Playing this map is depressing.

When a map is made of quality comparable to those maps, we play it.
see: process

no offense to the mapmaker, but a non-symmetrical (I mean 5CP style symmetrical, not koth style) 5CP that is largely designed for HL play will never be considered for 6s, and 6s players tend to like hating maps made for HL.

The map feels way too big from all the times I've played it, even in Highlander.

Maybe a slimming down on the size? And I'm curious, why was that path from behind second to mid taken out? It seems alright.

#33 Not speaking for Arnold, but IIRC it was too useful as a flank.

i like croissant, but it really does stalemate a ton in all of the times i've played it in highlander

there aren't many maps that i've played where the map can go into double overtime (~1 hour) where neither team has captured last yet

Playing it in HL was a pain, its a really large area at the points then usually ends up funneling you through 2 tiny chokes causing a stalemate.

i think the transitions need to be a bit shorter and the flank needs to be a bit tighter.

Keep the little over hang thing though if you make any massive changes that thing is dope as fuck bruh bruh

dustbowl

Good warm with a spot of butter.

I messed around on it for a bit and here's a few things i noticed on the new version

Now that this lower area on mid is concrete having this plant here doesn't make much sense and it makes for an unnoticeable sticky trap.

Also, and this may be intentional but I just want to point it out for the greater good I guess, removing this rock from the cliff on mid created this nice little perch/hiding spot, unfortunately it is not mirrored on the other side.

This last one is also possible on other versions (I only tried rc6) but all across the map I am able to clip into invisible walls and float where I shouldn't be able to. I did this by sticky/rocket jumping at the wall and it would catch me and allow me to float.
Examples:

I tried to do this on other maps like Snakewater and Process at similar locations but found it extremely difficult to impossible.

Way too big. People seem to think that big = good for HL, but this is definitely not the case as most of the classes can't move fast enough to capitalize on advantages, leading to stalemates on maps like Croissant.

The most accepted 5CPs in HL are Gully and Process, because they're relatively compact when compared to other 5CPs.

Anyways, in regards to the new flanks in the cave:

It's a bit disorienting at first, but that very well may be because they're so new to me. Definitely will have to see it in play before I make any snap judgements, but I doubt they'll do too much to address the main problem -- the enormous size of the map.

That said, I think this map is fucking gorgeous and have an immense amount of respect and admiration for you, Arnold. Please don't stop doing what you're doing; I look forward to playing another fantastic 5cp/Koth made by you someday soon.

Really, really good when buttered.

The map itself is really stalemate inducing and more suited for HL play.

its not suited for hl play whatsoever, the issue is last being impossible to cap unless you wipe the team then proceed to spawncamp

croissant rc8
----------------
-Adjusted spawns so you spawn faster when you capped enemy cp2
-Defenders spawn slower when defending cp1
-Spawntimes are decreased slightly overal
-Captimes have been decreased
-Added a hill on the long stretch leading to cp1 cutting sightlines and creating an area to fight over
-Added cover to cp2
-Fixed z-clipping issues
-Made some lamps jumpable instead of non-solid
-Several other bugfixes

Download
-----------
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2824637/cp_croissant_rc8.7z

Pics
-----
http://i.imgur.com/Fk0HTmA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/M81T5Cj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MqCIDN2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0iuWD9D.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MmAHBRK.jpg

Looks interesting! Glad to see you're still working on this, since I've always really liked croissant. Last on any 5CP in Highlander is hard to push and I think croissant was just a smidge harder than most. Hopefully this alleviates some of the problems. Keep it up!

Guess I'm weird but I like playing this map as a HL engie. I guess the 6s players hate it but I never found a reason too, I found my match on it fairly enjoyable.

I always feel extremely comfortable playing this map as Engineer in HL. There's so much to do and a lot of awesome spots to put all of your buildings. Honestly it's a perfect fit for the Engineer.

One of the apparent problems with cp2 is that there isn't a proper flank into it.

Gullywash has the hallway, and if you really don't want to come out right onto the minispire, you can go into the lunchbox room in their base and come up out river into the minibattlements.
On Badlands, you can go down valley and pop around a corner, then go above or below the bridge or jump up into battlements; As well, there's a kind of flank through house into a popular forward hold position.
On Process, you can come out onto battlements or below battlements or out of sewer.
On Granary, you can come up dropdown or out of yard and come up on the minibats or just pop out the lower back right corner (description is oriented facing mid), or just pop through that little Z connector on the yard side of the point.

All these flanks are useful: the short ones are dangerous and the long ones are safer and easier to have engagements inside fof.

On Croissant, the main choke into second is the bridge; under the bridge isn't especially useful, because the exit ends of its pathway are simply too far out of the way and parallel to the choke path to begin with. That's OK because it's so short. Then for the "long" flank you have this massive sightline on the beach. A sniper can see all the way to the chokepoint that comes out into the beach. Now, with the addition of this cover, it should be significantly harder for an offensive snipe down beach, giving it pure flank status. This is bad because it's a massive defensible sightline.

EDIT: freudian slip, fixed

Thanks for the feedback Wareya but I'm not sure I understand what you mean, if possible could you clarify with screenshots? I'm willing to add a flank for cp2 but it can't be as useful as the old tunnel flank because that was too much.

Yes I'm working on fixing that, even though rounds can last long it's probably more due to the skewed spawntimes than anything else. Though I'm trying to make it easier to push last still it can't be said that last is easy to defend either.

Are these any good? I came up with a more specific suggestion as well.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1811521/gwash.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1811521/cp_croissant_rc80005.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1811521/cp_croissant_rc80000.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1811521/cp_croissant_rc80001.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1811521/cp_croissant_rc80000-2.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1811521/cp_croissant_rc80003.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1811521/cp_croissant_rc80002.jpg

its like all the bad stuff of yukon with none of the good stuff

Last isn't as much of an issue as second is, in terms of pushing/attacking those points. Although both points have the same issue that wareya was pointing out, and I'll do my best to clarify/expand on what he said. He gave several examples of second points on other maps. All of these maps have 2 viable options to push through, the one considered to be more viable is often called the choke, the other is the flank, but having 2 viable options to push through, allows for the offensive team to adjust, and push in a way that counters the defending teams hold. Now with croissant second, theres 3 ways to push, through the lumber flank onto the beach and go either up to the bridge or through below, down the cave and wrap around to the bridge or flank through lower (basement of second), and finally, the only viable option being the bridge, which itself is not great to push from. Both the beach and bridge push have powerful sniper sightlines, but the bridge is at least on even ground with the defenders, where the cave and beach push, you are at a significant height disadvantage, and in a position that's far easier to receive damage than it is to deal it. Without getting into as much detail for the last point, it has the exact same issue, and I don't think that ramp you added on last will make a difference. There are once again 3 ways in, the lower flank through the small corner, significant height disadvantage, just as the other lower entrance, and then the main hallway, which is at even ground with the defenders but has a powerful sniper sightline. The shape of last is rather awkward, but if you managed to change it for second and last, so that there are 2 viable choices to push a combo through, I think croissant would be a lot more fun to play, less stalematey, and would be a good competitive map. I'm not sure how adjusting the spawners and cap time will help with the issues, I think it would most likely just slow the map down. It's great that you're working to improve the map, and I hope you don't take offense to my nitpicking, best of luck with however you choose to adjust your map.

Thanks a lot wareya, I'll be adjusting the flank. The sightline was also bothering me, should have tweaked that a while ago.

Thanks for the feedback Giraffe I'll also be making adjustments although adding another route doesn't seem likely I'll try and make the others more viable and probably small adjustments will suffice.

Sounds great, sorry for the wall of text, I had a lot of spare time :) Another route isn't needed as you said, the other routes just need to be more viable. GL

These are the main changes I've done for the next version.
Hopefully this will alleviate most of the problems.

-made falling off of last cp way less punishing
-quickly ascending from the lower area will make it more useful and cuts sightlines when you duck in and out, I'm aware it also makes it easier to hold the lower doors, but to do that you give up holding up top so that's good.
-added a medium medpack to the lower area
-added much needed cover and widened the flank route to lumbershack

http://i.imgur.com/8COquaK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r5ulHeL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lJ3ex8L.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Zi6wd1X.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MWx9Oar.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bAcpTMg.jpg

New version of croissant with some changes

- Fixed the spawntimes from rc8 had a slight bug (hence the recent release of rc9 again)
- Made falling off of last cp way less punishing by elevating most of the lower ground area to half of the original stairs
- Quickly ascending from the lower area will make it more useful and cuts sightlines when you duck in and out, I'm aware it also makes it easier to hold the lower doors, but to do that you give up holding up top so that's good.
- Added a medium medpack to the lower entrance to last
- Added much needed cover and widened the flank route to lumbershack
- Fixed z-clipping issues again
- Added birdpoop decals to the floor of midhouse with pidgeons on the framework on the roof to add realism.
- Added a small ramp where the flank tunnel used to be going to last
- Added the possibility to run up cp2 from the other side using boxes and ladders
- Didn't think of a better visual solution for the crates/ramp construction going to last
- Added non-solid windows to the map to make up for the recent removal on badlands

Decent pictures
--------------------
http://i.imgur.com/cjJMgZ0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7gW8gkI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ANXVME2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/43qogk3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1juGFgK.jpg

download rc9:
-----------------
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2824637/cp_croissant_rc9.7z

crappy pics of changes
--------------------------
http://i.imgur.com/8COquaK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r5ulHeL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lJ3ex8L.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Zi6wd1X.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MWx9Oar.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bAcpTMg.jpg

Not as good as a real croissant.

How could it be?