accidental double post :x

if this thread was on reddit

just think about it...

wareya, the reason you feel like no one "gets" your argument is not that we don't understand it. it's that it's full of all these mitigating factors and preconceived notions about how tf2 works that we don't accept as gospel without talking about them as well.

all of your posts have a bunch of subtext about what tf2 "ought to be" in a really abstract sense of that, and that's ridiculously subjective.

OHKs aren't fun (this is also why snipers are pretty annoying)

at least spies & kritz medics are possible to counter.

Watching a good pyro > Playing against a good pyro.

and a fuckin melee weapon isnt?

It's a lot harder to counter a spy that you don't know about than a pyro you don't know about until you see. And pyros deserve an unreliable instakill that requires you to be next the person after being set on fire. Pyro dps is awful minus the crit combos, which make up for it. Small niche of closed quarters combat being superior than other classes is fine. Still ridiculously annoying to play against because it's not standard. AWP in CS is still worse but I can live with it.

honestly I think the only reason I'm having trouble here is because I don't think "broken" means "unbalanced"
I agree with almost everything you guys are saying

well the only possible synonym your argument can have with "broken" is "annoying"

if by "annoying" you mean "doesn't fit in with anything else in the game and doesn't seem to belong" instead of "this fucks me over so I'm mad at it" then yes

Sometimes I purposely miss a rocket and they can still reflect it and kill me.

solution: don't shoot rockets at pyros (range)

all your problems are solved

what is fun tho is rocket jumping with a soldiers rocket and doing some neat 360 mctwist no scope or something

Your definition of "doesn't fit in with anything else in the game and doesn't seem to belong" seems to be synonymous with "this fucks me over so I'm mad at it". A billion things "don't fit in with anything else". Sniper? How does that fit? Piss Jar? A bow? Spies? Sentry guns? Jumping with rockets? Where the hell do you draw the line that Pyros are broken (apparently now it means doesn't fit in the game) compared to so many other things?

guys apparently fitting == realistic

No, not realistic. It's just that everything is wacky and "gimmicky". Pyro is hardly out of place. Laser weapons are though, you just placed out a broad statement saying it doesn't fit without saying how.

where the fuck did I say pyro is out of place, tell me

i could read my history assignment or i could read this soap opera

I meant the Pyro arsenal. I mean there are laser weapons and volcano axes which are much more out of place. Crit mechanics on the Pyro aren't out of place. Airblast isn't out of place. You still have yet to define what out of place is.

Also, drama/arguments are #1. Keep gotfrag alive.

the only thing out of place with pyro is the specific pair of combos axtinguisher/flare with degreaser in specific zoning situations; I never said anything about the rift axe or the bubblegun because consistency and art style have absolutely nothing to do with gameplay so even considering that for what I'm saying is fucking retarded.

out of place is in terms of gameplay; debuffs like jarate milk and bleeding make sense because they're similar to afterburn which was an original part of the game; being able to deny and punish any engagment except for super specific ones is completely unique and not considered in tf2's original balance design, so reasonable counters don't exist like they do for other aspects of the game that do that kind of denial. sentries, you have stickies and pipebombs and most classes can spam at them - they're stationary, immobile (originally) and you don't have to worry about them outside of vital chokes; heavies you have spies and snipers, and other classes can spam them down given (I'm going to stop mentioning spy because they're a general special counter that's countered by everything else); sticky traps have a very small area of power and can be knocked around and shot out and ubered through; none of these things are out of place because there's proper compensation for them in other parts of the game. pyro's situational utter denial isn't. it was tacked on and buffed to hell and given toys and not properly tested.

The solution to getting past a pyro is killing it. Not as hard as you think except on some rare maps at specific places which you should scout in advance. You're exaggerating the ability for pyros to deny an area so much. You know how to get past a heavy that's deny an area? Killing it or hurting it to the point where it can't stay. How to get past a sentry gun? Shoot it down. How to get past a pyro? Kill it. Just because airblast was added later and doesn't something new doesn't make it out of place. That being said, minicrits were totally out of place when introduced. No falloff damage and damage buff? Nothing was even close to that effect during the time. Well placed stickies aren't counterable by anything but uber or going away because they can be continually thrown into the area again (like pyro). And the demos don't even have to be close, where the pyro is at risk of dying. Also, you mention sentries deny vital chokes; so do pyros. Outside of close quarters they suck.

Just try running an ubered heavy into a pyro. If you're competent, the pyro is dead during the 2nd airblast. If you're a competent soldier, you can shotgun the pyro or wait for an airblast and shoot after and kill it with two rockets. Demos can force pyros to lose so much ammo by spamming stickies at them. Scouts can twoshot pyros if the pyro can airblast them, and also have the ability to move away after a single airblast if they didn't jump beforehand. I feel like you're trying to compare a pyro that will perfectly airblast at point blank every single rocket fired when in reality two soldiers shooting at a pyro desynced will kill it, demos will eat away the pyro's ammo like nothing, and scouts will twoshot a pyro or back away depending on the situation (fine for that matchup), and ubers will destroy pyros with basically any class.

I think it's annoying pyro can punish spam rockets so hard (easy to reflect, no falloff + extra damage). Those "clutch" close range reflects are pretty annoying too.

You can get around it by thinking a bit, but thinking sucks. bleh

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't even disagree with most of this shit but you seem to be completely ignoring my real argument and placing something else in my mouth

how many times are we going to do this

I'm talking about guaranteed weapon crit combos, you're bringing up perfect reflection and situations where the pyro is out of position which are completely irrelevant to my argument and no good positioning is NOT that rare

PS:

GG self conflicting argument

I don't understand, you were first saying broken now out of place and now I still don't understand. I read lines like "pyro's situational utter denial isn't" and then you claim I'm putting words in your mouth. If you stopped typing in hyperbole maybe you'd be clearer. Out of place in terms of gameplay to me makes no sense because you've switched from the combo of airblast and axe/flaregun to lines like utter denial and don't belong recently. You're making the least sense. Why shouldn't pyro have burst damage ability like a sniper rifle except only at close range where it's suppose to excel?

I'm not going to stop summarizing things I've already explained with hyperboles, jesus christ

Hey, look at all the weapons that still use minicrits that aren't banned. They were out of place and still are, but some don't break the game. The mechanic is "out of place" from the original gameplay but accepted. Other things like heavy KGB is hardly out of place. I don't think the razorback is out of place. I gave you a definition of something that is out of place that's new, but not everything new is out of place. Holy crap.

still haven't answered my point

HOW IS IT AN UTTER DENIAL IF IT ONLY WORKS IN 1V1S

tf2 was never designed around 1v1s

1v1s don't really dictate the balance of anything

I gave you a definition of something being out of place, but apparently you didn't pick up on it. I was talking about things not having proper counters in balance, at the same time as it being out of place, you should have been able to draw a fucking connection.

>Why shouldn't pyro have burst damage ability like a sniper rifle except only at close range where it's suppose to excel?
Because nothing else in the game makes up for it with a counter. There's no counter to movement control coupled with guaranteed crits. It's only broken in situations where the pyro's positioning is superior and they're doing a job of denial. Isn't that straightforward enough? I don't get what's hard to fucking understand.

mustard: the pyro's "never alone" either, you know, it's broken in most even encounters; group engagement? you can deal with that. but 1v1s happen. like anything that doesn't involve a demoman and then another powerclass, basically. the only single thing that counters a comfortable pyro is heavy, and they almost never cross paths outside of DM.

I don't get what's fucking hard to understand, at that range you can kill a pyro with any of the main classes except maybe demo and rocket jump out if you're a soldier if you don't want to kill it, double jump to dodge away as scout. Even if the pyro were to win most of the situations, it'd match it's roll as a close combat fighter who should dominate every other class at that range (it just so happens it is that combo).