangler if they removed the charged shot and the no-ammo mechanic.
[quote=Lupus]airshots and kills with it look dogshit and it visually doesn't belong in TF2[/quote]
I personally like the sound, the visuals and they way airshots and kills look and would still use the mangler if they removed the charged shot and the no-ammo mechanic.
chiefdogwould still use the mangler if they removed the charged shot and the no-ammo mechanic.
that's called a rocket launcher then
[quote=chiefdog]would still use the mangler if they removed the charged shot and the no-ammo mechanic.[/quote]
that's called a rocket launcher then
Rockzchiefdogwould still use the mangler if they removed the charged shot and the no-ammo mechanic.
that's called a rocket launcher then
The sound, visuals and I think even where the rockets come from are not the same tho.
EDIT: I want to discuss why the mangler is not allowed while stuff like iron bomber - a direct buff for demo and no reason not to use it over the stock - is allowed.
[quote=Rockz][quote=chiefdog]would still use the mangler if they removed the charged shot and the no-ammo mechanic.[/quote]
that's called a rocket launcher then[/quote]
The sound, visuals and I think even where the rockets come from are not the same tho.
EDIT: I want to discuss why the mangler is not allowed while stuff like iron bomber - a direct buff for demo and no reason not to use it over the stock - is allowed.
chiefdogThe sound, visuals and I think even where the rockets come from are not the same tho.
EDIT: I want to discuss why the mangler is not allowed while stuff like iron bomber - a direct buff for demo and no reason not to use it over the stock - is allowed.
cow mangler, as a direct upgrade, was much stronger then it is iron bomber to stock
the point is, you didnt have to leave your spamming spot in order to get ammo, which mightve allowed someone to sneak in. plus demo can shoot few projectiles and eliminate a sentry within 2 seconds (even faster with some scout pistol focus), so you could run 2 manglers without a problem (unless kritzkrieg)
[quote=chiefdog]The sound, visuals and I think even where the rockets come from are not the same tho.
EDIT: I want to discuss why the mangler is not allowed while stuff like iron bomber - a direct buff for demo and no reason not to use it over the stock - is allowed.[/quote]
cow mangler, as a direct upgrade, was much stronger then it is iron bomber to stock
the point is, you didnt have to leave your spamming spot in order to get ammo, which mightve allowed someone to sneak in. plus demo can shoot few projectiles and eliminate a sentry within 2 seconds (even faster with some scout pistol focus), so you could run 2 manglers without a problem (unless kritzkrieg)
The cowmangler doesn't "break" the game like some of the other banned unlocks, but the outcry has always been the charge shot at it's core, with the ammo as the cherry on top (your demo has many more pipes to spam if your pocket is running it, as well).
It's one of those bans that gets put in because, while sometimes you can hear the shot, taking a mini-crit charge shot across the map, from a spot you can't hear it from, the second you decide to peek through a door to get info, feels like the most random, unskilled, and unenjoyable thing. Burning your clip hardly means anything at certain distances; you have plenty of time to reload and the risk is worth the reward since your 140dmg laser beam can hard stall/kill pushes instantly.
A lot of weapon ban arguments come down to the philosophy. Do you allow it because it doesn't disrupt the flow of 6s past a certain threshold? Or do you disallow it because the mechanic of an unskilled cross map death laser isn't something people want to play with/against?
For reference, The Cow Mangler 5000 was allowed once from ESEA 22-26, and then a second time during ESEA 29-30; addition due to the first philosophy, removal due to the latter.
The cowmangler doesn't "break" the game like some of the other banned unlocks, but the outcry has always been the charge shot at it's core, with the ammo as the cherry on top (your demo has many more pipes to spam if your pocket is running it, as well).
It's one of those bans that gets put in because, while sometimes you can hear the shot, taking a mini-crit charge shot across the map, from a spot you can't hear it from, the second you decide to peek through a door to get info, feels like the most random, unskilled, and unenjoyable thing. Burning your clip hardly means anything at certain distances; you have plenty of time to reload and the risk is worth the reward since your 140dmg laser beam can hard stall/kill pushes instantly.
A lot of weapon ban arguments come down to the philosophy. Do you allow it because it doesn't disrupt the flow of 6s past a certain threshold? Or do you disallow it because the mechanic of an unskilled cross map death laser isn't something people want to play with/against?
For reference, The Cow Mangler 5000 was allowed once from ESEA 22-26, and then a second time during ESEA 29-30; addition due to the first philosophy, removal due to the latter.
RockzchiefdogThe sound, visuals and I think even where the rockets come from are not the same tho.
EDIT: I want to discuss why the mangler is not allowed while stuff like iron bomber - a direct buff for demo and no reason not to use it over the stock - is allowed.
cow mangler, as a direct upgrade, was much stronger then it is iron bomber to stock
the point is, you didnt have to leave your spamming spot in order to get ammo, which mightve allowed someone to sneak in. plus demo can shoot few projectiles and eliminate a sentry within 2 seconds (even faster with some scout pistol focus), so you could run 2 manglers without a problem (unless kritzkrieg)
The iron bomber has a hitbox 4 times larger than the stick one. If there is no reason not to use the stock then it is a buff for sure and a direct upgrade. Arguing which is stronger is relative and I would say that the iron bomber is buff arguably too strong if stock is useless in comparison. There are a lot of cases when u would want to take out the sentry before push so not to waist ur uber on it because demo does not have the same angles soldiers have i.e every last point?
[quote=Rockz][quote=chiefdog]The sound, visuals and I think even where the rockets come from are not the same tho.
EDIT: I want to discuss why the mangler is not allowed while stuff like iron bomber - a direct buff for demo and no reason not to use it over the stock - is allowed.[/quote]
cow mangler, as a direct upgrade, was much stronger then it is iron bomber to stock
the point is, you didnt have to leave your spamming spot in order to get ammo, which mightve allowed someone to sneak in. plus demo can shoot few projectiles and eliminate a sentry within 2 seconds (even faster with some scout pistol focus), so you could run 2 manglers without a problem (unless kritzkrieg)[/quote]
The iron bomber has a hitbox 4 times larger than the stick one. If there is no reason not to use the stock then it is a buff for sure and a direct upgrade. Arguing which is stronger is relative and I would say that the iron bomber is buff arguably too strong if stock is useless in comparison. There are a lot of cases when u would want to take out the sentry before push so not to waist ur uber on it because demo does not have the same angles soldiers have i.e every last point?
Jarrett000A lot of weapon ban arguments come down to the philosophy. Do you allow it because it doesn't disrupt the flow of 6s past a certain threshold? Or do you disallow it because the mechanic of an unskilled cross map death laser isn't something people want to play with/against?
Could one argue then that they don't want to play against the iron bomber as it is more unskilled vs the stock (thx to the hitbox)?
We have plugins that remove scout moment speed and gb and whatnot, I don't know anything about coding plugins but would it be possible to disable the charged shot if it such a huge deal?
[quote=Jarrett000]A lot of weapon ban arguments come down to the philosophy. Do you allow it because it doesn't disrupt the flow of 6s past a certain threshold? Or do you disallow it because the mechanic of an unskilled cross map death laser isn't something people want to play with/against?[/quote]
Could one argue then that they don't want to play against the iron bomber as it is more unskilled vs the stock (thx to the hitbox)?
We have plugins that remove scout moment speed and gb and whatnot, I don't know anything about coding plugins but would it be possible to disable the charged shot if it such a huge deal?
chiefdogJarrett000A lot of weapon ban arguments come down to the philosophy. Do you allow it because it doesn't disrupt the flow of 6s past a certain threshold? Or do you disallow it because the mechanic of an unskilled cross map death laser isn't something people want to play with/against?
Could one argue then that they don't want to play against the iron bomber as it is more unskilled vs the stock (thx to the hitbox)?
Sure, but there's still a ratio of reward received vs skill required, which is definitely skewed way higher for the cow mangler charge shot than the iron bomber hit box, so one being banned and the other untouched is not bizarre.
[quote=chiefdog][quote=Jarrett000]A lot of weapon ban arguments come down to the philosophy. Do you allow it because it doesn't disrupt the flow of 6s past a certain threshold? Or do you disallow it because the mechanic of an unskilled cross map death laser isn't something people want to play with/against?[/quote]
Could one argue then that they don't want to play against the iron bomber as it is more unskilled vs the stock (thx to the hitbox)?
[/quote]
Sure, but there's still a ratio of reward received vs skill required, which is definitely skewed way higher for the cow mangler charge shot than the iron bomber hit box, so one being banned and the other untouched is not bizarre.
Jarrett000chiefdogJarrett000A lot of weapon ban arguments come down to the philosophy. Do you allow it because it doesn't disrupt the flow of 6s past a certain threshold? Or do you disallow it because the mechanic of an unskilled cross map death laser isn't something people want to play with/against?
Could one argue then that they don't want to play against the iron bomber as it is more unskilled vs the stock (thx to the hitbox)?
Sure, but there's still a ratio of reward received vs skill required, which is definitely skewed way higher for the cow mangler charge shot than the iron bomber hit box, so one being banned and the other untouched is not bizarre.
I think my weakness in this argument is that I haven't seen the charged shot being effective. I keep thinking of scenarios where:
1# The charge shot is done from a long range so the soldier is safe if he has no ammo. The charge shot can be easily dodged from that range. If the soldier misses, he wasted his whole clip for zero damage and now can no longer spam => actually reduced spam.
2# The shot is done from a close range so it is harder to dodge but the soldier in turn is in trouble if he gets caught out.
Again, I lack the proper experience from playing with and against the mangler and would like to see it in action. I only remember experiencing it in etf2l for a month or so (maybe even less) when it was allowed and thought it was nice.
[quote=Jarrett000][quote=chiefdog][quote=Jarrett000]A lot of weapon ban arguments come down to the philosophy. Do you allow it because it doesn't disrupt the flow of 6s past a certain threshold? Or do you disallow it because the mechanic of an unskilled cross map death laser isn't something people want to play with/against?[/quote]
Could one argue then that they don't want to play against the iron bomber as it is more unskilled vs the stock (thx to the hitbox)?
[/quote]
Sure, but there's still a ratio of reward received vs skill required, which is definitely skewed way higher for the cow mangler charge shot than the iron bomber hit box, so one being banned and the other untouched is not bizarre.[/quote]
I think my weakness in this argument is that I haven't seen the charged shot being effective. I keep thinking of scenarios where:
1# The charge shot is done from a long range so the soldier is safe if he has no ammo. The charge shot can be easily dodged from that range. If the soldier misses, he wasted his whole clip for zero damage and now can no longer spam => actually reduced spam.
2# The shot is done from a close range so it is harder to dodge but the soldier in turn is in trouble if he gets caught out.
Again, I lack the proper experience from playing with and against the mangler and would like to see it in action. I only remember experiencing it in etf2l for a month or so (maybe even less) when it was allowed and thought it was nice.
Right click kill medic across map stupid, enough.
Right click kill medic across map stupid, enough.
DomoCatFaceRight click kill medic across map stupid, enough.
sniper
[quote=DomoCatFace]Right click kill medic across map stupid, enough.[/quote]
sniper
coyo_geezerDomoCatFaceRight click kill medic across map stupid, enough.
sniper
sticky trap
[quote=coyo_geezer][quote=DomoCatFace]Right click kill medic across map stupid, enough.[/quote]
sniper[/quote]
sticky trap
chiefdogcoyo_geezerDomoCatFaceRight click kill medic across map stupid, enough.
sniper
sticky trap
Pootis POW
[quote=chiefdog][quote=coyo_geezer][quote=DomoCatFace]Right click kill medic across map stupid, enough.[/quote]
sniper[/quote]
sticky trap[/quote]
Pootis POW
Cow mangler should be banned for being a free dumb upgrade most of the time and i would agree that ur right that the iron bomber should be banned too for being an even bigger upgrade. That said people are right that hitting IB pipes is still harder than getting rewarded for brainlessly spamming the right-click and potentially being massively rewarded for it.
Cow mangler should be banned for being a free dumb upgrade most of the time and i would agree that ur right that the iron bomber should be banned too for being an even bigger upgrade. That said people are right that hitting IB pipes is still harder than getting rewarded for brainlessly spamming the right-click and potentially being massively rewarded for it.
MakCow mangler should be banned for being a free dumb upgrade most of the time and i would agree that ur right that the iron bomber should be banned too for being an even bigger upgrade. That said people are right that hitting IB pipes is still harder than getting rewarded for brainlessly spamming the right-click and potentially being massively rewarded for it.
Is it brainless tho? You have to time and aim it, like with the iron bomber. Miss-time and u have no ammo, miss and u do no damage. A buff to soldier seems appropriate imo considering scout and demo are so strong.
[quote=Mak]Cow mangler should be banned for being a free dumb upgrade most of the time and i would agree that ur right that the iron bomber should be banned too for being an even bigger upgrade. That said people are right that hitting IB pipes is still harder than getting rewarded for brainlessly spamming the right-click and potentially being massively rewarded for it.[/quote]
Is it brainless tho? You have to time and aim it, like with the iron bomber. Miss-time and u have no ammo, miss and u do no damage. A buff to soldier seems appropriate imo considering scout and demo are so strong.
chiefdog
Is it brainless tho? You have to time and aim it, like with the iron bomber. Miss-time and u have no ammo, miss and u do no damage. A buff to soldier seems appropriate imo considering scout and demo are so strong.
just like with da iron bomber it is a (mostly) free upside that doesnt add shit to da game lol. also soldier is literally a good class that has a tailor made plugin to buff it further if u still suck thats on u not the class
[quote=chiefdog]
Is it brainless tho? You have to time and aim it, like with the iron bomber. Miss-time and u have no ammo, miss and u do no damage. A buff to soldier seems appropriate imo considering scout and demo are so strong.[/quote]
just like with da iron bomber it is a (mostly) free upside that doesnt add shit to da game lol. also soldier is literally a good class that has a tailor made plugin to buff it further if u still suck thats on u not the class
[quote=chiefdog]Is it brainless tho? [/quote]
yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3x3tUH6eJY
Makchiefdog
Is it brainless tho? You have to time and aim it, like with the iron bomber. Miss-time and u have no ammo, miss and u do no damage. A buff to soldier seems appropriate imo considering scout and demo are so strong.
just like with da iron bomber it is a (mostly) free upside that doesnt add shit to da game lol. also soldier is literally a good class that has a tailor made plugin to buff it further if u still suck thats on u not the class
What plugin?
Also gj using insults to make a point, that makes your argument valid and convincing!
[quote=Mak][quote=chiefdog]
Is it brainless tho? You have to time and aim it, like with the iron bomber. Miss-time and u have no ammo, miss and u do no damage. A buff to soldier seems appropriate imo considering scout and demo are so strong.[/quote]
just like with da iron bomber it is a (mostly) free upside that doesnt add shit to da game lol. also soldier is literally a good class that has a tailor made plugin to buff it further if u still suck thats on u not the class[/quote]
What plugin?
Also gj using insults to make a point, that makes your argument valid and convincing!
RockzchiefdogIs it brainless tho?
yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3x3tUH6eJY
Do that significant amount of times and I can agree with you.
[quote=Rockz][quote=chiefdog]Is it brainless tho? [/quote]
yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3x3tUH6eJY[/quote]
Do that significant amount of times and I can agree with you.
idk if its just me but i also wouldn't like the cowmangler unbanned because i like to use the original over the stock rocket launcher and by unbanning the cowmangler i am forced to use the right side shooting of the stock rocket launcher to not be at a slight disadvantage
idk if its just me but i also wouldn't like the cowmangler unbanned because i like to use the original over the stock rocket launcher and by unbanning the cowmangler i am forced to use the right side shooting of the stock rocket launcher to not be at a slight disadvantage
chiefdogRockzchiefdogIs it brainless tho?
yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3x3tUH6eJY
Do that significant amount of times and I can agree with you.
no the point is I literally just kept spamming out of lobby without being in any sort of danger, while pumping out death rays every 8 seconds
[quote=chiefdog][quote=Rockz][quote=chiefdog]Is it brainless tho? [/quote]
yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3x3tUH6eJY[/quote]
Do that significant amount of times and I can agree with you.[/quote]
no the point is I literally just kept spamming out of lobby without being in any sort of danger, while pumping out death rays every 8 seconds
i get that ur in ur devil's advocate era but the reason for it being banned is very clear
i get that ur in ur devil's advocate era but the reason for it being banned is very clear
RockzchiefdogRockzchiefdogIs it brainless tho?
yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3x3tUH6eJY
Do that significant amount of times and I can agree with you.
no the point is I literally just kept spamming out of lobby without being in any sort of danger, while pumping out death rays every 8 seconds
Ah I see.
Crayoni get that ur in ur devil's advocate era but the reason for it being banned is very clear
"devil's advocate era" I like that :)
It honestly was not clear to me, I genuinely like what it brings to the table and wanted to have a healthy discussion and get input from others opinions.
What I am hearing tho is that the charge shot is too toxic and therefore can't be allowed. If no charge shot, do you think it then would be balanced enough? Don't forget it has zero counter-play to sentries then.
[quote=Rockz][quote=chiefdog][quote=Rockz][quote=chiefdog]Is it brainless tho? [/quote]
yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3x3tUH6eJY[/quote]
Do that significant amount of times and I can agree with you.[/quote]
no the point is I literally just kept spamming out of lobby without being in any sort of danger, while pumping out death rays every 8 seconds[/quote]
Ah I see.
[quote=Crayon]i get that ur in ur devil's advocate era but the reason for it being banned is very clear[/quote]
"devil's advocate era" I like that :)
It honestly was not clear to me, I genuinely like what it brings to the table and wanted to have a healthy discussion and get input from others opinions.
What I am hearing tho is that the charge shot is too toxic and therefore can't be allowed. If no charge shot, do you think it then would be balanced enough? Don't forget it has zero counter-play to sentries then.
Lupusairshots and kills with it look dogshit and it visually doesn't belong in TF2
it's ok to be wrong, the fazing out of existence shit is badass
but yeah the fact that i could just lob rockets like an idiot for the entirety of that clip is why it was banned
[quote=Lupus]airshots and kills with it look dogshit and it visually doesn't belong in TF2[/quote]
[url=https://youtu.be/E1ZeuxmUKRU?t=144]it's ok to be wrong,[/url] the fazing out of existence shit is badass
but yeah the fact that i could just lob rockets like an idiot for the entirety of that clip is why it was banned
its the most visually obstructive viewmodel ever, and when u turn vm off u still get those little floating electric particles every 2 seconds
its the most visually obstructive viewmodel ever, and when u turn vm off u still get those little floating electric particles every 2 seconds