Marissa asked why people bash HL, I made a quick post right before I ran out the door to work that got misunderstood for the last 8 hours.

There are a lot of people on the internet that just spit hate because it's the internet. Those were the only people I was talking about.

...

I don't think 6s should be scared of HL, all I was attempting to say was that the people that bash Highlander without good reason are in a way scared of HL. Guess I screwed that up *shrug*

Isn't highlander already larger in terms of players? You can pretty safely say it's already overtaken it so fearing any future "overtaking" is kinda ridiculous.

At worst HL bashing is elitism. Most bashing I see is disliking the gameplay (playing with the "annoying" classes more often) or thinking of it as diminished competition (lower skill ceilings in general, etc), which honestly I think is acceptable since different game modes and styles are for different people.

TF2 at its core is a game about specialists and generalists. That is at its core, the game and the mechanics operates the best when it's played like that. If you go into any high-level pub, with players who know what they're doing (they may not have amazing DM or huge technical skills, but assume they're using they're using their mics and have some semblence of co-ordination) there is a natural class balance that flourishes.

That class balance heavily favours classes like the soldier, scout, demo, heavy and medic, anyone who isn't completely pants-on-head retarded will see these classes are simply better at doing 90% of the things you need accomplish to win the game. Yes, there are a few snipers, engineers, spies but all those classes collectively make up a tiny percentage of the numbers, that's why they're specialists. Forcing a team to have as many specialists in the game as there are generalists will just make the game worse. Both to play and to spectate.

Now Valve has tried to address this issue by putting in unlocks that make it more viable to play full time spy, sniper, engineer but I think we can all agree that these unlocks are not fun to play against, especially when they were first introduced.

A lot of times when people debate weapons it's always the statistical balance that gets argued, but no one tries to argue about the weapon being NOT fun to play against. Why is that? Are we forgetting that this is a game and however balanced an item may be, if it's not fun to play with or against then it should be immediately banned?

We play TF2 for ourselves, we don't have some sort of huge spectator crowd behind us, we don't have huge sponsors behind us, what makes TF2 tick is the players. And if something isn't fun to play against, it should be banned.

Hence why people hate stuff like the mini-sentry, jaratee, wrangler, pre-nerf GRU-sandvich combo, pre-nerf enforcer/spycicle/DR combo, etc, etc. The list goes on. They aren't fun to play against, I think that should be a valid criticism and grounds for a ban.

A lot of these unlocks are also non-skill indexed. What I mean by that is that the skill required to overcome the unlock is not equal to the skill required to deploy it. Case in point, the wrangler, any idiot can equip it and take it out and swap between that and hitting the sentry. You've just gained yourself a 600hp sentry that can heal by hitting it with a wrench (building a sentry can hardly be classed as difficult). Now what do you have to do to kill it? Well firstly you most likely have to build an uber, then you have to co-ordinate with your demo or heavy and both of you need to stay alive for at least 40 seconds. Now those aren't really hard things to do, but they are much harder than what the engy has to do.

I mean all of the not-fun unlocks are like that, it takes more co-ordination to take down than it does to use.

Then there's the fact that Highlander is a defensively orientated game-mode. If you look at a 6's team with default classes, it excels at movement and sustained damage output. A highlander team excels at holding and stagnant play. You're trading having 2 scouts and 2 soldiers for having classes like the pyro, engineer and heavy, all who are excellent at holding points than getting points. And you also gain 2 unreliable pick classes in the sniper and spy.

Unfun unlocks, non-skill indexed items, defensively orientated team makeup, broken class composition.

I honestly feel like Highlander is being propped up by the terrible people who can ONLY play engineer, spy, heavy and pryo. If it weren't for these bads HL would die right off. No one good at the game would actually try to main engineer.

I think everyone understood you the first time, the reality that we shouldn't be afraid is so clear that noone really would be.

I think to any competitive player, the spirit and idea of competitive is to get better, improve, win and to learn how to beat the other players competing. To see a format which attempts all the same things and falls much shorter in all of those regards is why I personally, (and perhaps others agree,) would bash HL.

I've known a lot of people who play HL and a lot who play 6s, and having discussions with them before and after a season or equal time period, it is almost always extremely clear that the highlander players just aren't getting better at anywhere near the same rate. You might say that the time spent scrimming is the reason (which is one major contributor in my mind,) however my UGC 6s friends who scrim as infrequently as UGC HL teams improve much faster than their HL counterparts.

To me it's like being on a train with half my friends, parallel to a train going at one third the speed, containing the rest of my friends, if I want to keep the ability to play with/talk to/chill with the other half, I would need to convince them to join the train I'm on, or lose them in the past.

I don't quite understand what there is to be scared about. If you like HL, play it. If you like 6s, play it. If you're going to let those who talk before they think get to you, then I would have to say there's a bigger problem to deal with.

i love how someone earlier mentioned low level HLs are bind-spamming trolls because there's no difference in low level 6s, it's arguably worse from my experience.

that's a really close-minded viewpoint. i think the problem is so many people value DM over strategy that engineer, being almost strictly strat-oriented (though a good shotgun engie can get shit done) gets made fun of because of his "aimbots". 6s is just a way to escape the perceived "no-skill" classes, it's just kind of a childish thing, to stick one's hands over one's eyes and pretend these classes don't exist.

there's the argument that "this is slow, we need to speed up the game" but you run into problems when the game you're playing is slow by nature so you have to cut out classes.

a lot of 6s players are pretty scummy in the sense that they were fine with all these hidden sticky spots that valve fixed recently but probably would have bitched if they got killed with a huntsman arrow when something like the rocket launcher is 10 times as easy to use as the huntsman effectively aye yai yai

Highlander is taken much more seriously in NA than it is in EU. Most people in Europe who claim that 'Highlander is just an organised pub' are people that have played with no teamwork or strategies in a '6v6 all star only plays officials' highlander team or have not even played at all. Lots of teams that take highlander a bit more seriously have structure, tactics and teamwork - it's just people that claim Highlander is unorganised haven't actually played in a team properly. Something a lot of Europe is to blaim for, and another reason the NA Highlander scene is so much further ahead than the EU scene, as shown by the ETF2L Highlander Nations Cup.

Even if you dislike the fact that Highlander is a bit more hectic and less organised than 6v6, I don't understand the hate. Playing Highlander on a class you like is fun.

#93

Non-skill indexed items and defensive oriented go hand in hand when it comes to FPS. Defensive mechanics are basically always easier to use than they are to counter in any FPS I've ever played anyways. This is why Stopwatch maps have always historically favored the offense afaik. (also if people in pubs actually tryharded your "natural class balance" would be all demomen and medics 99% of the time sooooo)

As far as your last point goes, I only agree that Highlander as a whole is big because of all those players who love to play specific classes, but I'm not sure how that is a bad thing at all? It gives them a place to experience some more serious (than pubs) team oriented gameplay, and maybe they'll transition over to 6s eventually when they see how fun real team oriented play is like.

Your attitude is off putting though. Stuff like"If it weren't for these bads HL would die right off. No one good at the game would actually try to main engineer." has to be the worst attitude. Every single person who mains those classes could potentially be a 6s player, but they see shitty attitudes like that and why even bother? Obv this thread has some positivity to it so I don't mean that post exactly, but I see that kind of attitude in pubs towards pubbers who say they play Highlander as X utility and that's demoralizing. Actually the reason I took 2 years to even try 6v6 is because a bunch of troll 6v6 players had that attitude in the pub I was on and I just swore off competitive TF2 until I played a couple 6v9s and figured if Invite players could be nice and complimentary about my big dumb retarded utility class, then maybe everyone else won't be half bad and I should give it a shot. I'm glad I did (just wish I actually had time/money to play ESEA), but not everyone is going to have e-famous tf2 players sway their opinion like that. I'm sure the other people in the pub I was on probably swore off of it forever, over time that adds up to a lot of people who wind up hating 6v6.

Like idk man, people in both formats generally love this game. Don't need to be so disparaging about it.

I don't understand where you get that we value DM over strategy. Countless MGE videos, countless people willing to tutor individual players and even whole teams, the fact that teams scrim, etc. Strategy is the game, DM isn't.

But there's not actually any skill involved with engineer. Sentry placement is hardly "skill", let alone strategy. I'm not trying to bash you (if you play engineer), the class or any other people who main it in HL, but we have to be real about this eventually.

This applies even more so to a mini-sentry, and even more so a sentry gun with a shield.

The game we play isn't slow or fast by nature. It's as slow or fast as the people who play it make it.

How is something "10 times as easy" to use? Don't answer that.

I don't comprehend how you believe the rocket launcher is "as easy" as the huntsman. pls elaborate

18 players in a server automatically means chaos. Chaos breeds randomness. It could be argued that randomness happens in 6v6 as well--and it does, but it's not a component in -every- game. I would argue that UGC HL does require as much skill as 6v6 to play at a high level, but it's an entirely different kind of skill that is generally less dependent upon the ability to outplay the enemy attacking you (DM). Instead, you defeat them because your class pops them up in the air and has 37 different weapons that give guaranteed critical hits, or you have a gun that fires from a different position and has autoaim, etc.

In every 9v9 HL game, the following are all but guaranteed:
A player will get a backstab by stabbing an enemy in the face.
A pseudo-random mini-crit will occur at some point which will either trigger or stifle a push.
A pyro will ignite a cloaked or disguised spy by pure accident.
A perfect flank will be spoiled because one of the 9 players on the other team will be out of position.

Is it fun to play heavy and get headshot by a sniper when there is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent him from shooting you?
Is it fun to play scout and push only to find a sentry is in some random place which either kills you, weakens you, or gives away your otherwise perfect flank?
Is it fun to play medic and get cabered by a demo being an idiot?
Is it fun to play sniper and get focused by the enemy spy?
Is it fun to play engineer and have your buildings harassed by the spy?
Is it fun to play medic and get killed because your demo or soldier fired an explosive and a pyro intentionally or accidentally reflected it?
Is it fun to be a cloaked spy and get set on fire because you happened to walk around a corner where a pyro randomly walks through and clicks anywhere on his screen?
Is it fun to play soldier and be reflected/airblasted constantly by a pyro who then gets free criticals with any weapon he selects?
Is it fun to play medic and get stunned by a scout who accidentally hits a baseball at the right moment, then throws a guillotine causing you to drop the uber you couldn't even deploy due to the stun?

One of the required classes in HL has the role: "spin around randomly while holding m1 every 3 seconds to negate one of the other required classes."
One of the required classes in HL has the role: "right-click furiously to negate incoming explosive damage and to hopefully get critical damage with reflects."
One of the required classes in HL has the role: "run around building machines with 3 button presses (or less if you script it) that have autoaim and a potential for having 650hp).
One of the required classes in HL has the role which consists of going invisible and get instant kills on people who happen to be looking the other direction at that instant.

I think HL is a non-serious alternative to playing 6v6. I understand that many people take it very seriously, but for me, it's a joke and I play it in pugs because it's moderately less ridiculous than pubbing. I think it could be improved substantially with a new ruleset, and the vast majority of the randomness could be eliminated.

Scout
1) Soda popper - walking around for 13 seconds gives guaranteed mini-critical hits that have no damage falloff over distance. Gaining free crits can be controlled and can be transferred to secondary weapon as well. Run out? Run in circles for 13 seconds.
2) Bonk - 8 seconds of immunity (hello ubercharge?).
3) Crit-a-cola - gives guaranteed mini-critical hits and 25% speed boost.
4) Mad-Milk - Gives 60% of damage dealt back as health.
5) Pocket pistol - 140 base/210 buffed HP on a scout who is immune to falling damage.
6) Flying Guillotine - Gives guaranteed mini critical hits to players at long distances. Gives guaranteed hits to players who are stunned. Causes bleed in addition to the critical hits.
7) Sandman - Stuns enemies.
8) Atomizer - 3 jumps on a scout.
Soldier
9) Cow Mangler - Unlimited ammo that has guaranteed mini-criticals.
10) Beggar's Bazooka - Fires 3 rockets almost simultaneously.
11) Battallion's Backup - 35% damage resistance, full critical damage resistance.
12) Concheror - 35% of damage dealt returns as heals, 35% speed boost to teammates.
13) Reserve Shooter - Guaranteed mini-criticals.
Pyro
14) Right clicking causes enemies to lose 100% of their momentum and forces them into an upward arc that is identical 100% of the time.
15) Axtinguisher gives guaranteed criticals.
16) Backburner gives guaranteed criticals.
17) Flare gun gives guaranteed criticals.
18) Degreaser gives faster weapon swap making guaranteed criticals easier.
19) Detonator sets anyone on fire even if your aim is worse than terrible.
20) Third degree gives guaranteed criticals.
21) Phlogistinator gives guaranteed criticals and health.
22) Manmelter sets people on fire from across the map... even faster... and takes no ammo.
23) Scorch shot knocks players back and sets multiple players on fire by shooting the ground.
24) Reserve shooter gives guaranteed criticals.
Demo
25) Loch n Load - one-hits 125hp classes.
26) Ullapool Caber - Instantly kills medics (and anyone under 184 health) with no aim required.
Heavy
27) Natascha - Slows players.
28) Sandvich - Medic got hurt due to poor positioning? Give him free health! Heavy got hurt? Give him free health! ____ got hurt?! Give him free health!
29) GRU - Heavy is no longer speed penalized.
30) Fists of Steel - Bad positioning? No problem! Pull these out and retreat for free! Even a fully charged headshot will only do 270 damage.
Engineer
31) Sentry guns - Auto aim. Auto aim. Auto aim. Auto aim. Auto aim.
32) Frontier Justice - Guarantees criticals. How do you get criticals? Via the incredibly difficult task of deploying auto-aim machines of course!
33) Rescue Ranger - Heals auto-aim weapons from anywhere on the map.
34) Short circuit - negates explosives.
35) Gunslinger - Makes auto-aim machines build in 1 second. Makes auto-aim machine take 100 metal instead of 125. Gives engineer 25 extra health as well.
36) Wrangler - Makes auto-aim machine have double fire rate. Makes auto-aim machine have 300-650 health.
Sniper
37) Sydney Sleeper - Zoom for one second and hit an enemy, guarantee 8 seconds of mini-criticals on them (also nullifies spy cloak).
38) Machina - 173 damage for fully charged body shot that also penetrates enemies.
39) Jarate - Guaranteed mini-criticals with minimal aim.
40) Darwin's Danger Shield - 25 extra health as well as 15% damage resistance. Quick headshots don't kill you.
41) Cleaner's Carbine - Gives guaranteed criticals.
Spy
42) Enforcer - Tons of damage.
43) Diamondback - Guaranteed criticals after sapping a building.
44) Spy-cicle - Silent kills, immune to fire for 2 seconds after initial fire damage.
45) Dead Ringer - You already have invisibility based on a timer and invisibility based on movement. You even have a million percent extra invisiblity by using the le'tranger. Do you really need unlimited feigning and 300 health? No. Just no.

Why are these allowed? It is -never- fun to die simply because someone had one of these items equipped.

In 6v6, it's fun to play scout and die to a demo because you can say to yourself, "oh, I just approached him from the wrong angle and couldn't close in fast enough" or "I just missed my shots". It's then fun to correct the error and get the kill next time because you were clever and got the drop on the demo, or because you simply hit your shots while making him miss his shots.

It is -not- fun to go around a corner in HL and die to an engineer who just happened to have free criticals stored in his frontier justice so he happens to hit you for 180. Ditto the other situations where a winner is determined purely by loadout or luck.

It's not fun to lose a push in 6v6 because the other team had a heavy, engineer, and pyro; why would it be fun to play against them full-time?

Want to make HL less chaotic and introduce a more standard type of skill? Ban all the mini-crit weapons and all crit weapons that don't require something special (ie. backburner, spy knives, stock sniper rifle). Ban every pyro secondary other than shotgun. Ban the 45 weapons listed above. Make HL more about hitting shots and less about using gimmicky weapons to deal extra damage.

Hell, while you're at it, ban sentry guns. Make engineer about aiming and keeping teleporters alive. He has 200 pistol shots, dammit. He should use 'em.

:|

A competitive TF2 utopia is only a dream

fair

I'm sure mTs would see replacing their current Engineer for an Invite player (and their Pyro/Heavy/Spy) as a downgrade. There's actually quite a bit of strategy with Engineer building spots and on Payload maps especially Engineer is massively important and makes a big difference in how the game goes.

Sure, the Invite player will most likely play at a high level after some time, but that completely contradicts the whole "no skill/no strategy" thing. Alternatively, see #82.

these are terrible (and erroneous) knee-jerk assessments of weapons. i'm so sorry the diamondback is overpowered. play a different game if you don't want sentry guns.

you have a really narrow view of tf2. what i'm saying is "real". try playing stock engineer in a 5cp, it's grueling. engineer isn't just about sentry placement, an engineer that spams minis isn't going to get anything done (in a pub maybe). engies need to know when it's safe to haul, what placements are going to offer the best protection without being too vulnerable(often decided by a few inches), when to turtle or retreat leaving your buildings to be destroyed. do you build a tele at forward spawn or does the enemy team have enough momentum to push you back? and so on. yes you've got buildings to work for you but the best engineers do oh so much more micro-managing. plus, if your team's not on the ball, even a good engineer won't be able to get much done. if you're judging engineers off of dustbowl matches they aren't the most shining examples of good players.

and what's there to say regarding the huntsman, it takes much more skill than the rl to be effective at high levels, simple as that.

$

Those reasons more or less require common sense than any type of advanced thought. And trust me, I don't hate the class. However, I don't see any legitimate reason to believe the class requires any actual skill beyond the first few steps of learning how to play this game.

A class' responsibilities don't dictate whether or not that class takes any skill. Each class has a skill ceiling and the engineer's ceiling is significantly lower than most of the classes, on the exception of I would say only heavy, with pyro coming in close.

I really, honestly want to have this conversation with you but it's hard to figure out what to say to something like this. I'm getting the feeling that you believe because the rocket launcher has a reasonable splash radius, that a prediction weapon which works mostly off hoping you predicted correctly takes more skill. There's a clear difference between skill and a weapon that can pull off miracles if it hits something.

I can sit here and joke about "shoot feet, get kill heh", but in all honesty, the rocket launcher, along with most other preferred weapons, is as skilled as the player makes it. The skill involved here comes from the ability of the player. You know, like DM, positioning, movement and overall game sense. The huntsman more or less works with pseudo-skill. It's you hoping that either you predicted correctly at a short/medium distance, or hope someone walks into your shot at long range. Sure, the pipe launcher works the same way for the most part, but at least the pipe launcher doesn't have high potential to one shot every class. Peeking a corner with full charge, shooting an arrow in the medic's general direction across that section of the map and causing him/her to drop uber or flailing your mouse at a scout in front of you isn't skill of any sort.

The huntsman is definitely a fun weapon to use, but I will never sit here and try to tell someone that it's harder to use than the rocket launcher, scattergun, stickies, etc.

Do you think the Medic has a low skill ceiling, then? It's a little silly to judge individual skill ceilings when TF2 is all about class interplay. Plus, no other class has access to buildings, Engie's totally unique in those regards.

http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/1ltfbx/unpopular_opinions/cc2vfbj

Believe me, I recognize the utility and strength of the RL

I agree with Engineer being having the lowest skill ceiling, but Pyro and Heavy coming in close is very wrong. There is a very noticeable difference between the Pyros and Heavies in upper Platinum compared to those in mid or even lower Platinum, don't even get me started on lower divisions.

Wouldn't say there is much hate towards HL, I'd say people have their preferred game-mode and choose to play either in one or the other or both. Anyone who truly thinks 6v6 players perceive HL as a threat is extremely paranoid and over-protective of their preferred gamemode, anyone who actually is a 6v6 player and thinks HL is a threat is extremely close minded and unaware of what is happening in this game on a player-by-player level. Hundreds of people who started in HL moved to 6v6 for a variety of reasons you can only fathom to do with the weaknesses of the HL gamemode.

Both gamemodes have positives and negatives, for sixes a lot of the TF2 playerbase won't like it simply because there isn't a Pyro and Pyro is their favourite class - Not a weakness in the eyes of many a 6v6 player, but to a person who invests their time in that class, why would they want to play a gamemode where they can't/shouldn't play it 98% of the time? That is the big advantage of Highlander, it opens up competitive TF2 for everybody that plays the game, whether you're favourite class is Pyro, Heavy, Spy, Engineer, Sniper or the classic 6v6 classes, either way you have a competitive gamemode designed for you to come in and learn more about your class and play. Isn't that the point of competitive TF2? Anyone who wants to turn this into an "us vs them" scenerio is an idiot and is damaging the scene, sadly people do it but the hate towards Highlander is only really towards the gamemode itself opposed to the community (bad attitudes exist in both formats), I can fully appreciate why people would hate playing 9v9, but what 6v6 players don't appreciate it people have their reasons for hating 6v6 gamemode as well and they are the opposite values that 9v9 incorporates. (unlocks, class limits, class selection, map choices..etc).

Big problem with Highlander is there aren't enough people who contribute it and remain proud of their gamemode to put down coverage regularly in the form of articles, interviews, and just visiting forums and expanding the community. People who take it seriously are extremely closed off from the wider spectrum of the competitive community therefore people can only base their judgements off of what they read, watch and limited experiences of 9v9.

TL:DR - Both competitive formats are great in their own ways, both scenes should work together to be part of a "wider" competitive TF2 scene because a player playing competitive TF2 is better than a player playing public TF2.

kirby just because Engineer has the lowest skill ceiling doesn't mean it takes literally no skill/no strategy like you said previously. There's still an enormous difference between an Engineer capable of playing on a top team and a low div Engineer. Just like every other class you got some top Engineers who are REAL good, even if sometimes it is more subtle why they are better, and then the higher level Engineers who are very good but not the best by just a little bit, and then you got good, mediocre, bad, and awful players on the class. If it took no skill or no strategy then there wouldn't be a wide skill disparity and everyone would be capable of being a Platinum engineer (they definitely aren't).

All low skill ceiling means is if it were possible to flawlessly master a class (it isn't) Engineer would be the first one mastered. Engineer is more difficult than you give it credit for - not that isn't easy in the grand scheme of the game, but it's not THAT easy.

If 9v9 was tried with class limits of 2 and an ESEA whitelist, I think that that would yield some interesting results, supposing some necessary measures were taken (Still only one medic, maybe one demo as well).

I didn't say it took no skill. (Yes, I realized I said in an earlier post that "it doesn't take any actual skill", but I worded that poorly, which I corrected in the below quote)

My point here was that the class, at most, requires little knowledge of how to play it. It comes with the basic package. This involves how the engineer plays with his buildings, not general things such as DM, movement, etc. Every class requires those (on the exception of medic DM, which doesn't 100% matter), but that doesn't mean an engineer who can aim his shotty automatically takes the engineer class and places it on top of the "top skilled classes" list.

Side note: Positioning is different for almost every class. Positioning in this conversation comes with the common sense factor for the engineer. If you know how people play the map, then you're set on where you can put your stuff.

Yes, there is a difference between a low leveled engineer and a high leveled engineer. The reasons bastid gave me for what makes a good engineer is common sense that the high leveled engineer players have. However, the keyword there is "common sense". Have that and you're gold.

It is my opinion that the more "subtle" differences between good engineer players and bad engineer players can usually be applied to almost any class. Then again, these subtle differences you mentioned could be something other than what I'm imagining.

I kind of feel like this discussion went a lot deeper than it really needed to. My entire reason for having this talk was to get the point across that the class doesn't take as much skill as bastid is giving it credit for.

Why people bash 9v9? Pyro.

Interesting points but you didn't think all of them through:
Back stab looks like a face stab? Thats the mechanics of Lag Compensation. On the server it is a perfectly good stab but on the screen of the spy and your own screen it may look like a face stab.
Again with the "random" mini crits, what are you saying? Are you talking about pyros being decent at hitting flares? Or maybe a scout using the soda popper or something?
It's not random, good pyros check spots that spies frequent, really it is up to the spy to dodge the pyro.
Players out of position? Guess what that happens in 6s too!

Any class can avoid snipers, and you have several others that are dedicated to killing them: Scout, Soldier and Sniper.
Most sentries aren't in random places around the map. There is a very standard meta to HL sentry placement. It may vary some but it is not normally game changing.
I main med in Gold HL I have never seen a demo jump me with a caber. Sorry that you had a bad experience in a Lobby.
I can guarantee you that the Enemy spy is not focusing you as sniper. Although you are a bonus, he is looking for the combo classes to pick: Demo, Heavy, Med and sometimes Engi (While he is defending).
Most Engineers have their sentries near the combo, the combo also has a pyro with them. If your sentry gets sapped then it is every ones fault that is around the sentry, because they didn't check for spies. ***CHECKING FOR SPIES MEANS TURN AROUND EVERY 3-4 SECONDS***
When would a pyro ever unintentionally reflect a rocket/pipe? Good pyros have fast reaction times and can actually AIM the reflected projectile.
Again pyros don't randomly spy check.
Just because the pyro is decent at hitscan and projectile shooting (Reserve Shooter and Flaregun) doesn't mean you cant kill him.
Your last point is the ONLY one I agree with. Yes it would be very annoying if someone did this, sadly it doesn't happen often and if they hit it than they had some pretty sick aim.

tl;dr Stop complaining about game mechanics (backstab looks like facestab), Stop complaining about the other team having a an "annoying" class, you have one as well. There is a set meta in HL that 99% teams follow. Pyros do showcase individual skill, they use hitscan as well as projectile weaponry. Literally just look behind you every few seconds, makes it harder for the spy to get you.

If your going to -Frag me please just leave a post as to why. I would like to know you disagree with me.

Probably because eXtine's been doing shit for the game since you first logged into a competitive TF2 forum??!?!??!

Fuck whatever his opinion is, the man doesn't need to defend what he has done in the past, to attack him for putting effort into the game just because of a few posts is disappointing.

Stalin has been around since the mathackers

He also made a good point that eXtine failed to read the thread and made a baseless assumption.

You're trying to teach a Plat+ demo/sniper(whatever smaka plays nowadays) your shitty version of the gold metagame.

backstabs are pretty random anyway
it's 50/50 whether the medic holding uber decides to do a 180 or not while the spy clicks on him

dishonest spy mains will probably -frag this