is this some sort of sly ploy to get more people involved with tf2 tightrope?

....Maybe. :)

Would you, Toad?

Because this is coming from someone who thinks the gunslinger is fine for comp play, no.

You'll always have the issue of coming to a decision on what is 'fixing weapon issues'. You'll never get everyone to agree on it. For example: You want gunslinger in comp play. I don't.

balancing a weapon for competitive play is different from the rest of the game

most of the time we ban weapons for low skill ceilings not because they're imbalanced

we want weapons that are alternatives and make the game broader; not items that slow down the game and make you slam your desk every time its used

there are weapons that simply will never be adjusted officially just to accommodation competitive play

I'd rather see us continue to use what valve releases and just ban the stuff that doesn't fit into our 6v6 SOLDIER, MEDIC, SCOUT, DEMO game

If this post wasn't targeted for 6v6 and rather for the game in general (i.e., 12v12 public servers) then yes, some work could be done by the community

http://i.imgur.com/CACAm.png

http://i.imgur.com/wVD4W.png

this is a good argument against disabled dmgspread but sure as hell beats getting 1 piped

i agree
i just wish valve compensated for the differing average DPS with nodmgspread, making it work 100% how it [should] (give the most likely damage rather than the base damage as it does now)

I had a feeling that this would come up. I'm still facepalming over that thread so it would be best to just forget that as I'm not a dumbass that thinks linearly. The purpose of this thread was to establish whether or not this forum would like to give feedback to a community-run mod, not to critique others because of disagreements.

And just fyi, I have always thought that the Gunslinger could use some changes. I just didn't think that comp players had listed it as something so utterly horrible.

I agree, people are people and people disagree.

But a majority agreement is very possible.

In order to make a well balanced and well designed game you need a lot of iteration and a cohesive "game plan" for what you want the game to be like, you need a vision (fuzzy or not), focus, and goals.
vanilla tf2 had that. the weapons that were added don't, and whoever tries to fix them without the experience it takes to realize how to go about it, also won't.
however, polling for what people would individually do to make the shit that's not "pure vanilla" balanced? that's interesting; discussion is great. just don't think it will lead to a good promod like CPMA was.

This is targeted at everyone who plays TF2.

Everyone.

6v6, 9v9 HL, 12v12... whatever format you play at, I like to think you should have a say in the balance of the game as it was meant to be played in more than just pubs.

I don't want to go into specific details, but I think that if we talked to one another and worked together, we could end up much better off, weapon-wise.

wrangler

There are some large issues like that, yes, but pubbers aren't all bad and there are a number who dislike the Wrangler. I think we could come to an agreement somewhere along the line that results in a loss of that particular issue.

It's not exactly a Promod.

It's a community mod, and "community" does not exclude feedback from skilled players.

The ultimate problem is where do you draw the line though? Do you balance to stock? in which game pretty much every melee is scrapped and pubbers hate it.

Or do you build something that is balanced a little bit better, but not truly balanced, in which case it's pretty damn subjective, and you'd need an absurdly large testing group to actually make it work.

I don't have all the answers on demand, Toad.

I'd prefer a mix of both, because I personally feel that stock isn't exactly perfect and could use a few changes here and there, but opinions vary from person to person.

The point of this thread is to discern whether or not people would be receptive to the idea of a mod that fixes the game, not to discern specifics.

Scout:
- Soda popper? Remove the hype, or remove the reload speed boost. One or the other. Having both is rather broken. Will be banned in 6s regardless.
- Lower the shortstop's reload speed a bit. A nerf was necessary before, but this it's a bit too long now. It should essentially be a more combat-friendly revolver-like weapon.

- Give the cleaver fire vulnerability, an HP penalty, or outright lower its damage. 50 is too much for a throwaway "free damage" weapon. Removing bleeding would have the same effect, but less obnoxious, and it's supposed to be obnoxious.
- Give the winger an extra bullet or two and a buffed reload speed. Keep its DPS after reload lower than the stock pistol, but make its packet damage more useful.

- Give the wrap assasin* a weapon switch speed penalty, or remove random crits from it. This helps pubs a lot. *(that's the name of the ornament thing, right?)
- Make the Fan O'War's marked for death only last as long as jarate, get "sped up" by healing as most effects are, and make it go away on medcab touch. Basically, fix it.

Soldier:
- The Direct Hit is a fine weapon, but it can 1-hit-kill scouts at 125 HP right now. That might be an issue, but I don't know how to tackle it.
- Liberty launcher needs a splash or damage penalty. I don't mind the projectile speed alone, its just the fact that it's a direct upgrade in terms of landing shots up to the third rocket.
- Remove the knockback from the Beggar's Bazooka overload; only demoman should be able to airpogo.

- Change the "20% base damage against buildings" on the cow mangler/bison to something like 50% or 67% instead.

- Make the Battalion's Backup charge faster.
- Give the Reserve Shooter a fourth shot (make the minicrits last longer if necessary) and make it only affect explosive/airblast knockbacked players, as well as not affecting groundstalled players.

Pyro:
- Fix the pyro's god damned weight; it was lowered insanely with the Detonator buff to make it work better, but it altered the balance of bouncing pyros around with explosives - they surf them better than scouts right now.
- Maybe just maybe the degreaser's airblast should be altered. It's too useful to push people around with it right now - I can literally shoot someone with the shotgun, take the degreaser out, and then shoot them again with the shotgun, within the span of around three shotgun shots. There are a bunch of very minor annoyance issues with pyro that stem from the Degraser's affect on other weapons, but I have no idea how or if it's possible to fix any of them without fucking Pyro over. I love playing Gas Jockey pyro, though.
- I don't know whether it already does this, but the Phlog taunt should not absorb critical hit damage.

- Same Reserve Shooter changes as with soldier.
- Make the Scorch Shot projectile only able to hit individuals one time.
- Give the flaregun rampup (reverse falloff), including to its critical damage, to reduce its close range
damage without harming snipes.

- I want axtinguising hits to only do 150 damage, but that's like, my opinion, man.
- Remove the random crits from the Powerjack.
- And the Third Degree. Make it so this one can't be crit boosted, either.

Demoman:
- Give the Loch-n-Load rampup to reduce its close range damage without harming snipes.

- Take away the Heads damage buff from the Splendid Screen, so that it ALWAYS does its base damage on impact, with any sword, including a maxed heads eyelander.

- Give the Persian Persuader's charge recharge rate buff to the Booties instead.

Heavy:
- Remove EITHER the damage or spinup nerf from natascha.
- Give the Huo-Long Heater a damage, refire rate, or windup nerf.

- Give a weaponswitch speed buff to the Black Market Business set.

- Maybe reintroduce the health drain to the GRU, but make it have a lasting effect like the minicrits currently do.
- Prevent the Fists of Steel from absorbing critical hit damage. (fully charged headshots should be able to kill anything in the game)
- Fix the Holiday Punch "backstab" detection; I know already that it's broken.

Engineer:
- Remove the crit-add for assists on the Frontier Justice.
- Make the Widowmaker use up 45 metal to fire.
- Remove the uber drain from the Pomson.

- The wrangler. A lot can be done for this.
Some combination of the current features is what currently makes it "broken":
- "More health than a heavy"
- Unlimited aiming range (yes I know it has spread, but that doesn't subvert this point)
- No skill requirement for use; "being there" slows the game down, without it being a fundamental element.
- You can hold it out forever with no downside
And some of the following changes might fix it:
- Seperate the shield and joystick into seperate weapons.
- Give it a charge that behaves how the Spy has a Cloak meter, but without the ammo restoration.
- Restrict the joystick aim to the normal sentry radius.
- Make it so you can't repair it while it's wrangled.

- Minisentries are also a thing.
"toogood"s:
- Just "being there" alters the way the game is played, without it being a fundamental element.
- Denies jumpers "perfectly"
- "Free throwaway aimbot pistol"
Possible fixes for some combination of the above:
- No knockback (from the sentry of course)
- Larger hitbox
- More dangerous/risky deployal
- Higher metal cost
- In addition to the above, fix the Gunslinger's "crit storage" bug.
- Increase the Jag's building speed buff, make it "add" more metal to a building per hit, and give it a mild to heavy weapon switch speed penalty.

Medic:
- Give the Quick Fix an extra toy - slow AOE healing on uber? Ability to overheal on uber? Faster reload on uber?

Sniper:
- Make charged headshots "penetrate" the Croc set's headshot resistance.
- Remove the Machina's penetration.

- Make the Razorback recharge.
- Lower the scoped speed penalty on the Cozy Camper.

Spy:
- Give the Saharan Spy set a more hurtful downside, replacing the current one - how about inability to see enemies' health?

- Give the L'Etranger a refire penalty instead of a damage penalty.
- Make the diamondback give more crits per successful sap; maybe give them on backstabs, too?

- Give 50% cloak on Big Earner backstab, instead of 30.
- Make the Spy-cicle's "fireproof" only apply to afterburn, not direct flame damage, either thru the same mechanisms as the Pyro's "fireproof" or by altering the current spycicle fireproof; the decision has a relevant effect.

- Make the Red-Tape recorder "store" metal in the sapped buildings, so that the engie only loses time, not ammo; Also give it a little "windup" time before it begins de-building.

what I mean is, you're asking a competitive community who hold paramount 6v6. This is not comparable on some levels to the rest of the game.

Seeing as this is the most active rationally-leaning TF2 forum at the very moment... Asking us isn't that far fetched.

the main reason i got into 6's was because of shitty unlocks so yeah i support it.

too many unlocks can make the game pretty random and actually hurt strategy more than help depending on the unlocks in question. balancing jarate/milk, quick fix, heavy/engy/gunslinger/GRU/sandvich, and probably pyro a little seem like good ideas. also flame of war 2012

the only time promod ever worked was for cod4, and that was the only game. then the NA scene died and I'm pretty sure euro is barely hanging on. we don't want that to happen as we're already small enough as it is.

@23: Quake 3 CPMA is a promod.

i forgot that existed. whooooops

Revert permanently back to 119th update, everything that came out after that update is shit, no buds no unusuals, a base 7gb game without massive fps drops and broken weapons

But this forum is also home to a group of HL players large enough their own forum section and non-competitive players who, like me, come here to read what you guys have to say. It's not just 6v6 responses I will gain from threads here.

Plus, this won't exactly be the only place I ask for feedback. I've got a few other forums lined up that I just haven't gone to yet.

@wareya: Save the suggestions for the thread I'll be making some time in the future, yeah?

@prestige: I agree, but I think that as long as there aren't major issues with the weapons, a little variety can't hurt the game.

@kirby: This isn't a Promod. This is a community mod that seeks to balance the game so every form of play is balanced and fun without disregarding opinions because of skill levels.

@e: No. Maybe revert the Heavy but I think we can live with hats and (to-be) balanced weapons.

>a group of HL players large enough their own forum section
more like we have a section for HL so that people don't have an excuse to shitpost about HL in HL threads

http://i.imgur.com/XHBte.png

>(to-be) balanced weapons
you make me laugh

There's also that, but there are also a large number of HL players in this forum.

You say that like it's impossible to make changes to weapons that a majority of people can agree upon.

Pretty sure someone has already/is making/ has released a mod along similar lines of this thread. Can't find it though.

bhop + quick weapon switching in 6s came to mind when I saw these

"naa we good cuz"