valve doesn't want to support 6v6 anyway, Robin said it was too stagnant and that they'd rather support highlander

He thinks it's stagnant because we don't use different weapons.

robin walker is a dumb cunt and we should not try to be pandering to him, it won't make a difference, valve will not do shit

Idk about him, but I've been seeing more black box, conch, and vaccinator (I'm pretty sure some team was using it in a scrim).

And because we don't use all the classes

Though it is mostly due to weapons. I don't know though as I'm just a noskill shitter but I feel like pick/ban just doesn't work with tf2 as Skeej pointed out. Also it took Valve six years to even say how they may support tf2, I don't think Robin really knows what's best for the metagame as he says himself.

I like how Robin Walker says TF2 needs to innovate with weapons and uses DotA 2 as an example, a game with what like 120 heroes that have different abilities and can make use of different items in different ways, often sharing items between heroes whereas TF2 is 90% cosmetics or gimmicky weapons among 9 (usually 4 though) classes with few multiclass weapons. Also TF2 has innovation in different areas, we have a good number of maps to play whereas so far as I know, DotA 2 only has one.

Isn't that obvious though? He said he wants to "incorporate more alternate weapons into competitive play" and that's pretty much opposite of what 6v6 wants. All those people on pub servers that enjoy playing sniper and spy would get shouted at in 6v6 and there is not much alternating between weapons in 6v6 (not there is a lot of that in HL, most people will use similar loadouts but I think there is more variety than in 6s).

About pick&ban, some weapons in tf2 alter gameplay and classes way too much - which is probably why Robin said "something like". To give an example, imagine one team banning Kritz, Dead Ringer and Degreaser. If we decide to make some "protected weapons" from ban, it's not really true pick&ban system, but on the other side banning Degreaser just wrecks pyro as a class on any comp level, Spy without DR or any other watch is seriously hindered, and banning any medigun reduces amount of possible strategies - opposite of what we want although it might bring something new and unknown I assume most teams wouldn't risk that. Banning stock items would be also impossible even though it's actually possible in the game (medieval mode does it), but we can't alienate new players in the game that may not have all unlocks from this system, so strategies like banning Stickybomb Launcher which is something that would be interesting in my opinion could not happen.

said that, if we could make system that alternates stagnant system and overcomes problems mentioned, it would be very interesting.

There's no point to having new maps in dota because the map layout will most likely be the same because that's what the same is based around (having a mid, having a jungle, having an offlane, etc) where as tf2 is an fps game. FPS games use different maps, so that's a bad example.

But I agree with what everything else you said. TF2 doesn't need some pick/ban system because that is completely pointless. The weapons that we currently use in 6s and the weapons that are banned are used and banned for a reason.

So if Robin would put in a lobby matchmaking system that uses some kind of pick/ban thing I don't see the point because ugc/etf2l/esea/whatever else isn't going to use that so it'd just be confusing for new players getting into leagues.

I don't think it's really different than your general 5cp map having a mid point, two second points and two lasts, with usually a choke, a more open area, and a flank route to link two points. You can keep the lanes and the towers and whatever else the same, but with different routes between. That said, I could be talking out of my arse because I'm by no means a moba player.

and because he has no fucking clue what a good competitive fps is comprised of.

the less "blind guessing" there is the less variance there is in what you can expect from a given push/hold. this forces players/teams to simply play better and over time raises the skill ceiling.

once you have to start trying to guess what secondary both soldiers are running, on top of the possibility of off class shenanigans you havent spotted yet (spy, sniper, delayed heavy, etc) are coming with a push, the game is going to be incredibly frustrating.

it seems like the folks at valve want 6's to play out like some promo video where you have a conch soldier running dh and a quickfix medic flying in the sky with him instead of having a quality competitive fps game that's continuously raising the skill ceiling by steadily improving with (mostly) vanilla weapons. quake didn't need gimmicky shit, why do we?

also let's be real, valve could use 3 months of manco store profits to host an international-esque tournament and tf2 would be fucking FLOODED with tons of new players, sponsors, etc. and the game would actually get a legitimate shot at being a "real" esport. they could even do the compedium style thing they did with dota so future tournaments would be totally crowd funded. but they wont.

If anything it would have to be picking the weapons that are allowed, not the weapons that are banned. There are too many possible unlocks any class could be using even after you choose to not allow a few, and then you end up at the same old rock paper scissors battle (similar to what marmaduke just said) of who has the unlocks that better counter the weapons the other team is using.

Of course, if you choose to allow weapons instead of ban weapons then you run into full time GRU heavies and stuff like that. Weapon/class combos that are too good to pass up so everyone would run them causing the game to be slow and boring to watch/play.

We're in a strange spot here, us 6v6 players, we have a game that we've chiseled down to something that is fast and fun. However, for it to become as popular as we want it to be we would need to water it down quite a bit, and I don't think that's a good idea. Personally, I believe we should continue on with our strict whitelisting because that's what makes 6v6 so fast/fun, and a consistent ruleset across seasons is something you see in every actual sport (and e-sport). Accept that highlander is the more popular format (and be OK with it since it's quite literally TF2 at it's most pure form), that way we don't have to dilute the 6v6 game that we all know and love in a desperate attempt to gain more players.

i thought it could be a mixture of both, e.g. ban some unlocks then choose what ones to allow from the unbanned ones

id love to see a captains mode sort of gamemode in tf2, as long as it doesnt make the game slow

Pick/ban works in dota because both teams can't use the same hero.

In tf2 each team can use the same weapons, so banning weapons limits both teams. It doesn't make the game more diverse, it just limits both teams. You could also just ban gunboats/escape plan and fuck over all the soldiers.

Real talk, banning weapons would result in one of two things: the same handful of extremely broken weapons banned every single game (i.e. what we already have with whitelists), or games completely ruined by team captains trolling.

This game comes down to a few simple things: aim, movement, teamwork. Let's keep it that way.

pick ban can't really work for 6s because all of tf2s weapons fall into three categories:
downright awful (phlog, liberty launcher)
sometimes viable (direct hit)
useable all the time (stock weapons/conch/wrangler stuff like that)

and when you start playing pick/ban where each team has like 5 item bans no one bans the shitty weapons, they ban all the stuff that is considered really good, an example could be like gunboats

now you've just put one player on each team out of his comfort zone (unless you're wonderwall or memphisvon) and they will most likely not do as well, and this could affect the outcome of the game.

and the solution to this is what? to setup a list of items classes need to function correctly, well that's like the stock loadouts of every class (kritz/xbox/gunboats/escape plan/basher) and then all of the sudden you have the old 6s again because there's no reason to use other weapons over these already cream of the crop weapons

if valve wants to put pick/ban in 6s they need to balance all the weapons accordingly, but then that messes with highlander and now you're back to square one.

robin walker/valve forgot that tf2 is an fps

they can eat shit

CS has been the same game for 10+ years and they are complaining that comp tf2 is stale?!

I dunno... maybe if they stopped making stupid weapons that get shit on by their vanilla counterparts--or in some cases even early TF2 unlocks--then maybe we would start using more weapons.

I get it, they want players to have a variety of ways to play each class so long as it fits with the class' gimmick. But there comes a point in which they have to think to themselves that the weapons they're releasing are far inferior to what they could be making.

Do they ever consider the fact that you can easily put a negative effect on a weapon that isn't something like "no random crits"? It's year 7 for this game, do they really think that many people enjoy random crits anymore? I'm surprised they were even ever a thing, but I guess I can see why they would be.

My point is that Valve really, really needs to reconsider what weapons they put in the game. At this point it seems like their thought process goes mainly into the weapon design. The Crusader's Crossbow is an example of a good weapon. It's fairly new and unfortunately drowning in the bad weapons that came out with and after it. You're making the class more versatile while not having the weapon take away from what the class is used for, what it does. In fact, it allows you to do a little more of something you don't usually do as medic, which is clearly dealing damage. You ALSO get to heal with it. It's a win/win.

But then we get something like the Cow Mangler. A fucking laser launcher that's so far incredibly inferior to the Rocket Launcher alone. I don't understand what the point of even releasing this weapon was other than to fit some stupid theme that came along with it.

You want us using more weapons? Start making weapons that don't suck. You were able to do that once, but lately lol

All unlocks need to be designed to reward one of these three things.

Look at the unlocks that are widely used
gunboats: reward good movement
crossbow: rewards aim
boston basher: rewards aim, rewards teamwork by giving scout a way to build
black box: rewards aim
loose cannon: rewards good aim, is one of the best sidegrades in the game
winger: rewards movement

The two outliers are pain train and escape plan, but these weapons provide significant downsides that make them balanced.

Shit like the atomizer, sandman, cow mangler, guillotine, pocket pistol, vita-saw, solemn vow, wrangler, gunslinger, degreaser, powerjack, researve shooter, soda popper, GRU. They reward you for simply equipping the item or they provide such a big advantage that there's no reason to not use them. Some of them also force the other team to run them if they want to compete on an even playing field with you.

But all of these items are balanced in pubs/highlander. The only way 6s can have unlocks while still remaining fun and fast paced is for there to be a separate list of unlocks or weapon stats specifically made for 6s, but that will never happen.

I have a hard time explaining this concept to people but that's a pretty good way to put it.

I'd like to share an excerpt from TF2's developer commentary;

"Characters are the most important piece of art in a multiplayer game, so that is where we spent most of our effort. We developed a read hierarchy for player models, prioritizing the information that players needed to be able to read merely by looking at the model. Our hierarchy was this: first, what team they're on, second, what class they're playing, and third, what weapon they're wielding. Team readability was addressed by adopting an overall color palette for each team, picking warm colors for RED and cool colors for BLU. Class readability was addressed through the character's silhouette. Unique silhouette and animation shapes are more identifiable at far distances, and across a broader range of light levels, than any amount of other visual detail on the model. Finally, the weapon was highlighted through the textures. The areas of highest contrast, which attracts player's eyes, are all focused around the chest area of our character models, right where they hold their weapon. In addition, the subtle gradient from darkness around the character's feet, to the bright areas around the chest, also helps draw the player's eyes to the weapons."

The original TF2 team understood the importance of being able to read and predict your opponents which enables you to correctly counter them, this fosters an environment where the team with the better coordination and prediction would win. All of that goes out the window when you introduce all these dumb fucking unlocks. Degree of predictability is necessary to a fast paced, competitive environment. Look at CS, you have a vast arsenal to choose from but you have to buy them with resources; this adds the very important game mechanic of economy to the game and it rewards the team that is able to predict the other team's arsenal and be able to counter it effectively and efficiently. Having large amounts of unlocks to choose from without any repercussion, such as losing money like in CS, is an absolute terrible game mechanic if you want to foster a competitive environment. It stops becoming about who is the better team and more about which team is better at cheese plays. This in turn fosters a slower, less competitive environment.

The euros had the right idea when they banned all unlocks but the trick is to only allow unlocks that increase the skill ceiling or make the game more fast paced/better. You shouldn't allow an unlock just because it isn't OP. This is why I'm an advocate of a very tight and well maintained whitelist of actually GOOD unlocks that improve the game. That list being or close to; pain train, gunboats, equalizer, crossbow, kritz, ubersaw and basher. All of these unlocks either increase the skill ceiling or increase the pace of the game.

i resent the new tf2 team for destroying such a beautiful game

maybe if they actually balanced the new items

because everybody would like to see Natasha and sandman in their game lol

I couldn't agree more, so many of the unlocks valve added are just crutches for new players or reward being bad. We need more unlocks like the direct hit the give you a bonus if you are good enough to use it, which will in turn motivate people to get better at TF2 rather than running phlog pyro for a hundred hours and then quitting because they reached their skill ceiling.

i would fucking love to have a conversation with robin walker about tf2. i'd ask the hard hitting questions.

Maybe if they actually made new items.

????????????????????

pls god no

them rebalancing weapons is literally the best thing they have ever done because it kills two bird with one stone

it gets rid of shitty unlocks, and makes new interesting weapons.

of course this has only happened to like the Loose Cannon and Soda popper but yeah